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2008-01-18 11:42 AM

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Subject: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

Like most, my schedule dictates that long rides and long runs happen over Sat/Sun.  Usually get in anywhere between 6-10 hours on the weekend (last weekend was 12.5!).

I need to be more vigilant about rest days, really want to avoid burnout. Do the BT experts recommend taking a day off before two longer efforts, or after?  Any phyisological benefits of either?

I've been leaning towards before, so the longer efforts are fresh, and getting some sort of reduced effort in on Mondays, to get used to training on tired legs.



2008-01-18 12:08 PM
in reply to: #1164070

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?
I only take rest days (as in a complete day off) only when the body tells me I need one or when life gets on the way of training, otherwise is training everyday for me. Unload sessions on the other hand I schedule one or twice a week (depending how many hours and how intense I am training) and unload cycles every 16 to 21 days
2008-01-18 12:13 PM
in reply to: #1164070

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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

Jorge, can you define what an "unload" session means to you?

Thanks

2008-01-18 12:23 PM
in reply to: #1164070

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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

If you're going to take one, I would think after is generally better.  Take the recovery after the training stress has been applied. 

But I'm sure you can design a program to work either way.  I like to swim on Mondays & Fridays which acts as both rest and recovery for/from a long weekend.  If the weekend isn't too bad (and I can manage it timewise) then I also may do a shorter run on either/both those days.

2008-01-18 12:37 PM
in reply to: #1164070

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Master
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?
Im like Jorge i suppose, i take a rest day if my body tells me i need one - this month however, i've been doing a lot of skiing (i think i'll have about 12 days by the end of the month, for this month) so those are kind of like rest days.
2008-01-18 12:50 PM
in reply to: #1164198

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

It's Friday - Happy Rest Day for me! My plan calls for rest PRIOR to the big volume days (Sat and Sun) and swim on Monday.

Interestingly, I just noted today how I start to look forward to these rest days and that they invigorate me for the long days ahead. Also, it's more a mental necessity than physical at this point but I'm sure as volume increases that (the physical rest)  will become just as important. 



2008-01-18 12:51 PM
in reply to: #1164070

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Master
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

I take mine on Fridays before long workouts. I give that day to my husband and our friends. Mondays are usually not too intense, usually a recovery type workout or something easy. The bulk of my speed/strength work gets done Tues-Thurs.

Worked well last year. I really look forward to Fridays and having time to go to dinner, hang out with friends, etc. Mondays wouldn't work too good for my social life.

It's all about balance!

2008-01-18 1:04 PM
in reply to: #1164278

Champion
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?
When I was doing "super weekends," my rest day would always come on a Monday. I only rested every other Monday, though. I don't think I ever actually needed the day off, but it was good as I was usually feeling tired at that point (i.e., I was more tired on Monday than on Friday) and so it was nice to sleep in. That's how my schedule was written, but if given the choice of when my rest days are scheduled, I would definitely go with after the super weekend.
2008-01-18 1:15 PM
in reply to: #1164306

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

Correct me If I'm wrong Lauren, but weren't those "Super Weekends" in prep for a HIM? Undoubtedly, they will be more "super" for an IM

I'm in the camp that says training 6 days in a row than resting on Friday will provide me the recovery necessary to get the most out of my Super (Duper) Weekends.

Admittedly, just following a plan. I think my cool-aid is just a differnt color than yours

 

LaurenSU02 - 2008-01-18 2:04 PM When I was doing "super weekends," my rest day would always come on a Monday. I only rested every other Monday, though. I don't think I ever actually needed the day off, but it was good as I was usually feeling tired at that point (i.e., I was more tired on Monday than on Friday) and so it was nice to sleep in. That's how my schedule was written, but if given the choice of when my rest days are scheduled, I would definitely go with after the super weekend.



Edited by rollinbones 2008-01-18 1:17 PM
2008-01-18 1:29 PM
in reply to: #1164070

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?
Monday is rest day for me.  Friday's is almost always a swim.
2008-01-18 1:37 PM
in reply to: #1164070

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Master
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

I generally take it easy on Friday - swim only.  Then on Monday I'll do easy bike or run and strength training.  Depending on how I'm feeling on Monday, I may leave out the leg strength training and do only upper body. 

TJ



2008-01-18 1:37 PM
in reply to: #1164337

Champion
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

Yes, they were only for a HIM. Are you saying that I am a wuss for having taken a rest day every 14 days and for being a little tired on Monday (those 90+ degree and humid training days are the ones that always did me in) ?

Undoubtedly, the super duper weekends associated with IM training will be tougher, but I will also have an additional year of training under my belt. I'm also going to try to do a lot of my long runs midweek. I've started that already and will see how well I can handle it when the runs get longer.

rollinbones - 2008-01-18 2:15 PM

Correct me If I'm wrong Lauren, but weren't those "Super Weekends" in prep for a HIM? Undoubtedly, they will be more "super" for an IM

I'm in the camp that says training 6 days in a row than resting on Friday will provide me the recovery necessary to get the most out of my Super (Duper) Weekends.

Admittedly, just following a plan. I think my cool-aid is just a differnt color than yours

 

LaurenSU02 - 2008-01-18 2:04 PM When I was doing "super weekends," my rest day would always come on a Monday. I only rested every other Monday, though. I don't think I ever actually needed the day off, but it was good as I was usually feeling tired at that point (i.e., I was more tired on Monday than on Friday) and so it was nice to sleep in. That's how my schedule was written, but if given the choice of when my rest days are scheduled, I would definitely go with after the super weekend.

2008-01-18 1:50 PM
in reply to: #1164070

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?
Unload days usually are easy training days. IOW you still do easy training and just stress your body just abit to enahnce the recovery process, but not too otherwise I will just induce more fatigue. An easy session usually is a short low intensity session like a short 20-30 min swim or an easy 20-40 min spin. Runs are not really that easy unless you are a seasoned athlete and doing lots of running a week, otherwise skip running on those days.

I usually schedule unload days after high intensity (Threshold) or long sessions (2+hrs). I’ll also schedule unload or maybe even a day off before testing days.

2008-01-18 1:53 PM
in reply to: #1164408

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

No, no, no. Didn't mean to imply any wussiness Nor did i say "only" a HIM. My point was that the volume will increase substantially and that rest either before OR after would be beneficial ( i just think more benefical before). And in the OP's case he actually logged 12 hours last weekend. I'm thinkin a rest day BEFORE and AFTER a weekend like that may be in order

 

LaurenSU02 - 2008-01-18 2:37 PM

Yes, they were only for a HIM. Are you saying that I am a wuss for having taken a rest day every 14 days and for being a little tired on Monday (those 90+ degree and humid training days are the ones that always did me in) ?

Undoubtedly, the super duper weekends associated with IM training will be tougher, but I will also have an additional year of training under my belt. I'm also going to try to do a lot of my long runs midweek. I've started that already and will see how well I can handle it when the runs get longer.

rollinbones - 2008-01-18 2:15 PM

Correct me If I'm wrong Lauren, but weren't those "Super Weekends" in prep for a HIM? Undoubtedly, they will be more "super" for an IM

I'm in the camp that says training 6 days in a row than resting on Friday will provide me the recovery necessary to get the most out of my Super (Duper) Weekends.

Admittedly, just following a plan. I think my cool-aid is just a differnt color than yours

 

LaurenSU02 - 2008-01-18 2:04 PM When I was doing "super weekends," my rest day would always come on a Monday. I only rested every other Monday, though. I don't think I ever actually needed the day off, but it was good as I was usually feeling tired at that point (i.e., I was more tired on Monday than on Friday) and so it was nice to sleep in. That's how my schedule was written, but if given the choice of when my rest days are scheduled, I would definitely go with after the super weekend.

2008-01-18 2:02 PM
in reply to: #1164447

Champion
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

I know, the OP is doing awesome with his training .

rollinbones - 2008-01-18 2:53 PM

No, no, no. Didn't mean to imply any wussiness Nor did i say "only" a HIM. My point was that the volume will increase substantially and that rest either before OR after would be beneficial ( i just think more benefical before). And in the OP's case he actually logged 12 hours last weekend. I'm thinkin a rest day BEFORE and AFTER a weekend like that may be in order

 

LaurenSU02 - 2008-01-18 2:37 PM

Yes, they were only for a HIM. Are you saying that I am a wuss for having taken a rest day every 14 days and for being a little tired on Monday (those 90+ degree and humid training days are the ones that always did me in) ?

Undoubtedly, the super duper weekends associated with IM training will be tougher, but I will also have an additional year of training under my belt. I'm also going to try to do a lot of my long runs midweek. I've started that already and will see how well I can handle it when the runs get longer.

rollinbones - 2008-01-18 2:15 PM

Correct me If I'm wrong Lauren, but weren't those "Super Weekends" in prep for a HIM? Undoubtedly, they will be more "super" for an IM

I'm in the camp that says training 6 days in a row than resting on Friday will provide me the recovery necessary to get the most out of my Super (Duper) Weekends.

Admittedly, just following a plan. I think my cool-aid is just a differnt color than yours

 

LaurenSU02 - 2008-01-18 2:04 PM When I was doing "super weekends," my rest day would always come on a Monday. I only rested every other Monday, though. I don't think I ever actually needed the day off, but it was good as I was usually feeling tired at that point (i.e., I was more tired on Monday than on Friday) and so it was nice to sleep in. That's how my schedule was written, but if given the choice of when my rest days are scheduled, I would definitely go with after the super weekend.

2008-01-18 2:09 PM
in reply to: #1164070

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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?
Unlike many, I don't do big weekends with both days. I do a long bike during the week and a long run with a short bike on Saturdays. Sundays are my day off, I like it that way because its truly a day off from everything, no job, no training, just sleep in, lazy breakfast, afternoon movie, really nothing. If I didn't do that The Jake might kill me, or I might kill myself. I just can't view a stressful day at work at a "rest day".


2008-01-18 2:14 PM
in reply to: #1164070

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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

With my current marathon plan Mondays are always "rest" days.  But I still swim on them to at least keep the legs moving.  Otherwise I typically have two recovery runs on the schedule interspersed with the heavier more intense stuff.

When I was IM training I would try to do long bikes on Saturday and long runs on Sunday.  That just didn't work for me and my long runs started taking a hit.  So I moved those to Tuesday and was recovered enough from the long effort on Saturday on the bike that I could get a quality longer run in.

That is really the crux of it ..... there are many plans/coaches out there that are against the typical "overload weekend" that most plans have.  They stress the importance of getting quality workouts in over the quantity on the weekend.  The idea is that you should get the most benefit out of each workout and not be so wiped from the day before that you sacrifice the quality.  That was exactly where I ended up and by just moving my long run a few days it made a big difference.

Going back to my marathon plan I'm usually doing some sort of speed on Tuesday, medium-long on Weds. (13 - 15 miles), recovery on Thursday, medium long on Friday, recovery on Saturday and long on Sunday.  It depends on the week, but that is the general trend.  However this week has been track intervals,Weds., medium-long yesterday and medium today - which is a big load to workout with.  Then recovery tomorrow and a marathon paced run Sunday.  It all just depends on what the plan is trying to accomplish.

2008-01-18 2:22 PM
in reply to: #1164497

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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

That is really the crux of it ..... there are many plans/coaches out there that are against the typical "overload weekend" that most plans have.  They stress the importance of getting quality workouts in over the quantity on the weekend.  The idea is that you should get the most benefit out of each workout and not be so wiped from the day before that you sacrifice the quality.  That was exactly where I ended up and by just moving my long run a few days it made a big difference.

Agreed, but schedules being what they are.....   I do tempo/speed run work on Wednesdays, and that made Tues /Thurs difficult for a long run.  Either tempo was affected or long run was.  My justification is that Sunday long runs are done on tired legs, prepping for doing the same at IM.

2008-01-18 2:32 PM
in reply to: #1164070

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Master
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

Doing a long run midweek is interesting, but working full time with a 30 min commute would have me finishing a 3 hour run (which I already have on the sked next weekend) at 9PM. That makes for a really really long day. Kudos to anyone who can handle that.

2008-01-18 2:33 PM
in reply to: #1164515

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

x2 which is why I agree w/ the premise that resting on Friday's in anticapation of these hard/long efforts will provide the most benefit (as opposed to having them be at the end of a 6 day cycle

ChrisM - 2008-01-18 3:22 PM

That is really the crux of it ..... there are many plans/coaches out there that are against the typical "overload weekend" that most plans have. They stress the importance of getting quality workouts in over the quantity on the weekend. The idea is that you should get the most benefit out of each workout and not be so wiped from the day before that you sacrifice the quality. That was exactly where I ended up and by just moving my long run a few days it made a big difference.

Agreed, but schedules being what they are..... I do tempo/speed run work on Wednesdays, and that made Tues /Thurs difficult for a long run. Either tempo was affected or long run was. My justification is that Sunday long runs are done on tired legs, prepping for doing the same at IM.

2008-01-18 2:34 PM
in reply to: #1164515

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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?

ChrisM - 2008-01-18 2:22 PM

My justification is that Sunday long runs are done on tired legs, prepping for doing the same at IM.

Your other reasons are good ones.  But this one, repeated by lots of people (including some coaches), makes absolutely no sense to me.  You don't need to 'learn' to run on tired legs.  You need to train your legs to run so they'll fatigue less quickly.  If you're slogging through a long run on tired legs, you may be better off resting.



2008-01-18 2:37 PM
in reply to: #1164539

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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?
SuzanneS - 2008-01-18 2:32 PM

Doing a long run midweek is interesting, but working full time with a 30 min commute would have me finishing a 3 hour run (which I already have on the sked next weekend) at 9PM. That makes for a really really long day. Kudos to anyone who can handle that.

I never ran over 2:20 for IMLP last year so not quite so long as you're going.  But a one hour commute starting 7:15-7:30am with long runs on Thursdays.  Makes for an early morning start for sure. 

2008-01-18 2:39 PM
in reply to: #1164549

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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?
JohnnyKay - 2008-01-18 12:34 PM

ChrisM - 2008-01-18 2:22 PM

My justification is that Sunday long runs are done on tired legs, prepping for doing the same at IM.

Your other reasons are good ones.  But this one, repeated by lots of people (including some coaches), makes absolutely no sense to me.  You don't need to 'learn' to run on tired legs.  You need to train your legs to run so they'll fatigue less quickly.  If you're slogging through a long run on tired legs, you may be better off resting.

Maybe I should have used the word "excuse" 

2008-01-18 2:46 PM
in reply to: #1164561

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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?
ChrisM - 2008-01-18 2:39 PM

Maybe I should have used the word "excuse" 

I like that better. 

If life dictates (and it does for many), there may not be much choice other than to do long bikes and runs together on the weekend.

2008-01-18 2:47 PM
in reply to: #1164497

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Subject: RE: Rest days - Pre or Post big volume days?
Daremo - 2008-01-18 2:14 PM

That is really the crux of it ..... there are many plans/coaches out there that are against the typical "overload weekend" that most plans have.  They stress the importance of getting quality workouts in over the quantity on the weekend.  The idea is that you should get the most benefit out of each workout and not be so wiped from the day before that you sacrifice the quality.  That was exactly where I ended up and by just moving my long run a few days it made a big difference.

IMO that’s one of the reasons some athletes are spent or overly fatigued during their training, and all because some plans/coaches call for quality sessions (long, intense or sometimes both) on back to back days. I always schedule quality days with 24-48 hrs in between and try to avoid the traditional long ride/long run on weekends, it just doesn’t makes any sense to me. Anyway I know we all have life to deal with and plans have to be altered sometimes often. The one thing I ask my athletes when they change sessions around is to NOT do quality days back to back. There is a reason why I scheduled the AM swim is easier than the PM run or the long bike a few days after the tempo run…

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