General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats Rss Feed  
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2008-01-29 12:16 PM

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Subject: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats

I'm a 37-year-old male and have been endurance training for about 2 years with no real athletic background (soccer bench-warmer in HS).  My Lactate Threshold is about 169bpm.   I keep my BT log updated.   I am following the Runner's World 1/2 Marathon Plan in preparation for a 4/6 race.  My last 1/2 was in September '07, where I ran a 1:40:38 (negative split ).  So, this is what I loaded into the Runner's World program.

The plan has tempo runs gradually increasing in distance from 3mi to 6mi at tempo pace (7:27).  The plan alternates tempo weeks with mile-repeats w/ 800m jog intervals.  Again, progressing from 2x1mi to 5x1mi AND FASTER (from 7:03/mi to 6:50/mi pace).

My question (finally) is where should I be targetting my HR on these tempo runs and mile-repeats?  I was fine with aiming for suggested pace.  However, as some of these runs have been on ice-covered tracks, wet roads, various treadmills, I recognize that pace is probably not the best answer.  For example, last week my mile repeats were on the TM at 1% incline and was in low Z4 at a 6:50 pace.  The week prior, on an icy/snowy track I was in Z5a (170bpm) at 7:25 pace...

My plan (looking for feedback on this) is to aim for mid Z4 (164-166) on tempo runs and shoot for Z4/5a or 169-170 bpm on the mile-repeats.  Does this seem right?  Or should all "tempo runs" be basically right up against the LT wall - in my case 169 bpm?

Feedback please!

Edit:  My goal is a 1:35 (nearly 6 minutes faster than last fall).  So, I am trying to push myself this spring.



Edited by mbmoran2 2008-01-29 12:33 PM


2008-01-29 12:29 PM
in reply to: #1181765

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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats

Interesting questions.  I'll be interested to see the responses from some of the coaches and experienced runners.

I run train based only on pace.  I use Daniel's VDOT method to calculate my paces for the various training intervals.  What has amazed me is that my VDOT paces match my LT HR calculated paces very well.  I.e, my long run pace puts my HR in z2.  My 800 interval pace puts my HR in z4.

I would say, pick one method and use it. 

I personally prefer using only pace for run training as I've seen the most gain in performance since switching to pace instead of HR.

TJ



Edited by zia_cyclist 2008-01-29 12:30 PM
2008-01-29 12:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats

Your mile repeats should not be any faster than 5k pace and your tempo runs should be around your half-mary. pace.  Your 5k pace roughly translates to upper Zone 4 (above LT) and your 1/2 mary. pace should be right around your LT.  So assuming you are following your zones correctly and have them measures accurately, there you go!

I also go by pace and RPE, but my HRM shows that when I'm at those effort levels the zone is about where it should be (unless I have the wind at my back like last Friday and my tempo pace was :20 faster than usual and my HR was about 10 beats below where it would normally be).

Edit: Oh, according to Pfitzinger & Douglas you should NEVER negative split a race (unless the course is harder in the first half).  They say that all that means is that you did not run the race to your full potential by holding back too much in the beginning.  According to them, the best results come from close to an even split or a slight positive split.  Just sayin' .............



Edited by Daremo 2008-01-29 1:01 PM
2008-01-29 1:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats
Well put, Rick, and I agree 100% about that negative split stuff. You should start another thread on that, it's very much worthy of discussion.
2008-01-29 11:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats
I agree with that as well. But it all depends on what you want to go by HR or pace. If what you stated for each HR and pace matches up right now (ie. temp @ 164-166bpm & 7:27 pace), then maintain your HR and you'll notice your pace going up over the weeks. If they don't match right now you have to figure out which you want to train by - HR and the pace will come, or Pace and the HR will drop as you get fitter. Generally, you'll probably want to go with the first and follow HR.

Edited by VanCityJ 2008-01-29 11:13 PM
2008-01-30 2:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats
Hi mbmoran2,

I´m afraid I won´t answer to any of your questions, however...

I think you are just ignoring other important aspects that will have a direct impact on the mile you will be doing, as you realized on your own, weather, road conditions, fatigue, etc, all will play an important role on your HR and pace.

That being said, try to do the miles repeats on feel, and see how that goes, it looks like your plan has way too much numbers, percentages, etc, and into very detailed, 1bpm or 2 seconds difference... It sounds like the repeats are at a "medium to hard intensity", use perceived effort to pace yourself, and watch and HRM as tools, but don´t become a slave of them

Good job on the negative split, i totally agree with this strategy. And for the treadmill run, I would leave that at 0%, you get more benefits than you think, you just teach your body to run at a faster pace, but without the cardiac overload.

Vinnie



2008-01-30 8:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats
FYI - when I advise my athletes to do either a Tempo (z3), LT (z4) or VO2max (z5) sessions I tell them to go by pace and feel because HR lags behind and can be affected by other variables. Following this you most likley will benefit more from the session as you will be stressing your body at the planned intensity. If the weather conditions doesn't allow yoo to keep an specific pace do your best and go by feel and use your HR as a secondary way to gauge effort...
2008-01-30 9:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats

Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

It seems the Runner's world paces (mile-repeats = 5k pace and tempo runs = 1/2M pace)are about right on with the McMillian charts when I plug my last 1/2-mary time in.  However, based on my instincts and some of your responses, I will try to reign in my tempo runs when appropriate.  It probably is not a good idea to turn those into 30-45 minute all out efforts to meet a "pace" if the conditions are not favorable.  I will, however, use those once/month mile repeats to push into Z5a and see what I'm made of.

Nice response on the "exactness" of the RW plan.  I did find it amusing trying to hit mile splits of "7:27."      Actually I was happy to be within 5 seconds of this prescribed pace.

Good info on RPE vs. heart-rate too, especially on those mile repeats.  I do notice that HR definitely lags effort.  A better strategy is to go "controlled hard" with a goal to top out at LT HR towards the end of the repeat, then start all over after the 800m recovery.

I really appreciate the feedback, as this is the first time I've done any structured "speedwork."  I have a 6mi run tonight with the middle 4 at 7:27... er, I mean tempo pace...

With regard to neg-splits, the Pfitzinger & Douglas audience are most likely more experienced runners.  However, I've done only a handfull of races.  Most of these I aimed to "finish."  I probably only "raced" two - including that fall 1/2M.  For all four of my triathlons (1 sprint, 2 olys and 1 HIM) I planned and executed to neg-split each discipline, with the exception of the bike leg of 2nd oly.  Mostly due to the unknown.  e.g. "Will I finish?"  I did feel that I could have raced harder and improved my times on those races.  However, that's really not a bad feeling... Unless you are one of those "ubercompetitive, never satisfied with yourself" kind of person.  We don't have any here, do we?     I imagine as I get more experienced, my race times will become closer to even/positive split.  Still, I hope to never "blow-up" a race.  This stuff is supposed to be fun right?

 

2008-01-30 1:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats
I agree with everything said here and would just like to add a little. You may disagree at any time.
I am no expert. I am also 37 years old with LTHR of 169 for running. I have very little running background prior to triathlon. This is coming from books I have read, I did not invent it.
Tempo runs- wether to do zone 4 or zone 5a?
If you would like to improve the ability to maintain tempo pace for longer duration, stay in mid to upper zone 4, maintain that pace and gradulay keep adding 5min a week to your continuous tempo run til you reach desired length of it, obviously that depends on your racing distance.
If you would like to improve the pace (speed) at threshold, than run given distance in zone 5a.
So what I would suggest in light of your RW smart coach, when you see an increase in distance for your tempo run, keep the pace from last week, remain in zone 4, just increase the distance.
If you see the increase in pace for certain week with tempo run distance being the same, than you know what the purpose of that run is and probably should take you into the zone 5a.
Just like others, I start with RPE and target pace and than use HR to validate the effort. As you know many conditions will affect the heart rate. On your mile repeats I would use HR just to make sure you are not overpacing or underpacing yourself. In some conditons like heat or wind you will not be able to maintain RW smart coach calculated pace and still remain in intended zone.
2008-01-30 4:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats

What pace were you running at for a 169 avg HR? How did you determine the LT?

Tempo, I would keep in the Zone 4 range. For mile repeats on 1 minute rest, I would use 10k pace at max. That's how I've always done it and it works well for me and the athletes I've coached. Keeping the tempo runs below LT will give you the same physiological benefit and your recovery will be much quicker. There have been many studies donw on this over the years. Pushing yourself to the wall will only break you down more and lengthen the recovery.

Neg splitting is where it's at!

2008-01-30 4:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats
mikericci - 2008-01-30 2:27 PM


Neg splitting is where it's at!

Mike - if you have time, would you mind weighing in on the neg. split thread?   Do you treat neg. split in training differently than racing?

Chris



2008-01-30 6:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats

mikericci - 2008-01-30 5:27 PM Neg splitting is where it's at!

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one ..... but I'd love your thoughts on it over in Bryan's thread as well!

2008-01-30 7:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats
mikericci - 2008-01-30 6:27 PM

What pace were you running at for a 169 avg HR? How did you determine the LT?

Tempo, I would keep in the Zone 4 range. For mile repeats on 1 minute rest, I would use 10k pace at max. That's how I've always done it and it works well for me and the athletes I've coached. Keeping the tempo runs below LT will give you the same physiological benefit and your recovery will be much quicker. There have been many studies donw on this over the years. Pushing yourself to the wall will only break you down more and lengthen the recovery.

Neg splitting is where it's at!

I was going to respond about your mile repeats as they appear to be very aggressive but Mike already took care of that.  I would agree with him that either you should go slower on the mile repeats (should be around 7:30 for you I would guess) or some slightly faster 800's (I would guess 3:40) or 1000m (I would guess 4:30) intervals in place of the mile repeats at 7' or faster pace.

Shane

2008-01-30 10:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats
gsmacleod - 2008-01-30 8:50 PM
mikericci - 2008-01-30 6:27 PM

What pace were you running at for a 169 avg HR? How did you determine the LT?

Tempo, I would keep in the Zone 4 range. For mile repeats on 1 minute rest, I would use 10k pace at max. That's how I've always done it and it works well for me and the athletes I've coached. Keeping the tempo runs below LT will give you the same physiological benefit and your recovery will be much quicker. There have been many studies donw on this over the years. Pushing yourself to the wall will only break you down more and lengthen the recovery.

Neg splitting is where it's at!

I was going to respond about your mile repeats as they appear to be very aggressive but Mike already took care of that.  I would agree with him that either you should go slower on the mile repeats (should be around 7:30 for you I would guess) or some slightly faster 800's (I would guess 3:40) or 1000m (I would guess 4:30) intervals in place of the mile repeats at 7' or faster pace.

Shane

Mike & Shane,  a big "thank you" for the input.  Tempo run tonight went well. Cold (10deg F), dark, icy run through the hood.  I held 7:36 while in mid Z4 (AHR 164, MHR 169).  It was too dark to watch splits, so I went by feel and it worked out fine.  I dialed it back vs. last time when I was trying to hold 7:25.  Man, those 10s/mi make a big difference!  I feel a whole lot better too, could easily hop on the trainer right now (but won't).

I don't have a reference open 10k, but McMillan tables have me at a 7:15, based on my 1/2M.  My goal for an open 10k this spring is a 44:00, which is closer to a 7:05.  Either way, it looks like the RW pace is aggresive.  I may still try to push those repeats, as they are only 1x/month, but keep the 2x/month tempo runs in check.  By the way, I'm doing the mile repeats with 800m recovery jogs, not 1 minute rests.  I've read that its better to keep moving between the hard efforts.

My "A" race goal is a 3:25 at NYC on 11/2 (and 3:15:59 in '09).  This 1/2M is an early season indicator for me. 

I figure, my LT pace is about a 7:25-7:30.  I determined my LT from my 1/2 marathon.  My race strategy that day was to go out easy then bring pace up to just shy of my estimated (based on lots of running w/ HRM over the course of last summer) LT of 169 for miles 6 through 11 and then run a 5k effort down the stretch.  Here are my splits from that race:

disttimeAHR
10:07:57154
10:08:01160
10:07:42159downhill
10:08:09161
10:07:35165
10:07:42167
10:07:43166
10:07:39167
10:07:28167
10:07:56168uphill
10:07:28170
10:07:20170
10:07:20171
0.1 0:00:39 173
13.11:40:38165

I felt comfortable (well, sort of) in that 166-168 range.  When I put the gas down on the home stretch, a definite threshold was crossed (very labored breathing, burning in legs); no way could I hold 170+ bpm for more than 30 minutes.  I came in on fumes.  I deduced my LT is in the 168-170 range, verifying prior estimate.



Edited by mbmoran2 2008-01-30 10:46 PM
2008-01-31 12:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Pace and Heart Rate for Tempo runs and Mile-repeats
Nice question and congrat for your negative split! Indipendently from your final time, negative split is a very important tactic to apply in general in sport of endurance and in particular in running. I usually divide the race in 3 parts instead of two: first part very easy, second steady and the third one must be the fastest. Try on a half marathon and see...

About the subject: I am a runner moving into tri since 1 year so I can give you my point of view for medium tempo runs.
I train in km but you can apply the same concept.
First of all, the recovery time is an important parameter: the shorter it is and you are training for a short race like 1500, 5000 or even 10000 meters. If you want to try short races for preparation, then add some tempo runs where you reduce the recovery time (jogging time). For example in my case, I do often 1000 meters repetitions and I tipically do 8 times at around 3'20"-3'25" per km and my recovery goes between 1'30" to 2'30". I always do it in a track and field but I can use my Garmin305 for setting the repetitions just around the corner of where I live (flat course). NEVER on a treadmill for me: after 1km I can kill myself!
Anyway, for you, if you go on a treadmill, never run with a pendence BELOW 1.5% otherwise you risk shin splints.

For HR on tempo run: we have the same LT since I run the 10000 meters at 169 average: I can tell you that my 1000 meters tempo run are just above 169 or right there. It can even depends on the day but you should target them slightly above the 169. Since you run 1miles repetitions, I would say right at 169 (or even less) should be perfect!
My 2000 meters repetitions (something above 1 mile) are at 168 tipically. But I prefer usually 3000 meters repetitions at same pace of my half marathon. I do 3 or 4 and even here the recovery is important. If interested, I can post for you a table where you can see for each repetition length, the target HR and the recovery (depending on your targeted race).
In general: the 1km should be at 5k race (or better less by 3-5 sec per km); 2km right at the 10km pace; 3km at the HM pace.
Last info: my 3k HR is around 165. HM target HR is 165-168.
You should use more or less the same as me.
Unfortunately, US uses different length units but track and fields are always 400meters :-))

Sorry for mixing too many things together...

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