General Discussion Triathlon Talk » IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL Rss Feed  
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2009-05-29 6:23 AM
in reply to: #2175921

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Edited by PennState 2009-05-29 6:40 AM


2009-05-29 3:47 PM
in reply to: #2180265

Elite
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Texas
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
PennState - 2009-05-29 6:23 AM

Slugger, a couple of questions, since you seem interested in clarifying things...

  1. Have you been named in a suit before as a defendant?
  2. Are you telling us that you would be perfectly ok if I named you in a suit if you performed a good sam service on me or my family?
  3. Do you know if you have malpractice coverage outside of your home state?
  4. Could you speculate why they did not name the good sam doc in this FLa case?

I think the statement that really needed clarification (and set off the firestorm) was the following.

"John, you've got some stuff right and some stuff wrong in here. First, most paramedics get doctors away from the scene asap. Standard joke is that if someone runs up to a scene and says, "I'm a doctor!" you say, "Great, go direct traffic." Paramedics have a higher level of training in the field - they trump doctors. As in, if a doc runs up and tries to take over for advanced care, the medic MUST say no. As an EMT-B, *I* trump doctors in the field!"

I am asking for clarification because there was a lot of heated debate after the comment, and I think you could probably cool things down in a civil way if you explained a bit more. Thanks.


ETA: I have nothing but respect for EMTs and no I would not take over a scene, as I am an OB.GYN and would not know as much as you... I did do 3 months of trauma and ICU, but that was a decade ago., but I found the disparaging comments from one profession to the other to be my real problem with your statement.



I can't speak for anyone else in EMS, and I don't have any comment whatsoever about the higlighted section above, other than to say I don't agree with it.

What happens on scene when there are docs, medics, nurses, etc... has nothing to do with formal education. Assuming everyone there has a credential and a scope of practice of some sort, what matters is relevant experience. I've been a flight paramedic for almost 10 years. I've never had a single problem with a physician on scene. They've been there plenty of times. Never had a problem. I've had problems with nurse's aides, and an LVN once. But no docs.

Communication and diplomacy go a long way. Ultimately the only thing that matters is what's best for the patient. If I'm in charge, I'll go direct traffic once I've done my assessment and stabilizing treatment and they're packaged for transport if that gets my patient in the helicopter and off to definitive care more quickly.



2009-05-29 4:01 PM
in reply to: #2180265

Elite
4048
2000200025
Gilbert, Az.
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
PennState - 2009-05-29 4:23 AM

Slugger, a couple of questions, since you seem interested in clarifying things...

  1. Have you been named in a suit before as a defendant?
  2. Are you telling us that you would be perfectly ok if I named you in a suit if you performed a good sam service on me or my family?
  3. Do you know if you have malpractice coverage outside of your home state?
  4. Could you speculate why they did not name the good sam doc in this FLa case?

I think the statement that really needed clarification (and set off the firestorm) was the following.

"John, you've got some stuff right and some stuff wrong in here. First, most paramedics get doctors away from the scene asap. Standard joke is that if someone runs up to a scene and says, "I'm a doctor!" you say, "Great, go direct traffic." Paramedics have a higher level of training in the field - they trump doctors. As in, if a doc runs up and tries to take over for advanced care, the medic MUST say no. As an EMT-B, *I* trump doctors in the field!"

I am asking for clarification because there was a lot of heated debate after the comment, and I think you could probably cool things down in a civil way if you explained a bit more. Thanks.


ETA: I have nothing but respect for EMTs and no I would not take over a scene, as I am an OB.GYN and would not know as much as you... I did do 3 months of trauma and ICU, but that was a decade ago., but I found the disparaging comments from one profession to the other to be my real problem with your statement.



I'm not slugger, but I'll address the same questions since I have relevant experience

1. Yes, I've been named in lawsuits before, a few different times.

2. PERFECTLY ok? I'd be a little cheesed off, but it's understandable because I know how the system (in general) operates. Initial filing, you name everyone you can think of "just in case". The more exposure, the more potential $$ out the other end.

3. You *can* get insurance outside your home state, and especially if you've taken the higher ground and gotten a National Registry certification instead of solely a state certification you can get optional cross border coverage. State only, it depends on the state. Kind of like a teaching certification, some states are recognized as being so rigorous, they are accepted for cross certification anywhere.

4. I mentioned this a couple times, but I think the reason they didn't name the doc specifically is the last section of the complaint, which is pretty much names "persons involved", so she could be dragged into it that way. But presumably they have access to the paramedic run sheets, and if I was the medic and relinquished to a doc, you'd can be danged sure I'd have their name, state, license #, etc. all noted in my report.

I'll let slugger explain away the rest.

John
2009-05-29 6:02 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Expert
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Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
Personally, if I were to die in a triathlon full well knowing at the time I signed up that #@$% happens as it has happened before, I'd be pi$$ed off from beyond the grave if my family filed a lawsuit.
2009-05-30 2:52 PM
in reply to: #2175921


26
25
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
Well, the case is interesting and have read the posts. If there is a case, then hopefully that will be a positive change.

I am doing my first triathlon in August and the swim is in the ocean. I am a pretty good swimmer and a great prayer person so if something were to happen, I will do my best and also not want my family to sue.

Have there been people who died in triathlons before? He's not the first person? But wouldn't think the statistics are that high.

I am concerned with being trampled on and will do my best to not be.. any advice on how to prepare for the swim/mass race start?

I know it's my responsibility to with the race. Praying for the family
2009-05-30 8:55 PM
in reply to: #2183258

Veteran
295
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Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
kk74 - 2009-05-30 2:52 PM Well, the case is interesting and have read the posts. If there is a case, then hopefully that will be a positive change.

I am doing my first triathlon in August and the swim is in the ocean. I am a pretty good swimmer and a great prayer person so if something were to happen, I will do my best and also not want my family to sue.

Have there been people who died in triathlons before? He's not the first person? But wouldn't think the statistics are that high.

I am concerned with being trampled on and will do my best to not be.. any advice on how to prepare for the swim/mass race start?

I know it's my responsibility to with the race. Praying for the family


Actually yes people have died before in Triathlon's (usually during the swim)...there was a study that just came out saying how Triathletes have a higher death rate or something compared to Marathoner's...the study was a little iffy tho

The main reason is that people just think they can just do a triathlon without training much and they don't get checked by their doctor before hand to make sure they are clear. Many people have had heart attack 's and what not during the swim because they are just not prepared. I'm sure more people can add to the reason's as well.


2009-07-09 2:14 PM
in reply to: #2175921

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2009-07-09 2:20 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Expert
878
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Tallahassee, FL
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
This is insignificant in regards to the rest of this discussion, but found this to be interesting annoying:

Michelle Rice said her husband was "just really excited" about participating in his first full triathlon. He had competed earlier in the year in a half-triathlon in California.



Edited by davealt 2009-07-09 2:21 PM
2009-07-09 2:32 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
If those facts are accurate, I am not sure what the complaint is...30 second response time, can't get much faster than that.  And, if he were out swimming on his own, it would have taken a heckuva a lot longer to get to him if something had happened.   Maybe the 5 minute response time for paramedics?   Volunteers doing CPR (are lifeguard volunteers, or if not why weren't lifeguards doing it)  Maybe thats the issue

The whole thing is a shame

Edited by ChrisM 2009-07-09 2:33 PM
2009-07-09 2:33 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Extreme Veteran
3177
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Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
Thanks for that Penn State. I am curious how this will turn out. It sounds like the athlete was ready for the race and per the autopsy and the testimony of people there everything was done that could be done. The 5 minute wait for paramedics seems a little long to me but can you really sue USAT and IM NA for the paramedics being slow... not that it sounds like this would have made a difference anyway. Yes it is sad but it sounds like the guy was out of the water as fast as humanely possible per that article...

I am hoping they are found not guilty. Hard to say though playing the little kids miss their dad card but I still would question if it was the organizers fault that he died...
2009-07-09 2:36 PM
in reply to: #2273906

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2009-07-09 2:37 PM
in reply to: #2273902

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2009-07-09 2:56 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Master
2009
2000
Charlotte, NC
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
I don't understand what the family thinks could/should have been done differently.  They keep saying that IM NA didn't follow their own guidelines but I have yet to read what guidelines they didn't folow.
2009-07-09 4:17 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Master
1585
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Folsom (Sacramento), CA
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
From what I gathered from reading on ST, there are a few main issues:

1. No defibulator in a boat on course
2. No set extraction point with paramedics ready
3. Only 1 ambulance on scene

Apparently these are all things that are part of their emergnecy policy but were not followed. According to the complaint, they should have had 5 ambulances and an extraction point to bring any injuries to with paramedics waiting.
2009-07-09 4:43 PM
in reply to: #2274327

Champion
8936
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Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
uclamatt2007 - 2009-07-09 4:17 PMFrom what I gathered from reading on ST, there are a few main issues:

1. No defibulator in a boat on course
2. No set extraction point with paramedics ready
3. Only 1 ambulance on scene

Apparently these are all things that are part of their emergnecy policy but were not followed. According to the complaint, they should have had 5 ambulances and an extraction point to bring any injuries to with paramedics waiting.


I'm late to the party here, but only one of those seems legit. I wouldn't want a defibrillator in a boat. Water + electricity = bad. No need to put more lives in danger.

Not sure why the single victim needed multiple ambulances either.

The extraction point I can buy, but that wouldn't have changed a thing based on what I've read.

Edited by DerekL 2009-07-09 4:56 PM
2009-07-09 4:47 PM
in reply to: #2274369

Master
1585
1000500252525
Folsom (Sacramento), CA
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
DerekL - 2009-07-09 2:43 PM
uclamatt2007 - 2009-07-09 4:17 PMFrom what I gathered from reading on ST, there are a few main issues:

1. No defibulator in a boat on course
2. No set extraction point with paramedics ready
3. Only 1 ambulance on scene

Apparently these are all things that are part of their emergnecy policy but were not followed. According to the complaint, they should have had 5 ambulances and an extraction point to bring any injuries to with paramedics waiting.
I'm late to the party here, but only one of those seems legit. I wouldn't want a defibrillator in a boat. Water + electricity = bad. No need to put more lives in danger. Not sure why the single victim needed multiple ambulances either.The extraction point I can buy, but that wouldn't have changed a thing based on what I've read.


One the guy was on shore, it took 5 minutes for the paramedics to get to him because they were with another cardio victim. At least that is what I have gathered.


2009-07-09 5:10 PM
in reply to: #2274369

Queen BTich
12411
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Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
DerekL - 2009-07-09 5:43 PM
uclamatt2007 - 2009-07-09 4:17 PMFrom what I gathered from reading on ST, there are a few main issues:

1. No defibulator in a boat on course
2. No set extraction point with paramedics ready
3. Only 1 ambulance on scene

Apparently these are all things that are part of their emergnecy policy but were not followed. According to the complaint, they should have had 5 ambulances and an extraction point to bring any injuries to with paramedics waiting.


I'm late to the party here, but only one of those seems legit. I wouldn't want a defibrillator in a boat. Water + electricity = bad. No need to put more lives in danger.

Not sure why the single victim needed multiple ambulances either.

The extraction point I can buy, but that wouldn't have changed a thing based on what I've read.


x2. I don't see how a defibrillator on small rescue boat/dinghy would have been useful in this situation.
2009-07-09 5:32 PM
in reply to: #2175956

Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
Some questions because I wasn't even in the Tri World in Nov 2006 (actually, I think I was in Iraq). 

1) Was it THAT rough in Nov 06?  It's the gulf of Mexico...I've been in Panama City Beach during some pretty big storms and never did I see waves that would compare to the Pacific on a calm day.

2) Someone pointed-out that 2000+ people starting simultaneously on an IM.  I agree with that.  Maybe it should be in waves, but then either a) the time limit will need to be pushed-back or b) some people aren't getting their M-dot because they couldn't finish in the new time allotted.

3) I think this was a play for the family to get a settlement because the guys insurance probably had a clause that said if you die swimming in the ocean or with a waiver, you don't get your insurance.  Which reminds me that I need to go get some more insurance...

4) Has anyone ever gone swimming in the ocean for more than 5 minutes and not had the thought "this is inherently dangerous" when they set-out?  I know every time I get ready to swim in the ocean, I think through pretty thoroughly what I'm gonna do in-case of cramping, shark attack (seriously), get strange rip-current out of nowhere, etc.

and last 5) Where was Fin Man during all of this, surely he should've been named a defendant...
2009-07-09 6:17 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Regular
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Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
It is a terrible thing that someone dies while competing in an event that they love.

That being said, with any event, be it a marathon, 5k, 400m swim, 50 mile bike, whatever-----there are ALWAYS going to be risks. Even non-race events--my training rides on my road bike--there are risks. I could get hit by a car and crash into a guardrail, etc. Almost ANYTHING in life involves some sort of risk. I do alot of target shooting---there's always a small possibility that a ricochet could come back and hit me. I understand that, and take precautions to help prevent it. 

There are many safety factors that can help prevent alot of bad things happen, but in the end, things don't always work out. It's a crappy thing to say, but getting involved in extreme events that test every aspect of a human's physical abilites is the competitor's responsibility. I will keep the man's family in my thoughts and prayers, but he was doing what he wanted, and loved to do. Hopefully that's some consolation.
2009-07-09 11:23 PM
in reply to: #2273902

Master
2665
20005001002525
The Whites, New Hampshire
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
ChrisM - 2009-07-09 3:32 PM
(are lifeguard volunteers

No, lifeguards are professional rescuers. We have the same CPR training as EMTs/medics/hospital employees/other professionals.

As for defib on boat - no way! It is hard enough figuring out a dry enough spot on a pool deck! But on a kayak - yikes!

I agree, playing the kid thing is so sad.
2009-07-09 11:40 PM
in reply to: #2275151

Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
Slugger - 2009-07-09 9:23 PM
ChrisM - 2009-07-09 3:32 PM
(are lifeguard volunteers

No, lifeguards are professional rescuers. We have the same CPR training as EMTs/medics/hospital employees/other professionals.

As for defib on boat - no way! It is hard enough figuring out a dry enough spot on a pool deck! But on a kayak - yikes!

I agree, playing the kid thing is so sad.


Well, the question was really were the guards volunteers or being employed, since it said "volunteers" were giving CPR for 5 minutes until the paramedics came.  I know that guards are CPR certified.  but  if the article is accurate why aren't lifeguards giving CPR?   The volunteers may be CPR certified, but I'd be happier being treated by a guard than getting lucky with a volunteer who knows CPR 


2009-07-10 8:55 AM
in reply to: #2275166

Pro
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Simpsonville, SC
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
ChrisM - 2009-07-10 12:40 AM

Slugger - 2009-07-09 9:23 PM
ChrisM - 2009-07-09 3:32 PM
(are lifeguard volunteers

No, lifeguards are professional rescuers. We have the same CPR training as EMTs/medics/hospital employees/other professionals.

As for defib on boat - no way! It is hard enough figuring out a dry enough spot on a pool deck! But on a kayak - yikes!

I agree, playing the kid thing is so sad.


Well, the question was really were the guards volunteers or being employed, since it said "volunteers" were giving CPR for 5 minutes until the paramedics came.  I know that guards are CPR certified.  but  if the article is accurate why aren't lifeguards giving CPR?   The volunteers may be CPR certified, but I'd be happier being treated by a guard than getting lucky with a volunteer who knows CPR 


The only thing I can think of is that the paid guards were still on duty watching the other participants still in the water. Normal protocol at most pools is that the primary rescuer is in charge of the victim's care from save through CPR and defibrillation (and any other care needed) until someone with higher training arrives to take over. Not sure if the volunteers were certified guards just volunteering their time for the event. Life is risky. I told my family if I died during IMCdA, please don't sue. Know that I died doing something I loved
2009-07-10 9:08 AM
in reply to: #2274434

The Original
7834
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Raleigh/Durham
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
GomesBolt - 2009-07-09 6:32 PM Some questions because I wasn't even in the Tri World in Nov 2006 (actually, I think I was in Iraq). 

1) Was it THAT rough in Nov 06?  It's the gulf of Mexico...I've been in Panama City Beach during some pretty big storms and never did I see waves that would compare to the Pacific on a calm day.

2) Someone pointed-out that 2000+ people starting simultaneously on an IM.  I agree with that.  Maybe it should be in waves, but then either a) the time limit will need to be pushed-back or b) some people aren't getting their M-dot because they couldn't finish in the new time allotted.

3) I think this was a play for the family to get a settlement because the guys insurance probably had a clause that said if you die swimming in the ocean or with a waiver, you don't get your insurance.  Which reminds me that I need to go get some more insurance...

4) Has anyone ever gone swimming in the ocean for more than 5 minutes and not had the thought "this is inherently dangerous" when they set-out?  I know every time I get ready to swim in the ocean, I think through pretty thoroughly what I'm gonna do in-case of cramping, shark attack (seriously), get strange rip-current out of nowhere, etc.

and last 5) Where was Fin Man during all of this, surely he should've been named a defendant...


I did IM FL in '06 and it the swim was rough.  We had a cold front blow in the day before and it was just crazy WINDY!  So windy that they didn't set up the blow up M Dots in IM Villa because the wind would blow them away.  I was ok in the water and pretty comfortable- I have swam in worse- I thougth St. Anthony's in 2006 was worse than IM FL '06.  But I can see where weaker/beginner swimmers might have struggled with the IM FL swim that day- it did get rougher as the morning progressed.  I'm not sure if this guy was a strong swimmer or not and if that had anything to contribute to his distress.

Also, from what I remember IM FL did not seem to have a lot of kayakers/rescuers out there during the swim.  I don't remember seeing a lot of them at all- but maybe I was too preoccupied with the swim to notice- not sure.  I do know from past volunteering experience that IM FL is very disorganized and everything including the med tent is a huge mess.  Sue (Socks) could probably elaborate a little more on that.   But each IM race is different, so just because one IM has plenty of swim volunteers doesn't necessarily mean the other one will.  They each have different people in charge which can make a world of difference.  When it comes to volunteers IM FL is known to be really disorganized and messed up- but they do a great job of hiding all the chaos form the athletes- which is good

A few thoughts of mine to share:

As paticipants it's our respsonsilbity to properly train and make sure that our health is in check prior to starting these races.  An IM is a huge risk, given the longer distances and sometimes I wonder if people really understand how challenging these races are.  We sign an event waiver knowing the dangers.  Just because there are volunteers or lifeguards in the water does not gaurantee our lives will be saved if something happens.  There are just way too many athletes in the water with the IM mass start- it's impossible for someone in a boat or kayak to be able to make sure everyone is safe.  They do their best but that doesn't always mean that bad things can't happen.  That's one risk we take with this sport.

The loss is very sad- I feel for the family.  This is just an example of how you just never know what will happen on race day. 

Edited by runnergirl 2009-07-10 9:18 AM
2009-07-10 9:15 AM
in reply to: #2275792

Giver
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Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
runnergirl - 2009-07-10 10:08 AM   But I can see where weaker/beginner swimmers might have struggled with the IM FL swim that day- it did get rougher as the morning progressed.

 


You made the point, but I'll stress that "weaker/beginner swimmers" don't have much business entering a 140.6 race.

And really...for an ocean swim, the conditions that day were pretty mild. I'm a good swimmer and comfortable in the ocean, but the winds were offshore so the waves were small. A little choppy, sure, but nothing close to conditions a swim should ever be cancelled for.
2009-07-10 9:16 AM
in reply to: #2175921

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