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2008-09-17 9:55 AM

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Champion
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Subject: Running at a high HR
I been running with people at about z3 HR lately. Since the last 3 weeks I been able to keep up with other people on our runs this helps to drive me forward and run with my HR way higher than I am confrontable running at.

Since my HR is rather high during the run will it eventually slow down at the same speed, or am I working too hard?


2008-09-17 10:06 AM
in reply to: #1679445

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The Original
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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

Yes- you probably are running too fast, but that depends on what the goal on your runs are.  If they are supposed to be easy runs, then yes- you're running too fast.  If your goal is to do a tempo run, then you're right on track.  Your runs at a Z3 HR are similiar to tempo runs.  It's good to push yourself, but not on every run. I believe that 80% of your training should be spend in a Z1-Z2 HR zone, and the harder runs make up about 20% of your training.  I read that somewhere, and can't remember where, so don't quote me on that.  But it does help to give you an idea of how often you should be running at a higher HR.

With HR training, over time (sometimes it takes awhile- it's not an overnight process) you should be able to sustain a faster pace at a LOWER HR. 

2008-09-17 10:21 AM
in reply to: #1679487

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

You can run up to your threshold (LT) for as long as you are mentally able .... and your energy level holds up.  Is it fun?  Not usually.  Will you eventually get used to that pace and your HR come down?  As long as you continue running consistantly and get enough recovery ....... of course.

But running upper Z3 all the time is not the best use of your running time.  That should really comprise no more than about 25% of your running time to be the most effective strategy (according to Daniels).

2008-09-17 12:36 PM
in reply to: #1679540

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR
Daremo - 2008-09-17 11:21 AM

But running upper Z3 all the time is not the best use of your running time.  That should really comprise no more than about 25% of your running time to be the most effective strategy (according to Daniels).

So what should make up the other 75% of your running time?  Base time vs Race prep.

Thanks

2008-09-17 1:02 PM
in reply to: #1679954

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR
squishybelly - 2008-09-17 1:36 PM
Daremo - 2008-09-17 11:21 AM

But running upper Z3 all the time is not the best use of your running time.  That should really comprise no more than about 25% of your running time to be the most effective strategy (according to Daniels).

So what should make up the other 75% of your running time?  Base time vs Race prep.

Thanks

The vast majority should be easy.  I don't know zones, so I can't help you there.  But most of your running should be easier.  If you're getting into race-specific workouts, then you incorporate more intense workouts, but even then most of your running is going to be easy.

2008-09-17 1:08 PM
in reply to: #1679954

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR
squishybelly - 2008-09-17 1:36 PM
Daremo - 2008-09-17 11:21 AM

But running upper Z3 all the time is not the best use of your running time.  That should really comprise no more than about 25% of your running time to be the most effective strategy (according to Daniels).

So what should make up the other 75% of your running time?  Base time vs Race prep.

Thanks

 

You gotta read Daniels' Running Formula for the full scoop on that one .........

Different running paces for him are Easy, Marathon, Threshold, Interval, Repetition:

Training Zone:Pace
E Easy Pace
HR: 65-79%
Qty: lesser of 25% weekly milage or 150 min
km:
mile:
M Marathon Pace
HR: 80-90%
Qty: lesser of 90 min or 16 miles
mile:
T Threshold Pace
HR: 88-92%
Qty: lesser of 10% weekly milage or 60 min
400m:
1000m:
mile:
I Interval Pace
HR: 98-100%
Qty: 8% weekly milage
400m:
1000m:
1200m:
mile:
R Repetition Pace
Qty: 5% weekly milage

And I stand corrected, Threshold should only comprise about 10% ........  As Scout mentioned, the majority would be at E and M pace.



2008-09-17 1:18 PM
in reply to: #1679445

Iron Donkey
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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR
I would highly recommend reading "Training for Endurance" by Dr. Phil Maffetone.
2008-09-17 1:29 PM
in reply to: #1679445

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

Are you running to maintain/build more speed, or are you running to build more endurance?  My dad who is 64 and has run about 15 marathons has always trained in zone 4 even when he was building endurance... sure, he might not have gotten to where he is at as fast, but damn, he is super quick for an old man (3:20 marathon).  He still trains at high heart rate all the time.. its what he's used to and he doesn't feel comfortable other wise.

So I guess it sorta depends on what youre trying to accomplish...

2008-09-17 1:55 PM
in reply to: #1680157

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR
zomvito - 2008-09-17 2:29 PM  My dad who is 64 and has run about 15 marathons has always trained in zone 4 even when he was building endurance...  He still trains at high heart rate all the time.. its what he's used to and he doesn't feel comfortable other wise.

There are many out there that would argue he would be even faster if he trained properly ....... me included in that bunch.

2008-09-17 2:04 PM
in reply to: #1680114

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

1stTimeTri - 2008-09-17 2:18 PM I would highly recommend reading "Training for Endurance" by Dr. Phil Maffetone.

Or "The Competitive Runner's Handbook" by Bob Glover.

Or "The Lore of Running" By Dr. Tim Noakes.

Or Lydiard's book.  Or Hadd.  Or Tinman.

They all have a common thread.  Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard.

I'm not singling you out for mentioning Maffetone, by the way.  I feel this way when Rick talks about Daniels or Pfitzinger, too.

2008-09-17 2:09 PM
in reply to: #1680284

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

Correct, there is no one "right" resource when it comes to running.  There are basic principles that they all work with that are common between them.

I'm just more familiar with those two.



2008-09-17 2:11 PM
in reply to: #1679445

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

I have no running background, but I'm trying to get ready for a 1/2 Marathon.  I've been following the Furman plan for the 1/2 and it is all based on pace, rather than HR.  In using the plan I find that most of my run time is spent in zone 3-4, or even higher (when doing intervals). 

Is this not a good plan to be following?  The 1/2 is in a weeks time so it doesn't really matter to change anything at this point, but I currently have a goal time of around an hour 40 - hour 43.

If I want to get faster - I want to get faster next year, so really want to make sure I follow a good plan over the next few months.  Does that mean consistently running easy - if so, I don't get how that makes you faster?

2008-09-17 2:18 PM
in reply to: #1680310

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

Here's my issue with the FIRST program:

It is meant to get you ready for a specific race.  It is NOT a good long-term program.

Running lots is the key here.  The more time you spend on your feet, the faster you will get.  It takes time, it's not very sexy, but it works.  To accomplish this, you have to be able to run often.  If you go out and run hard every day, you're not going to be able to sustain it; your body breaks down if you overstress it.  But, if you do a lot of easier running, you can build the volume.  Doing this creates several adaptations that make you faster (increased efficiency, increased economy, and all that physiology stuff).

There will come a point where you will start changing up intensity.  That's to prep for a race.  Look at it this way:

All the plans you see out there are race-specific.  They are designed to get you to a specific race.  There aren't a whole lot of plans out there telling you what to do the 6 months before you start that plan.  And most beginner plans (true beginner plans) have no high intensity work in them.  Higdon doesn't introduce that until his Advanced plans.

Make sense at all?

2008-09-17 2:21 PM
in reply to: #1679445

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR
right now, my HR is always high. Most likely due to my my weight ans conditioning. Too much of the first and not enough of the second. I know it will comedown, eventually.

kevin
2008-09-17 2:43 PM
in reply to: #1680334

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR
Scout7 - 2008-09-17 3:18 PM

Make sense at all?

Running frequency certainly makes sense - but I won't be running more than 3 times a week, with at most one long run (greater than an hour).  This is currently what I do, and it won't change - I just want to make sure I use that time as effeciently as possible.

If I currently do runs at lunch, say 8km, and run in Z3 or Z4, will I see better results over the winter by running those same distances in Z2?

2008-09-17 2:45 PM
in reply to: #1680339

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

KML - 2008-09-17 3:21 PM right now, my HR is always high. Most likely due to my my weight ans conditioning. Too much of the first and not enough of the second. I know it will comedown, eventually. kevin

No, it is merely a function of the pace/effort level.  You want to get your HR down?  Slow down ..... this means some runs may seem like not much better than walking when you are starting out, but it all serves a purpose.

Everyone tries to go out and be Helle Gebrassie on their first season out there.  It takes years and years to even approach that level.  There is no magic to it, you just have to get out there and do it.



2008-09-17 2:47 PM
in reply to: #1680386

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

squishybelly - 2008-09-17 3:43 PM If I currently do runs at lunch, say 8km, and run in Z3 or Z4, will I see better results over the winter by running those same distances in Z2?

Not really.

But even though you said it wouldn't change (your schedule), adding another 8k run another day at Z2 probably would.

2008-09-17 2:47 PM
in reply to: #1680386

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR
squishybelly - 2008-09-17 3:43 PM
Scout7 - 2008-09-17 3:18 PM

Make sense at all?

Running frequency certainly makes sense - but I won't be running more than 3 times a week, with at most one long run (greater than an hour).  This is currently what I do, and it won't change - I just want to make sure I use that time as effeciently as possible.

If I currently do runs at lunch, say 8km, and run in Z3 or Z4, will I see better results over the winter by running those same distances in Z2?

Don't know.  You will see greater short term gains.  But maintaining that....  I think you're going to peak out quickly and struggle to get beyond that.

2008-09-17 2:52 PM
in reply to: #1680386

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR
squishybelly - 2008-09-17 3:43 PM
Scout7 - 2008-09-17 3:18 PM

Make sense at all?

Running frequency certainly makes sense - but I won't be running more than 3 times a week, with at most one long run (greater than an hour).  This is currently what I do, and it won't change - I just want to make sure I use that time as effeciently as possible.

If I currently do runs at lunch, say 8km, and run in Z3 or Z4, will I see better results over the winter by running those same distances in Z2?

If you're going to limit your volume, then you will get better results by adding intensity.  But only up to a point.  That point is where you break down physically, making the intensity counterproductive.  As Scout notes, you will plateau fairly quickly following that type of plan.  And if you try to 'fix' that by running even harder, you'll probably find you regress.  If you're happy on that plateau, your regimen will probably work OK.

2008-09-17 3:16 PM
in reply to: #1679445

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

Since so many of us are challenged to add more training time - how do you get faster on a limited time budget?  The running 3 times a week is obviously paired with swims and rides.  I don't see how I can "find" more time to train, so I want the coming base building season to be as productive as possible, with the time I have.

So here's a different hypothetical.  If you have 2 x 1hr sessions, and 1 x 1.5-2hr session, for running every week, during the winter, how would you use it.  Zones, paces, etc.

Appreciate the feedback.

2008-09-17 3:21 PM
in reply to: #1679445

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

Speaking from experience here, slowing your runs to lower your heart rate DOES in fact make you faster.  I trained for months for a half-marathon, all of my runs were way too intense.  I did okay on the half-marathon (1:52, which was better than my goal), but it wasn't until I started running with a lower HR that I started to see my pace drop a bit.  

The others are right, when you start running with HR <150, you might feel like you can walk faster.  But give it a bit of time, keep focused, and the pace will get better with the same exact hear rate.  Case in point, when I started following this, my pace was an abysmal 12:30/mile . . . seriously.  Now I'm consistently running 6 miles at HR<150 at pace of 10:15 or so.  It is so easy it feels like I'm not doing anything.  This is going to be my key point to stress during the offseason to try to get my running to the next level.



2008-09-17 3:22 PM
in reply to: #1680502

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

With that schedule, for winter I'd do one tempo run a week, the rest at a comfortable pace.  Every couple weeks, I'd make the long run the tempo run.

I'd just go run most of those runs.  Don't worry about zones.  Run comfortably.  Finish feeling strong, and that you can go out and do it again right away.  Once a week, push that comfort envelope so that you're working a little harder.  Still finish strong, but feeling like it might suck to do that same workout right away.

2008-09-17 3:25 PM
in reply to: #1680502

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR
squishybelly - 2008-09-17 4:16 PM

Since so many of us are challenged to add more training time - how do you get faster on a limited time budget?  The running 3 times a week is obviously paired with swims and rides.  I don't see how I can "find" more time to train, so I want the coming base building season to be as productive as possible, with the time I have.

So here's a different hypothetical.  If you have 2 x 1hr sessions, and 1 x 1.5-2hr session, for running every week, during the winter, how would you use it.  Zones, paces, etc.

Appreciate the feedback.

Like I said before, limit yourself to 3x/wk and 3.5-4 hours and your options are, likewise, limited.  You can improve for awhile, but you will reach a plateau in a relatively short time frame ('relatively' may still be a couple years or so). 

If you want to make the offseason as productive as possible, I'd suggest focusing on 1 sport.  Maintain, or even give up, fitness in the others for the larger gains.

2008-09-17 4:10 PM
in reply to: #1680545

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR

you want to make the offseason as productive as possible, I'd suggest focusing on 1 sport.  Maintain, or even give up, fitness in the others for the larger gains.

See, now that hurts...I understand where you're coming from, but I'm just hovering at MOP this year, and need to improve in all 3 disciplines for next year.  Ironically the run is my strongest part. 

Being that this was my first full year, would continuing to focus on all 3 (similiar time commitments) be more beneficial, or focusing more heavily in one area?  This assumes I don't have a strong base in any of the sports (which I don't).



Edited by squishybelly 2008-09-17 4:11 PM
2008-09-17 5:47 PM
in reply to: #1680715

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Subject: RE: Running at a high HR
squishybelly - 2008-09-17 5:10 PM

you want to make the offseason as productive as possible, I'd suggest focusing on 1 sport.  Maintain, or even give up, fitness in the others for the larger gains.

See, now that hurts...I understand where you're coming from, but I'm just hovering at MOP this year, and need to improve in all 3 disciplines for next year.  Ironically the run is my strongest part. 

Being that this was my first full year, would continuing to focus on all 3 (similiar time commitments) be more beneficial, or focusing more heavily in one area?  This assumes I don't have a strong base in any of the sports (which I don't).

Based on that, you will almost certainly continue to see improvement from a balanced schedule. 

But I would still recommend trying to emphasize a single sport, perhaps in blocks of 8-10 weeks.  During that time, up your frequency in your focus sport to 4-5x/wk and cut the others back.  Then rotate to one of the other sports. I think you'll see better gains this way than maintaining balance through the offseason.  Bring the balance back when you get into racing season.

If possible, I would still try to run at least 3x throughout.  If you are focusing on the bike or swim, try to cut back your duration or intensity but maintain the frequency.  It seems harder to 'maintain' on just a couple runs (in my experience at least) whereas the bike and swim seem easier to do so at that level.  But that may be individual.

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