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IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL (Page 6)
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 2009-05-28 11:13 AM in reply to: #2178119 |
Champion  6046    New York, NY |  Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFLpmsmith - 2009-05-28 11:14 AM Wow! Gotta love a sue happy society. As for the "I'm a Doc" hijack...it's scary to think that with all the education, experience and training, you still find it necessary to bicker about who is better at saving lives. Get a ruler and measure it. no that is NOT the argument. The argument is being told we should be sued for helping or just go direct traffic. |
| 2009-05-28 11:14 AM in reply to: #2175921 |
Master 1699  Malvern, PA | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL the "directing traffic" reference was clearly labelled as the "standard joke" as in Ha-Ha... very funny more specifically I think he was just saying that if there is already an EMT on site then a doctor is there to give help and assistance - please let me know if that's wrong? (sincerely, for curiousity sake) again, I don't think anything was really meant by it... and I know that I don't give a crap who's around if I drop... if you have any inkling of what to do please help I think the jist of this whole thread is when do you sue and when don't you sue... the legal system is designed and present for judges, lawyers, etc. to determine whether a specific offense or action that is in a legal GRAY area falls more towards the black or more towards the white (i.e. guilty or innocent)
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| 2009-05-28 11:14 AM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL only popping back in to say that many courts require a plaintiff to plead that they are within the $$ jurisdictional limits of the court, otherwise it would have to be filed as a limited or even small claims case, in which case plaintiff could not get more than the limits of those courts. that is all. back to your regularly schedulded bickering |
| 2009-05-28 11:20 AM in reply to: #2178421 |
Master 1699 Malvern, PA | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL TriToy - 2009-05-28 12:13 PM pmsmith - 2009-05-28 11:14 AM Wow! Gotta love a sue happy society. As for the "I'm a Doc" hijack...it's scary to think that with all the education, experience and training, you still find it necessary to bicker about who is better at saving lives. Get a ruler and measure it. no that is NOT the argument. The argument is being told we should be sued for helping or just go direct traffic. that wasn't the argument... it came about because a BT EMT said that if a doctor comes up on a scene they're working and says "I'm a doctor" they usually tell them (standard joke) to "go direct traffic" I would assume the basis is just too many chiefs? I don't know... |
| 2009-05-28 11:43 AM in reply to: #2178444 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL TriToy - 2009-05-28 12:13 PM it came about because a BT EMT said that if a doctor comes up on a scene they're working and says "I'm a doctor" they usually tell them (standard joke) to "go direct traffic" I would assume the basis is just too many chiefs? I don't know... It's because the EMT or paramedic that arrives on the scene has responsibility for the patients there until they are relieved by a higher proper medical authority. If they improperly give up that authority, they risk the well being of the patient, their own license, and the licenses of the company that employs them and the overseeing medical authority (EVERY emergency response company has at least one Emergency MD at the top of the food chain). So even as an EMT basic, if you are caring for a 35 y/o woman in diabetic crisis and someone comes up and says "I'm a doctor", you don't automatically release control to them, because they might be something like a radiologist, that rarely actually sees a patient as opposed to reading x-rays, diagnostic scans, etc. They may still know the human systems and basic treatments, but they might not necessarily be up on the latest ALS and emergency field procedures. Add to that, that the guy was evidently in some sort of cardiac crisis, if the incoming doc is not ALS certified, I wouldn't let them take over. There are very specific drugs, dosings, order of use, use of defibrillators, etc., that if you aren't current, you can do a lot of damage with them. John Edited by tkd.teacher 2009-05-28 11:46 AM |
| 2009-05-28 11:46 AM in reply to: #2175934 |
Extreme Veteran 474 Ocean City | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL Dlaxman31 - 2009-05-27 1:21 PM . Does the family sue the county/state b/c no one was around to help them. I dont know it just seems a little off to me. Its sad, butliving at the beach people sue the towns all the time because the go swimming after lifeguards leave and drown. Families usually claim the city fails to keep them out of the water. Its sad tha everyone looks for a payday off the death of loved ones |
| 2009-05-28 11:47 AM in reply to: #2175921 |
Champion 8766 Evergreen, Colorado | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL After reading this entire thread and the derailing of said thread, I just sent an e-mail to my parents and sister and told them to NEVER sue anyone because I died in a race unless it's gross gross negligence (as in, the doc thought sitting on me would cure kind of negligence and yes I used that example). The only way this is ever going to change is if EVERYONE makes their wishes known to their families. These can be hard conversations to have, but you have to have them. Most of us have a few ideas of how we'd like things to go down after we die...how hard is it really to make sure the people who love you know about them? |
| 2009-05-28 11:49 AM in reply to: #2178521 |
Master 1699 Malvern, PA | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL tkd.teacher - 2009-05-28 12:43 PM TriToy - 2009-05-28 12:13 PM it came about because a BT EMT said that if a doctor comes up on a scene they're working and says "I'm a doctor" they usually tell them (standard joke) to "go direct traffic" I would assume the basis is just too many chiefs? I don't know... It's because the EMT or paramedic that arrives on the scene has responsibility for the patients there until they are relieved by a higher proper medical authority. If they improperly give up that authority, they risk the well being of the patient, their own license, and the licenses of the company that employs them and the overseeing medical authority (EVERY emergency response company has at least one Emergency MD at the top of the food chain). So even as an EMT basic, if you are caring for a 35 y/o woman in diabetic crisis and someone comes up and says "I'm a doctor", you don't automatically release control to them, because they might be something like a radiologist, that rarely actually sees a patient as opposed to reading x-rays, diagnostic scans, etc. They may still know the human systems and basic treatments, but they might not necessarily be up on the latest ALS and emergency field procedures. Add to that, that the guy was evidently in some sort of cardiac crisis, if the incoming doc is not ALS certified, I wouldn't let them take over. There are very specific drugs, dosings, order of use, use of defibrillators, etc., that if you aren't current, you can do a lot of damage with them. John thanks for the info... interesting...
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| 2009-05-28 11:50 AM in reply to: #2178539 |
Master 1699 Malvern, PA | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL jldicarlo - 2009-05-28 12:47 PM After reading this entire thread and the derailing of said thread, I just sent an e-mail to my parents and sister and told them to NEVER sue anyone because I died in a race unless it's gross gross negligence (as in, the doc thought sitting on me would cure kind of negligence and yes I used that example). The only way this is ever going to change is if EVERYONE makes their wishes known to their families. These can be hard conversations to have, but you have to have them. Most of us have a few ideas of how we'd like things to go down after we die...how hard is it really to make sure the people who love you know about them? ditto... called the wife and told her the same thing...
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| 2009-05-28 12:05 PM in reply to: #2177852 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL newleaf - 2009-05-28 10:01 AM TriToy - 2009-05-28 9:55 AM Doctors have more training to recognize cardiac issues (the prevailing theory of increased deaths in the swim are that an irregularity occurs - conduction or electrical - but rather than pass out and breathe you are face down in the water) and potentially get the appropriate treatment going. So rather than tell an MD to go direct traffic maybe see if they can HELP. Do you really think 4 years of med school and 3-12 years of residency/fellowship plus how ever many years of practice is useless???? after this thread I WILL think twice about offering aid I can tell you that! If people really think the doc should be sued! If you see me injured at a race, please come help.  You too, Fred.I don't know ... I don't have a uterus .... not sure how much help Fred would be .......  |
| 2009-05-28 12:31 PM in reply to: #2178600 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL Daremo - 2009-05-28 10:05 AM newleaf - 2009-05-28 10:01 AM TriToy - 2009-05-28 9:55 AM Doctors have more training to recognize cardiac issues (the prevailing theory of increased deaths in the swim are that an irregularity occurs - conduction or electrical - but rather than pass out and breathe you are face down in the water) and potentially get the appropriate treatment going. So rather than tell an MD to go direct traffic maybe see if they can HELP. Do you really think 4 years of med school and 3-12 years of residency/fellowship plus how ever many years of practice is useless???? after this thread I WILL think twice about offering aid I can tell you that! If people really think the doc should be sued! If you see me injured at a race, please come help. You too, Fred.I don't know ... I don't have a uterus .... not sure how much help Fred would be ....... DANGIT RICK!!!! Warn a guy, would you? I just sputtered water all over my keyboard and monitor... John |
 2009-05-28 12:40 PM in reply to: #2178200 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-05-28 12:40 PM in reply to: #2178600 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-05-28 12:43 PM in reply to: #2178119 |
| Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL pmsmith - 2009-05-28 11:14 AM Wow! Gotta love a sue happy society. As for the "I'm a Doc" hijack...it's scary to think that with all the education, experience and training, you still find it necessary to bicker about who is better at saving lives. Get a ruler and measure it. Nah, no need to measure e-wangs. My point is/was that before you dismiss someone as completely useless, it's good to know what their qualifications are. In that respect, "I'm a doctor" is about as specific as "I'm a person." It's not really about who's "better," it's about who's around and what they can do for the patient in that moment. In reality, a team of providers that's intelligently using all of its available resources is "better at saving lives." |
| 2009-05-28 12:52 PM in reply to: #2178778 |
| Master 1699 Malvern, PA | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL DrPete - 2009-05-28 1:43 PM pmsmith - 2009-05-28 11:14 AM Wow! Gotta love a sue happy society. As for the "I'm a Doc" hijack...it's scary to think that with all the education, experience and training, you still find it necessary to bicker about who is better at saving lives. Get a ruler and measure it. Nah, no need to measure e-wangs. My point is/was that before you dismiss someone as completely useless, it's good to know what their qualifications are. In that respect, "I'm a doctor" is about as specific as "I'm a person." It's not really about who's "better," it's about who's around and what they can do for the patient in that moment. In reality, a team of providers that's intelligently using all of its available resources is "better at saving lives." after all those posts... well put...
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| 2009-05-28 1:48 PM in reply to: #2178778 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by PennState 2009-05-28 1:49 PM |
| 2009-05-28 1:53 PM in reply to: #2179031 |
| Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL PennState - 2009-05-28 11:48 AM Both were from 1 poster and resulted in a de-railment of the thread. Apologies on my part, and now back to... Will this affect our sport in the future, what say you? Honestly, I think it already has, as evidenced by the swim cancellation at St. A's this year. I'm 100% positive that the RD's for the vast majority of the races in the US are aware of the lawsuit, and the implications, and they are erring on the side of caution. John |
| 2009-05-28 1:57 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL If this suit goes through and the plaintiffs are awarded a huge sum, you bet your butt it's going to affect our sport, most noticeably in the form of $$. Insurance premiums will go up, more personnel will have to be readily available, and that cost will be passed on to us...the triathlete. Not to mention that doctors at races will probably go and direct traffic rather than help a distressed athlete. |
| 2009-05-28 2:00 PM in reply to: #2179046 |
Champion 6627 Rochester Hills, Michigan Gold member | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL tkd.teacher - 2009-05-28 2:53 PM PennState - 2009-05-28 11:48 AM Both were from 1 poster and resulted in a de-railment of the thread. Apologies on my part, and now back to... Will this affect our sport in the future, what say you? Honestly, I think it already has, as evidenced by the swim cancellation at St. A's this year. I'm 100% positive that the RD's for the vast majority of the races in the US are aware of the lawsuit, and the implications, and they are erring on the side of caution. John After St. A's 2 years ago - where there was a wicked chop, not very swimmable - and someone died from a kick to the face, I think St. A's got religeon. You can't push 4000 people (many of them beginners) into a really tough swim and expect everything to be OK. And St. A's is a cash COW, 4000 people, lots of TNT, great boon for St. Pete from the hotel / dining / etc, they've a vested interest in keeping that viable. Here in Michigan, the west side of the state is notorious for having surf, and lots of it. Several swims have been cancelled there in the last couple years, most notably (and controversially) Steelhead. We'll continue to see big lake swims be cancelled due to surf, and small lake swims cancelled due to lake contamination (harder to flush out whatever happens to grow in / run into the lake). |
| 2009-05-28 2:09 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by PennState 2009-05-28 2:09 PM |
| 2009-05-28 2:23 PM in reply to: #2179091 |
| Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL Wouldn't even be a challenge then! Where is the sport in that?  |
| 2009-05-28 2:49 PM in reply to: #2179091 |
| Champion 6046 New York, NY | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL PennState - 2009-05-28 3:09 PM Hey if they cancel enough swims, maybe Rick (Daremo) will actually be able to beat me in a race oh snap!!!! |
| 2009-05-28 3:22 PM in reply to: #2179031 |
| Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL Pete, I agree. Most of the physicians were bothered by 2 points... Both were from 1 poster and resulted in a de-railment of the thread. Apologies on my part, and now back to... Will this affect our sport in the future, what say you? I think you bring up a very important point. Events like these are (thankfully) very rare, and in order to have a good outcome in an emergency you need to practice, practice, practice. It almost doesn't matter how many lifeguards are there if none of them are practiced at helping someone in a 2000-person IM field. I'm nowhere near well-versed enough to say what that training should consist of, but lifeguards and health care providers should practice this stuff in drills, simulations, etc. before race day--if they don't already. Back to a few pages ago, I also think it's absurd that there are no minimum experience requirements for a 2000-person mass-start swim. Again, I go back to USAC. An inexperienced racer is dangerous to the racers around him/her, and you have to build some experience in the slower/shorter races before you can compete with the fast kids. It makes absolutely no sense to me that any random person off the street can sign up for an IM. It's just begging for trouble. I think a minimum number of seasons racing and a minimum number of open water swims and ocean swims would be a 100% reasonable thing. Edited by DrPete 2009-05-28 3:24 PM |
| 2009-05-28 3:27 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL Just to derail this a little more... What about races being cancelled for inclement weather DURING THE RACE? This happened at Ironman Kansas 70.3 last year. The RD made an 'informed decision' (based on radar readings and park ranger recommendation) to stop the race at about 5 1/2 hours in. Estimates are that 40-50% did not get to finish (including me  )The kicker to this story is that while it was raining and there was lighning a few miles away, within 30 minutes of everyone being 'stopped' the sun came out and it was a gorgeous rest of the afternoon. Discuss. |
| 2009-05-28 3:29 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by PennState 2009-05-28 3:31 PM |
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