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2008-02-03 10:32 AM

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Subject: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation

I'm signed up for my second IM this year and was looking for a different training plan than I used last year (BT IM plan).  I had heard Rich Strauss and Patrick McCann talk at IMLP last year, so I checked out their site, Endurance Nation.  I liked their ideas and signed up for their membership which includes access to all their training plans.  They've recently been working on a Wiki for IM training.  Here's a link to what they've posted so far:

http://www.enationblog.us/2008/01/27/wiki-endurance-nation-five-keys-of-long-course-training/

To me the big differences in what they propose versus others:

1.  More of an emphasis on intensity.  They still schedule a lot of base training but add in more intensity than other plans especially during the early parts of the training.  I know its not a great term but almost "Reverse Periodization".  Doing more intense works out at the beginning and then transferring to more race specific training as you get closer to the race.

2.  Recovery weeks.  As they say, "The “need” to take a recovery week is a result of poor scheduling. When you do it right, when Monday fits with Tuesday fits with Wednesday, you don’t “need” a recovery week. Instead, 2-3 easy days at the start of that 4th week (or at any time, frankly) and you’re back at it. More importantly, you don’t lose 25% of your key workouts to the need to take a recovery week every month."

A definite departure from standard Joel Friel based training.

3. Their emphasis on adapting your training to your available time.  If you can't realistically train 25 hours a week, how do you best use the 12-15 hours available.

Anyway, I was interested in what others thought.  Currently Endurance Nation gives free access to their forums and articles but this will soon change to members only.  So, I thought others might want to see the info while it was still available.

Ernie

 

 

 

 



Edited by ejc999 2008-02-03 10:38 AM


2008-02-03 8:01 PM
in reply to: #1191949

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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation
ejc999 - 2008-02-03 10:32 AM

I'm signed up for my second IM this year and was looking for a different training plan than I used last year (BT IM plan).  I had heard Rich Strauss and Patrick McCann talk at IMLP last year, so I checked out their site, Endurance Nation.  I liked their ideas and signed up for their membership which includes access to all their training plans.  They've recently been working on a Wiki for IM training.  Here's a link to what they've posted so far:

http://www.enationblog.us/2008/01/27/wiki-endurance-nation-five-keys-of-long-course-training/

To me the big differences in what they propose versus others:

1.  More of an emphasis on intensity.  They still schedule a lot of base training but add in more intensity than other plans especially during the early parts of the training.  I know its not a great term but almost "Reverse Periodization".  Doing more intense works out at the beginning and then transferring to more race specific training as you get closer to the race.

2.  Recovery weeks.  As they say, "The “need” to take a recovery week is a result of poor scheduling. When you do it right, when Monday fits with Tuesday fits with Wednesday, you don’t “need” a recovery week. Instead, 2-3 easy days at the start of that 4th week (or at any time, frankly) and you’re back at it. More importantly, you don’t lose 25% of your key workouts to the need to take a recovery week every month."

A definite departure from standard Joel Friel based training.

3. Their emphasis on adapting your training to your available time.  If you can't realistically train 25 hours a week, how do you best use the 12-15 hours available.

Anyway, I was interested in what others thought.  Currently Endurance Nation gives free access to their forums and articles but this will soon change to members only.  So, I thought others might want to see the info while it was still available.

Ernie

IMO Rich is a good coach but neither of the 3 points mentioned above are new or an approach exclusively used by them. Variations of this approach have been used by some of the best coaches for a long time. The problem is that Friel's ideas are more popular/known cuz he was pretty much the 1st to market tri coaching ideas. That shows you don't have to be the best, just the 1st

PS. And yes there is no such a thing as reverse periodization

2008-02-03 9:34 PM
in reply to: #1191949

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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation
Hi Ernie,

I must say I agree with your points, don´t kill yourself with huge volume unless you are 3-4 months out of the race, work on your limiters, strenght, intensity, no mental burnout, no 4-5h riding indoors, keep it short and intense, reverse periodization is a term used for better understanding, and for IM training, it makes sense, its a 8h+ race afterall, not a 2´ race such as swimming or track running, sports that created the terms, periodization, base, taper, etc, etc

Oh yeah, if you ony have 12-15h a week for IM training, you better get 100% out of it, the best way is to seek for multiple beefits out of one sessions, if you do a negative split ride on your aerobars pusing big gears, you will get not only the aerobic benefits out of it, but also strenght, pace managment (learn how to increase effort towards the end, like in an IM), and race-specific technique (i this case pushing the wind on aerobars), the same can be applyed for some swim and run sets, basically, no training.

Schedule recorvery weeks aren´t needed, let deep fatigue dictate when you need a rest, or even when work and family commitments jumps on the way, use your recovery weeks if you have to do some business traveling, a weekend away with your family, etc. Your weekly load should be enough to be done over and over again, week in, week out, small loads that creates tiny adaptations over the time.

Have a great season,

Vinnie





2008-02-04 8:26 AM
in reply to: #1191949

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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation
You already know that I agree with most of Rich's & Patrick's thoughts on this stuff.  I used some training plans from Rich last year and am still following the general outline now.
2008-02-04 10:07 AM
in reply to: #1191949

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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation
Thanks for the link... some good info there. My coach seems to be following more of the intensity side of workouts (besides the endurance workouts each week) and I took alot of questioning and criticism from other people in my tri group who still take Friels approach and are using training plans out of books for the IM. Nothing wrong with how they do it, but it took me a while to figure out "what" my coach was doing! I was just doing what he said, and once I started getting questioned, I did some research and asked him a few things and I liked the answers since I do want to get faster and was not looking forward to just putting time in again this year.

Anyways.. thanks!
2008-02-04 10:40 AM
in reply to: #1191949

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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation

Back when BT was brand new and needed a lot of help I volunteer to write articles. Here's an interesting article that I thought relevant. It's about a study that concluded that those who did well at Ironman events did two things:

Biked a freakin' lot.

Had the biggest volumes just two months prior to the race.

So "reverse periodization..." seems to have worked for them.

Here's the article with a link to the study: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=532



2008-02-04 3:00 PM
in reply to: #1193301

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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation
infosteward - 2008-02-04 10:40 AM

Back when BT was brand new and needed a lot of help I volunteer to write articles. Here's an interesting article that I thought relevant. It's about a study that concluded that those who did well at Ironman events did two things:

Biked a freakin' lot.

Had the biggest volumes just two months prior to the race.

So "reverse periodization..." seems to have worked for them.

Here's the article with a link to the study: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=532

again, reverse perdization doesn't exit. There is however periodization in which you go from general to specific training. nothing more nothing else...
2008-02-04 3:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation
amiine - 2008-02-03 9:01 PM
ejc999 - 2008-02-03 10:32 AM

Ernie

IMO Rich is a good coach but neither of the 3 points mentioned above are new or an approach exclusively used by them. Variations of this approach have been used by some of the best coaches for a long time. The problem is that Friel's ideas are more popular/known cuz he was pretty much the 1st to market tri coaching ideas. That shows you don't have to be the best, just the 1st

PS. And yes there is no such a thing as reverse periodization

Jorge, I knew the reverse periodization would get a few comments.   I agree with you that it doesn't exist but seems to strike a chord with some people.  I also agree that Rich isn't proposing something revolutionary but you don't hear about it much on BT.  There seems to be a "fear" to add any intensity to training for fear of over training or causing injury.  I'm not sure that "intensity" means that much more than the word "base".  It can mean different things to different people.  For me, it's more training at high z2 with some z3 or finishing a training session more tired than I would for "base" training.  It's all being able to work in the recovery time.  I don't think it means having to do frequent z5 workouts.  I would be interested in other points of view.  

Ernie 

2008-02-05 5:28 AM
in reply to: #1191949

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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation
Interesting... I more or less arrived at the same conclusion all on my own (that it's okay, and probably even good, to include some higher intensity sessions throughout your training). I'm entering my 3rd year of tri's, and planning on my first HIM this season. Last year, I bought into the "do all of your base training in zone 1/low zone2" paradigm and guess what -- I got SLOWER! Especially on the run. I was a slave to my HRM, keeping all of my running at the low end to build that "base" everyone talks about. When it came time to begin adding in some speedwork - OMG! My first tempo run last year in the late winter/early spring was a real eye opener! It took me AGES to get back up to the pace I was at the end of the previous season! I won't make the same mistake this time around -- I'm keeping at least some weekly tempo work in my plan. I'm doing the same on the bike, too -- trying to buld speed & power over the winter rather than focusing exclusively on low end "base building".
2008-02-05 8:55 AM
in reply to: #1194724

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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation

jsnowash - 2008-02-05 5:28 AM Interesting... I more or less arrived at the same conclusion all on my own (that it's okay, and probably even good, to include some higher intensity sessions throughout your training). I'm entering my 3rd year of tri's, and planning on my first HIM this season. Last year, I bought into the "do all of your base training in zone 1/low zone2" paradigm and guess what -- I got SLOWER! Especially on the run. I was a slave to my HRM, keeping all of my running at the low end to build that "base" everyone talks about. When it came time to begin adding in some speedwork - OMG! My first tempo run last year in the late winter/early spring was a real eye opener! It took me AGES to get back up to the pace I was at the end of the previous season! I won't make the same mistake this time around -- I'm keeping at least some weekly tempo work in my plan. I'm doing the same on the bike, too -- trying to buld speed & power over the winter rather than focusing exclusively on low end "base building".

FYI - The problem is not the approach, is the training load. The high volume/low intensity approach is very effective when done in the right way. IOW you need a big training load to produce important training adaptations otherwise the results will be minimal. The problem is that many AGers don't have the time, patience and discipline to follow such approach. For someone training 15+ hrs per week that is one of the best ways to improve, but for someone training 8hrs per week it is not...

2008-02-05 8:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation
ejc999 - 2008-02-04 3:52 PM

Jorge, I knew the reverse periodization would get a few comments.   I agree with you that it doesn't exist but seems to strike a chord with some people.  I also agree that Rich isn't proposing something revolutionary but you don't hear about it much on BT.  There seems to be a "fear" to add any intensity to training for fear of over training or causing injury.  I'm not sure that "intensity" means that much more than the word "base".  It can mean different things to different people.  For me, it's more training at high z2 with some z3 or finishing a training session more tired than I would for "base" training.  It's all being able to work in the recovery time.  I don't think it means having to do frequent z5 workouts.  I would be interested in other points of view.  

Ernie 

I agree; here are my thoughts about base training: http://jorgepbmcoaching.blogspot.com/2008/01/what-exactly-is-base-training.html 

enjoy



2008-02-05 11:15 AM
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2008-02-06 5:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation
amiine - 2008-02-05 9:57 AM
ejc999 - 2008-02-04 3:52 PM

Jorge, I knew the reverse periodization would get a few comments. I agree with you that it doesn't exist but seems to strike a chord with some people. I also agree that Rich isn't proposing something revolutionary but you don't hear about it much on BT. There seems to be a "fear" to add any intensity to training for fear of over training or causing injury. I'm not sure that "intensity" means that much more than the word "base". It can mean different things to different people. For me, it's more training at high z2 with some z3 or finishing a training session more tired than I would for "base" training. It's all being able to work in the recovery time. I don't think it means having to do frequent z5 workouts. I would be interested in other points of view.

Ernie

I agree; here are my thoughts about base training: http://jorgepbmcoaching.blogspot.com/2008/01/what-exactly-is-base-training.html

enjoy

 

Jorge,

I like that blog entry and was one of the reasons I started this thread.  

Ernie 

2008-02-06 11:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation
nice write up jorge.

I'm using one of rich's plan for IMAZ right now, hit most of my workouts but definately try to hit all the zones. Limited off days but when I do the workouts as planned, hit the zones, I feel ok, feel as each workout coincides with the next really well.

If i need a day off, i listen to my body and take a day off
2008-02-06 12:08 PM
in reply to: #1191949

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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation

Jorge - Great blog on Base Prep, thanks. with regard to a training plan you're saying the amount of intensity vs load is a factor of fitness level correct?

What is the best method to establish a fitness identifier baseline? is it VO2 max compared to AeT? Lactate Threshold?

 

2008-02-06 9:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Training Intensity and Endurance Nation
pkingfl - 2008-02-06 12:08 PM

Jorge - Great blog on Base Prep, thanks. with regard to a training plan you're saying the amount of intensity vs load is a factor of fitness level correct?

What is the best method to establish a fitness identifier baseline? is it VO2 max compared to AeT? Lactate Threshold?

 

as explained on the "what is base training" blog, AeT is a coined term which refers to LT.

As for your question, I think a field test to indentify pace/power/HR at lactate threshold is a better baseline to track fitness and predict performance.



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