General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim question - getting frustrated with progress! Rss Feed  
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2008-05-30 8:25 AM

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Subject: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!

I am relatively new to the sport having only completed to sprint tri's, but have 3 more sprints in June, my first Oly at the end of July and a HIM in Oct.  I am making really good strides on the bike, and had a good running background coming into the sport.  I have been working hard on my swimming but do not feel like I am getting anywhere.  I have the TI video, and have also worked once with a coach,  but the lesson only lasted 30 minutes and I was then given drills to work on which I do, dilligently.  30 minutes really isnt a lot of time to get much accomplished but most swim coaches are in the neighborhood of $100/hr and I need more that a 30 minute time slot.   I swim early before work, right after the masters group finishes their swim and I talked with the lady that runs the masters swim and she said they most do intervals and work on speed.  Ok, that is definitely not for me.  I do the drills over and over and get a good 1500 meters in each session, which is a lot for me, but when I try to go longer distances without stopping, I just can't do it.  Maybe 400 at a pop, then I need about 15 secs to recover.  I must not be doing something right, stroke-wise.....just not efficient.  I want to make sure I am not reinforcing bad habits, but without someone really watching, there is no way to tell.

Any suggestions?  Thanks in advance!

Brian

 



2008-05-30 8:28 AM
in reply to: #1432749

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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!
Trail_Runner - 2008-05-30 8:25 AM

I am relatively new to the sport having only completed to sprint tri's, but have 3 more sprints in June, my first Oly at the end of July and a HIM in Oct.  I am making really good strides on the bike, and had a good running background coming into the sport.  I have been working hard on my swimming but do not feel like I am getting anywhere.  I have the TI video, and have also worked once with a coach,  but the lesson only lasted 30 minutes and I was then given drills to work on which I do, dilligently.  30 minutes really isnt a lot of time to get much accomplished but most swim coaches are in the neighborhood of $100/hr and I need more that a 30 minute time slot.   I swim early before work, right after the masters group finishes their swim and I talked with the lady that runs the masters swim and she said they most do intervals and work on speed.  Ok, that is definitely not for me.  I do the drills over and over and get a good 1500 meters in each session, which is a lot for me, but when I try to go longer distances without stopping, I just can't do it.  Maybe 400 at a pop, then I need about 15 secs to recover.  I must not be doing something right, stroke-wise.....just not efficient.  I want to make sure I am not reinforcing bad habits, but without someone really watching, there is no way to tell.

Any suggestions?  Thanks in advance!

Brian

 


Do you have video of your stroke? Pics? Kinda hard to diagnose stroke inefficiences w/o seeing you swim.
2008-05-30 8:31 AM
in reply to: #1432749

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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!

If your recent swimming is indicative of what you do, you need to swim more.  Get to the pool more frequently.  Work on basic balance drills.  Get coaching if you can.  Or maybe see if the lady who runs the Masters would be willing to spend a short bit of time helping you make sure you're doing the drills properly or what else you might be able to focus on.

Once you start being able to swim a bit more steadily (and you will), start swimming with the Masters group.

2008-05-30 8:41 AM
in reply to: #1432749

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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!
Trail_Runner - 2008-05-30 8:25 AM

she said they most do intervals and work on speed.  Ok, that is definitely not for me. 

Yes.  Yes it is!  Intervals and speed work are for EVERYONE.  20x50 does much, much more than just work on your 50 yard swim times.  That is building your endurance, speed, and you can feel your form breaking down, but with the short rest between 50s you can focus on what you need to do on the next one to correct it.

Oh, and competing in longer distance tris doesn't exactly mean you are more experienced.  Sprint tris are awesome.  My favorite distance because you have such a short window of time to empty your tank.  That is more of a challenge to me than an Oly.  It's HARD, and if you like that distance, speed and interval work will be VERY beneficial to you.  It will also be very beneficial to you for your HIM swim.  They are going to help build you a strong swim base so that you can begin to add yards to your long swims.

2008-05-30 8:46 AM
in reply to: #1432767

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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!
JohnnyKay - 2008-05-30 8:31 AM

If your recent swimming is indicative of what you do, you need to swim more. Get to the pool more frequently. Work on basic balance drills. Get coaching if you can. Or maybe see if the lady who runs the Masters would be willing to spend a short bit of time helping you make sure you're doing the drills properly or what else you might be able to focus on.

Once you start being able to swim a bit more steadily (and you will), start swimming with the Masters group.

 

x2, it's most important to just get in the pool.  I swam in HS and college so my swim is fine, but my running is horrid.  I've started running 4-5 times a week and I've seen significant gains in my runs over the past 3 months.  Switch things up, do intervals one day and distance the next, and I can guarantee you'll see results.  You may hate doing speed work and intervals, but it's going to help significantly.
2008-05-30 9:11 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!

I have no probs with doing intervals....I have had my best success in running when I incorporate interval training in my workouts.  My current pace when I try to stay relaxed and swim easy is about 2:40/100 meters, but I can definitely go much faster for 50 meters at a time maybe even do them in 30-40 secs but I would need an oxygen tank and a gurney at the end of the lane after doing a couple at that pace.  One question I have is - I know that I always looked ahead while swimming (in the beginning) so now I swim consistantly with my head down, and focusing on swimming "downhill" to keep my arse higher in the water, since it has a tendency to drop.  I also work from time to time with a buoy between my legs, but not a ton, as I don't want to become dependant on it.  I am also doing my pull drills - underwater "crab pulls" and swimming with my fists to get used to my forearms pulling through the water. 

In order to swim faster/more efficiently, do I literally pull "harder" underwater, or just try to stay relaxed and smooth?  I sometimes feel myself pulling really hard in an attempt to get through the water faster.  I do know this, everyone around me is always faster - not that it matters really, but they look like much more effortless in the water.  I am also 6'0 218, so I am easily the largest fella in the pool, but that is getting better also.  Started at 246 lbs just 3-4 months ago.  I also recently counted the # of strokes of the human torpedo in the next lane to me - he is about my height and he did about 20-21 strokes per length of the pool.  I do 24 consistantly...does that mean anything?

If I wanted to mix in intervals, what is a good interval workout for a relative beginner?

Thanks again...

Brian



2008-05-30 9:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!
I am by no means an expert in the swimming area, but having just completed my first triathlon (it was an olympic distance) and can give you my experiences. Swim the 1500 meter a couple of times a week. Even if you have to use side stroke/backstroke/etc to finish. With me, I also was only able to do about 300-400 meters at a time at first. After getting sick of my progress, I finally wentr to the pool one night and said I don't care how long it takes me, I am going to do the entire distance without stopping. After some freestyle mixed with a couple of other strokes I finished 40 minutes later. Once I did the distance the first time, it seemed like every time after that became easier. Like so many have said, swim more in irder to swim better. Hope this helps some.
2008-05-30 9:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!
x3 about JK.  Plain and simple you need to swim more; drills are nice and help improve technique but in the end our events are endurance based and if you haven't trained and adapted your body to go the distance it doesn't matter how technical sound you can swim. Plus by swimming more you WILL get to develop a better feel for the water and many aspects of your stroke will get corrected improving your stroke. Consistency is the name of the game oh and btw I think masters will help you more than just doing drills.

IMO the whole "I don't swim more or only focus on drills otherwise I might reinforce bad habits/form" is the wrong way to approach this. Of course drills are important and even better to have instruction of a coach or swim video analysis for feedback will help you improve your swim faster; however the biggest limiter for many triathletes is not necessarily technique but more a lack of swim volume.

2008-05-30 9:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!

The idea of 50m intervals is not to get your race pace down to that, it's just to simply bring your race pace down.  And it will, with patience and hard work.

Try swimplan.com

You can put your times for various distances in and it will create workouts for you based off of those.  And as others have said, swim more.  Start to slowly increase your volume because there is no substitute for time in the water.

2008-05-30 9:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!

Thanks for all the great info everyone...I already feel better about it and look forward to getting back into the water.  NOw that I think about it, I have made good improvements from when I first started back in Feb.....I could barely go 25 meters  back then.....I will keep working on it!!!

Brian

2008-05-30 9:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!
Trail_Runner - 2008-05-30 9:11 AM

In order to swim faster/more efficiently, do I literally pull "harder" underwater, or just try to stay relaxed and smooth? I sometimes feel myself pulling really hard in an attempt to get through the water faster. I do know this, everyone around me is always faster - not that it matters really, but they look like much more effortless in the water. I am also 6'0 218, so I am easily the largest fella in the pool, but that is getting better also. Started at 246 lbs just 3-4 months ago. I also recently counted the # of strokes of the human torpedo in the next lane to me - he is about my height and he did about 20-21 strokes per length of the pool. I do 24 consistantly...does that mean anything?

If I wanted to mix in intervals, what is a good interval workout for a relative beginner?

Thanks again...

Brian

 

It's not about pulling "harder," it's about efficiency.  I'm 6'3" 215 and it takes me 18-20 strokes to get to the end of the pool just because I have a long reach.  My swim coach always told me that the best way to better your time for endurance events is to literally stretch yourself out, reach forward, focus on rotation and glide through the water.  Pull all the way through your strokes and do the thumb drill (i.e.  brush your thumb across your thigh so you know that you're pulling all the way through your stroke).  I'm no expert but this has worked well for me.



2008-05-30 9:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!
Trail_Runner - 2008-05-30 8:25 AM

I do the drills over and over and get a good 1500 meters in each session, which is a lot for me, but when I try to go longer distances without stopping, I just can't do it.  Maybe 400 at a pop, then I need about 15 secs to recover.  I must not be doing something right, stroke-wise.....just not efficient.  I want to make sure I am not reinforcing bad habits, but without someone really watching, there is no way to tell.

Any suggestions?  Thanks in advance!

Brian

 



This may sound counter-intuitive as you are trying to work on speed. But, SLOW DOWN. I'm not kidding. Think about swimming as slow as you possibly can. Then swim slower then that. Lengthen each stroke. Glide. Pull again, nice long strokes. I would put money on the fact that you can do at least 600 if not 1000 if you go super slow. I taught my hubbie to swim last summer. He couldn't do any sort of distance without stopping to recover even after practicing for a few months. He had a nice stroke, good technique, but he still couldn't do a 900. I told him this (slow down, as slow as possible) and he didn't believe me. I said please, just once try it. He swam over twice his previous furthest distance in one shot doing that. Endurance first, speed second. It's the same with running. You have to run a mile before you can run a mile fast. It took me forever to learn that, but I worked for a full year on running endurance and then started speed work. Take one swim a week to swim very slow and far. Once youa re used to swimming further distances, you will find you can add speed in relatively quickly and most importantly, swim faster for a longer amount of time. Keep up with the drills, add in some speed sets once a week. But, make sure you don't skip on your slow endurance swim each week. I hope that hleps!
2008-05-30 1:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!

I also started swimming in February (had my first lesson on Feb 19th)....and it was slow at first - I, too, could BARELY swim 25m at a time - and while i haven't spent nearly as much time in the pool as I should - but  I swam 2000m non-stop (for the first time) on Tuesday in 54 min.  And I did my first tri - a mini-sprint with a 300m swim (which I did in 6:50) last Saturday.

My goal is to go to the pool 3 times/week (most weeks I only make it twice though) and work on just slow easy distance for two of those sessions and then speed/interval work on the other.  Progress is definitely being made....and it sounds like it is for you too - keep at it!!

2008-05-30 9:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim question - getting frustrated with progress!

I would do a warmup using a distance you feel comfortable doing, I use this time to get a feel for the water and get loosened up.

Pick a few drlls to do(kick,pull,balance,breath,etc) and move on to your main set.

Swim a test 50 and see what your time is, add 15-20 seconds and do intervals on that time. Start out with a number you feel comfortable with and keep adding 50's each week until you can bump it up to 100's,150's,200's. Keep the rest at 15-20 seconds during the intervals.

 Dont think of pulling harder, your pull strength will evolve as your stroke and speed improve, pushing it will lead to possible injury.

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