General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches? Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 6
 
 
2008-02-27 1:57 PM
in reply to: #1238232

User image

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
PennState - 2008-02-27 5:56 AM

AdventureBear - 2008-02-27 1:14 AM
PennState - 2008-02-26 7:59 AM

Yeah, get over it. There is no real animosity against coaches. I am a physician, and there are far more people who are 'anti-physicain' than anti-coach... it's just life. People are entitled to their opinions, even when they aren't the same as yours

Take it all less seriously... you'll live longer

How should I feel if I'm a physician AND a coach?

you clearly have 2 strikes against you



Maybe I should go to law school to round it all out!


2008-02-27 3:15 PM
in reply to: #1235602

User image

Master
2355
20001001001002525
Houston, TX
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
I just try to remember one piece of advice.

Is it working for you? If so, good. If not, CHANGE something.
2008-02-27 7:09 PM
in reply to: #1235602

User image

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
There are some good points in this thread and there is a lot of grandstanding and useless hyperbole. It's nearly impossible to compare the benefits of a coached vs. non-coached athlete as they can not occur simultaneously at the athletes current experience. So coached athletes will more likely stay with a coach as they see their abilities improve, non-coached athletes will have seen gain on their own and think they don't need a coach, although they may hire one at some point, see benefits or not, and make a judgement call about the experience, which may or may not be valid, but it will be their opinion. All of that is fine and VERY subjective.

I think it is silly to try and put percentages to use term like "marginal", sorry Bear and JK, as that is not based on any real analysis, it's mostly just experience. I actually have a job very similar to coaching. I am a financial advisor at UBS. Some people want help managing their money, some don't and want to do it themselves. Are their returns better? maybe, maybe not. It's a comfort decision people make to hire me to run their money. Same thing with coaching. Personally, I believe in hiring "experts" in their field to assist me in area's I am not expert. My time is better allocated that way. I hire realtor's to sell me house, I hire plumbers to fix my pipes, I hire accountants to do my taxes. That's just how I do things as a service provider.

I hired a triathlon coach as I was a total newbie in May of 2006 and I qualified for Kona 9 months later. Was it because of my coach? No, it was me, but he but together a plan that allowed me to concentrate on my goal without worrying about the details and it worked for me, so now I believe, but I am biased to the "expert" concept. As I learn more, I feel more independence, but I still enjoy the validation my coach provides. Do I need it? maybe not, but I'm OK with that, as are my clients.
2008-02-27 7:24 PM
in reply to: #1240042

User image

Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?

I'm in the financial business too Bryan.  The same "dirty secret" exists there.  95% (yes, I'm again making up the percentage, just play along with me) is simply saving consistently and having an investment mix appropriate to your risk tolerance.  But as with training, some people aren't comfortable defining those for themselves and so pay an "expert" to help them.  Or they decide that they'd like a better shot at getting close to 100%.  In which case a GOOD coach, advisor, etc. can make all the difference.  (I'm not sure your other examples are quite the same since you're hiring people to do the WORK as opposed to tell you what you should do.)

In other words, I basically agree with you so I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me about.

2008-02-27 7:29 PM
in reply to: #1240060

User image

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
I was just had an issue with the %'s assigned. As you know, our client's figure a MUCH higher percentage of value to our services than what was represented, otherwise we would be out of a job, clearly. I think the same could be said for coaching. As an experienced athlete, maybe the gains of coaching are smaller and more incremental, but still valuable depending on goals. For a less experience athlete, the benefits may be greater.
2008-02-27 7:30 PM
in reply to: #1239321

Elite
2608
2000500100
Denver, Colorado
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
AdventureBear - 2008-02-27 1:57 PM
PennState - 2008-02-27 5:56 AM
AdventureBear - 2008-02-27 1:14 AM
PennState - 2008-02-26 7:59 AM

Yeah, get over it. There is no real animosity against coaches. I am a physician, and there are far more people who are 'anti-physicain' than anti-coach... it's just life. People are entitled to their opinions, even when they aren't the same as yours

Take it all less seriously... you'll live longer

How should I feel if I'm a physician AND a coach?

you clearly have 2 strikes against you

Maybe I should go to law school to round it all out!

I was actually going to suggest that. You'd have the "hate me hat trick."

I actually knew an M.D. who got sick of medicine, got a law degree, and practiced med-mal.



2008-02-27 7:32 PM
in reply to: #1239157

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2008-02-27 7:36 PM
in reply to: #1240065

Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?

bryancd - 2008-02-27 7:29 PM I was just had an issue with the %'s assigned. As you know, our client's figure a MUCH higher percentage of value to our services than what was represented, otherwise we would be out of a job, clearly. I think the same could be said for coaching. As an experienced athlete, maybe the gains of coaching are smaller and more incremental, but still valuable depending on goals. For a less experience athlete, the benefits may be greater.

My percentage is made up.  It's just to make a point we've discussed before.  That is, you can achieve a large portion of your potential simply by steadily building your training load and maintaining consistency.

There are many valid reasons within that and beyond that which may cause people to consider a coach.

And it's a good thing there are many clients who feel the same way in our business. 

2008-02-27 7:56 PM
in reply to: #1235701

Master
2005
2000
South Florida
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?

Cappy - 2008-02-26 10:12 AM . I think, after a while, people without coaches get tired of coached athletes saying, “My coach said this. My coach said that. My coach said not to push too hard when I take a dump as my HR shouldn’t go over Z2. …” 

now that is some funny stuff. 

I like having a coach.  I like being told what to do.  It's my luxury, I guess.  I don't get my nails done.  I don't shop much (I have 4 pairs of jeans v. the 20+ some of my friends have).   I get my hair cut about once every 6 months.  It saves me time scouring the internet and books finagling my plan, time that I can spend with my family.  Yes, I'm 41 and not looking to win money, fame or whatever at this, but it is a pursuit that leads to a very healthy lifestyle.  My daughter has done and is going to do more tris, which in turn leads her to a healthy life style.  Can I do without my coach?  Of course.   I am a personal trainer who has had some clients for 4+ years - do they know what to do??  I would hope so!!!  Do they enjoy having me?  Apparently. 

It's just prioritizing.  I'd rather have a new pair of clipless shoes than a fancy pair of heels. 

2008-02-27 8:41 PM
in reply to: #1239321

Extreme Veteran
422
100100100100
New York, NY
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
AdventureBear - 2008-02-27 2:57 PM

PennState - 2008-02-27 5:56 AM

AdventureBear - 2008-02-27 1:14 AM
PennState - 2008-02-26 7:59 AM

Yeah, get over it. There is no real animosity against coaches. I am a physician, and there are far more people who are 'anti-physicain' than anti-coach... it's just life. People are entitled to their opinions, even when they aren't the same as yours

Take it all less seriously... you'll live longer

How should I feel if I'm a physician AND a coach?

you clearly have 2 strikes against you



Maybe I should go to law school to round it all out!


Yeah I really don't know what you doctors are talking about. I'm a lawyer. EVERYONE pretty much hates us...
2008-02-27 8:56 PM
in reply to: #1240119

Master
2115
2000100
Dothan, Al
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?

Cappy - 2008-02-26 10:12 AM . I think, after a while, people without coaches get tired of coached athletes saying, “My coach said this. My coach said that. My coach said not to push too hard when I take a dump as my HR shouldn’t go over 72. …”

Actually if you push to hard while taking a dump you can bottom out your heart rate and blood pressure by stimulating the Vagal (or Vagus ) nerve. However I am not a coach, and not a doctor...

 

I think tomorrow night I will try the Hampton Inn...the matress at the Holiday Inn Express is no good for my back.Laughing



2008-02-27 9:18 PM
in reply to: #1240240

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
lorabby - 2008-02-27 7:41 PM

you clearly have 2 strikes against you



Maybe I should go to law school to round it all out!

Yeah I really don't know what you doctors are talking about. I'm a lawyer. EVERYONE pretty much hates us...


LOL. If you're on my side of the aisle, I LOVE you.

Edited by AdventureBear 2008-02-27 9:18 PM
2008-02-28 4:46 AM
in reply to: #1240240

Expert
1068
10002525
, District of Columbia
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
lorabby - 2008-02-27 9:41 PM

Yeah I really don't know what you doctors are talking about. I'm a lawyer. EVERYONE pretty much hates us...


No, they only hate you when they get the bill. Or in my case, they dislike you personally when you're advocating an issue -- an important issue -- but have a truly dreadful client as the poster boy. Which is why we never discuss my professional life at family holidays!

But I do understand the anti-coach diatribes, as some of these guys-in-training are just so weird about it all. They never just go out and do, for the sake of doing. Everything seems to be about max this or min that.

2008-02-29 10:31 AM
in reply to: #1240042

Master
2125
200010025
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?

bryancd - 2008-02-27 7:09 PM  Personally, I believe in hiring "experts" in their field to assist me in area's I am not expert. My time is better allocated that way. I hire realtor's to sell me house, I hire plumbers to fix my pipes, I hire accountants to do my taxes. That's just how I do things as a service provider.

 

Ditto.

2008-03-24 12:26 PM
in reply to: #1235761

Expert
717
500100100
Washington Court House, Ohio
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
Rocket Man - 2008-02-26 10:32 AM

PennState - 2008-02-26 10:23 AM
Rocket Man - 2008-02-26 10:09 AM
PennState - 2008-02-26 9:59 AM

Yeah, get over it. There is no real animosity against coaches. I am a physician, and there are far more people who are 'anti-physicain' than anti-coach... it's just life. People are entitled to their opinions, even when they aren't the same as yours

Take it all less seriously... you'll live longer

 

I d

Gee, thanks "get over it" sounds like great advice.

I think some of you are missing my point (maybe I wasn't clear in my initial post), my purpose for starting this thread was to find out why people feel as they do about coaching. There have been several threads on here over the past few months regarding coaching and there is always a vocal group that chimes in about how many books are available or free plans off the internet, etc. and how you should spend your money on something else or the like. 

There is always something lost in translation when things are written versus spoken, but the tone of some of these posts (at least to me) were that you were getting "ripped off" by using a coach when there was so much free information out there. I am just curious as to if these folks have had a poor coacing experience or what makes them think as they do.

 

Sorry man, most of posts are truly 'tongue in cheek'. I actually pay a coach for myself

I think I was just implying that there isn't anti-coach animosity... just that some people don't want to spend their money that way.

 I didn't take it the wrong way...hence the smiley face at the end! I know you are a coached athlete and you are very informed about training and racing, I value your opinion.

I think the whole written vs spoken thing again...

 

To the rest of you thanks for your responses! I initially started coaching and got certified because I enjoyed helping my friends out and watching them get better. In the last 4 years it has become basically another full time job that I love. I have great athletes that I coach and I can't tell you how much joy it gives me to see them acheive their goals. I (and the other coaches that I know of on here....aniime (Jorge), Adventure Bear (Suzanne), and gsmcloud (Greg)) all are knowledgeble people and work hard to educate ourselves to be the best coaches that we can be. I just payed for the USAT Level II clinic (to the tune of $615) in April and this is after paying $350 for the USA Cycling Level II in November. I would hope that I could tell you more than a book or generic piece of paper!

Thanks again for your responses.



I haven't read further than this post (end of page 1), and maybe should read the whole thread before chiming in. Just wanted to let you know that I understood where you were coming from. Odd that so many had to explain to you that you misunderstood the other posts by misstating you. ..... I'll read on .....
2008-03-24 1:07 PM
in reply to: #1235602

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.

Edited by SweetK 2008-03-24 1:09 PM


2008-03-24 1:09 PM
in reply to: #1289846

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2008-03-24 1:11 PM
in reply to: #1289852

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.

Edited by SweetK 2008-03-24 1:13 PM
2008-03-24 1:12 PM
in reply to: #1235602

Extreme Veteran
426
10010010010025
Dearborn, Michigan, USA.
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
This thread has obviously become huge and I admittedly have not read it in its entirety but I will address your primary inquiry.

A big issue with "coaching" in the U.S. is an utter lack of real accredation for so-called "coaches".

People with some races under their belt and a basic, weekend USAT coaching certification can go to Kinko's and get some business cards printed that say "Triathlon Coach" or "Certified Triathlon Coach" and they are in business.

Are these people qualified to dispense training advice? Maybe. But maybe not.

By comparison other countries, especially European countries, have a stringent set of protocols and credentials in place before a person can call themselves a "coach". It is akin to earning a Master's in physical therapy with the attendant internships at national sports training centers and the requistie undergraduate degrees. We just don't have that in the U.S. and we really need it.

The current requirements to call yourself a "triathlon coach" are not stringent enough.
2008-03-24 1:27 PM
in reply to: #1289862

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2008-03-24 1:49 PM
in reply to: #1289866

Champion
6539
5000100050025
South Jersey
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?

Thomas Demerly - 2008-03-24 2:12 PM This thread has obviously become huge and I admittedly have not read it in its entirety but I will address your primary inquiry. A big issue with "coaching" in the U.S. is an utter lack of real accredation for so-called "coaches". People with some races under their belt and a basic, weekend USAT coaching certification can go to Kinko's and get some business cards printed that say "Triathlon Coach" or "Certified Triathlon Coach" and they are in business. Are these people qualified to dispense training advice? Maybe. But maybe not. By comparison other countries, especially European countries, have a stringent set of protocols and credentials in place before a person can call themselves a "coach". It is akin to earning a Master's in physical therapy with the attendant internships at national sports training centers and the requistie undergraduate degrees. We just don't have that in the U.S. and we really need it. The current requirements to call yourself a "triathlon coach" are not stringent enough.

I haven't read through the past few pages of this either, but I definitely agree with your post. The USAT cert is a joke, and when looking for a coach, you need to delve deeper into their knowledge. Decent race results and a USAT cert doesn't mean anything. The same goes for personal trainers...



2008-03-24 2:12 PM
in reply to: #1239535

Veteran
437
10010010010025
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
smilford - 2008-02-27 4:15 PM

I just try to remember one piece of advice.

Is it working for you? If so, good. If not, CHANGE something.


+100

This is great advice.

I tend to probably be a bit on the anti-coach side . . . but that sounds too harsh. I am tainted by how many bad personal trainers are out there, saying old dogma and how many people rave about them to justify using them. I guess I project this to coaches.

What I mean . . . I have talked to many people who use a personal trainer and to several trainers at gyms. Many go to see them to get in shape and lose weight. I am stunned at the number of trainers who diagnose 'too few calories' for so many clients without holding them to at least 1 month of a complete eating diary. I am stunned at the number of people who stick with a personal trainer even though they see no quantifiable progress at all and yet rave about them.
A ton of personal trainers and nutritionists have no clue as to what they are talking about. Many stick to years old information that has been disproven.

I know there are many great coaches out there. There are bound to be some bad ones. I go back to the post I quote - if you get a coach, ask yourself it is working. Be honest. If it is, then stick with it. If not, get a new one or stop using one. Also have some criteria about what it means if it is working. I mean, if you never did a tri and you get a coach and you PR every sprint you do in your first season . . . was it the coach or just putting in some time?

I will never bang anyone for how they spend their money or how someone makes a living (a coach) or what they charge. To each their own.
2008-03-24 2:44 PM
in reply to: #1289866

Coach
10487
50005000100100100100252525
Boston, MA
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?

Thomas Demerly - 2008-03-24 1:12 PM By comparison other countries, especially European countries, have a stringent set of protocols and credentials in place before a person can call themselves a "coach". It is akin to earning a Master's in physical therapy with the attendant internships at national sports training centers and the requistie undergraduate degrees. We just don't have that in the U.S. and we really need it. The current requirements to call yourself a "triathlon coach" are not stringent enough.

Even though with tougher requirements I would probably had a tough time getting accepted for the certification in the 1st place I wish it would be different for sure. But the reality is that the requirements are rather simple and the USAT level 1 certification is a joke (although to get USAC certified is not that hard either for instance) and I've chosen not to pursue the level 2 or 3 certifications

Instead I've created a network with those coaches I consider knowledgeable not only because they understand the ‘art’ of coaching but also have a thorough understating of sports physiology. I’ve also decided to take online courses (for the moment) and buy scholar books such as “Textbook of Work Physiology” by Astrand, “Adaptation in Sports Training” by Atko Viru to advance my understating in that specific subject, and of course other specific endurance training books such as the Lore of Running by Noakes, Sicentific Training by Skiba, Training with a Powermeter By Coggan/Allen, Running Formula By Daniels, etc. I’ve also decided to pursue a MS in sports physiology next year and while I don’t have the undergraduate background, different programs still consider you a candidate as long as you can prove understanding on the topics and of course meet other (tests, etc.)

Coaches like Philip Skiba and others realized the low quality material cover at USAT certifications and took upon themselves to provide specific physiology seminars with an outstanding quality, hopefully the USAT takes notice and use this as a base to provide better certifications and toughen up the requirements.

Thomas Demerly - 2008-03-24 1:12 PM This thread has obviously become huge and I admittedly have not read it in its entirety but I will address your primary inquiry. A big issue with "coaching" in the U.S. is an utter lack of real accredation for so-called "coaches". People with some races under their belt and a basic, weekend USAT coaching certification can go to Kinko's and get some business cards printed that say "Triathlon Coach" or "Certified Triathlon Coach" and they are in business. Are these people qualified to dispense training advice? Maybe. But maybe not.

I agree with your post 100% and while I don't mean as a jab at you, the same can be said for bike fitters or any other professions as nowadays anyone can be an expert in any field; with a blog/web site one can present fancy pictures, graphics and express an opinion presenting it as pseudoscience and that’s IMO as irresponsible as a Tri coach charging for regurgitating the triathlon training bible for instance. Opinions are good and perfectly valid as long as they are presented as such...

2008-03-24 2:44 PM
in reply to: #1235602

Expert
717
500100100
Washington Court House, Ohio
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
I have finished reading the entire thread.

Wow, what a wide range of comments. Don't bother reading mine, after composing it, I realized I didn't add anything and have bored my own self.

The following comments I make regarding myself only:

1) “amiine” provided a lot of the information I found most useful.
2) I think I would like to have a coach, and coaches like “armiine” and “RocketMan” could suit me fine.
3) I am certain a coach could help me. I am toying around with the idea of getting competitive. I have been competitive twice before, once as a collegiate rower, and once a cyclist. My experience with coaches allows me to confidently state that the amount of improvement with a coach would surpass the amount of improvement I would still achieve without the coach. Simply put, to me a coach would be “more”.
4) I am not sure I am ready to add coaching to my family’s budget. (this decision was shared by many)
5) I need to think about why I answered #4 that way. I was willing to spend $3,000 on a bike and equipment, $175 on a professional bike fitting, and $100-$300 for entrance fees, travel, and lodging per race. And I don't think the coach is any less valuable.
2008-03-24 3:37 PM
in reply to: #1289866

Expert
1169
10001002525
Charlottesville, VA
Subject: RE: Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches?
Thomas Demerly - 2008-03-24 2:12 PM

By comparison other countries, especially European countries, have a stringent set of protocols and credentials in place before a person can call themselves a "coach". It is akin to earning a Master's in physical therapy with the attendant internships at national sports training centers and the requistie undergraduate degrees. We just don't have that in the U.S. and we really need it.

The current requirements to call yourself a "triathlon coach" are not stringent enough.


I understand what you're saying, but by professionalizing it to such a degree, you're pricing it out of the market for most people. And at any rate, wouldn't people offer similar services under different names anyway?

We're all big kids here -- caveat emptor.
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches? Rss Feed  
 
 
of 6