General Discussion Triathlon Talk » IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL Rss Feed  
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2009-05-27 12:15 PM

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2009-05-27 12:15 PM
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2009-05-27 12:17 PM
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2009-05-27 12:19 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Extreme Veteran
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Cleveland Area
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
IM fees just went up!
2009-05-27 12:21 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Pro
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yep,
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL

The lawsuit claims the triathlon was negligent in nine instances:

— failing to properly supervise, guard, monitor, or secure the swim area and swimmers, including but not limited to the decedent;

— failing to properly organize the swim competition in a reasonably safe manner;

— failing to have proper procedures or rules governing response to emergency situations, including drownings;

— failing to provide enough supervision at the swim competition event;

— allowing Rice to enter the swim without the presence of enough lifeguards or other persons trained in first aid or cardiopulmonary resuscitation for the number of participants in the triathlon;

— failing to sufficiently research the oceanic and weather conditions to ensure the conditions were safe for swimmers such as Rice, and makes it reasonably safe from the foreseeable harm suffered by Rice;

— failing to properly provide adequate safety equipment, safety floatation equipment and life-saving equipment to aid in rescue efforts'

— failing to have a risk management program in place;

— failing to call off the competition when the conditions were such as to make it safe to continue.

 

Hard to have most of these stick.  Isn't the person assuming the risk with this sport.  Not to make a rude comment on the seriousness of the issue but:

 

Say a person goes to swim in the ocean and drowns after being hit by a wave.  Does the family sue the county/state b/c no one was around to help them.  I dont know it just seems a little off to me.

2009-05-27 12:26 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Elite
3683
20001000500100252525
Whispering Pines, North Carolina
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
Lawsuit should be thrown out and the lawyer filing it should have to pay frivolous lawsuit fees.

The triathlete signed the waiver, and participated in the event. I'm sorry for his family and the fact that he died, but he died as a result of participating in a grueling sport that has no mercy on anyone.

What if he would have died on the bike portion b/c of a crash, or on the run portion b/c of a heart attack? just sayin...we know the risks involved when we sign our names on the line.


2009-05-27 12:29 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
Boils down to three things:

1.  Unsafe generally
2.  Not enough guards/responders
3.  Unsafe conditions.

What worries me most is that it alleges that they should have called off the swim when the conditions were too unsafe "for swimmers such as" the decedent........

I don't know Florida law, but in California a well written release will (contrary to public opinion) absolve an entity from ordinary negligence.  it is only if the entity increased the inherent associated risks where the waiver won't bar liability.

Of course, it doesn't prevent a lawsuit from being filed.  The insurance co.'s will accept the tender of the claim under a reservation of rights.  So long as all the insurance requirements were met (i.e.. adequate number of lifeguards per participant, etc.) insurance will pay for the defense.  So  yeah, a waiver may help, but it still costs $$$.  Doubtful that one claim wwill cause a further increase in claims. 

But the whole "conditions warrant calling off the swim" argument sets a bad precedent IMO
2009-05-27 12:30 PM
in reply to: #2175947

Expert
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Kansas City, MO
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL

tri_d00d - 2009-05-27 12:26 PM Lawsuit should be thrown out and the lawyer filing it should have to pay frivolous lawsuit fees.

The triathlete signed the waiver, and participated in the event. I'm sorry for his family and the fact that he died, but he died as a result of participating in a grueling sport that has no mercy on anyone.

What if he would have died on the bike portion b/c of a crash, or on the run portion b/c of a heart attack? just sayin...we know the risks involved when we sign our names on the line.

Agree 100%   Sorry for the family but no one is making us race......

2009-05-27 12:31 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Champion
10471
500050001001001001002525
Dallas, TX
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
Someone dying is absolutely horrible... I feel bad for their family and friends who were affected deeply by this accident.


This case bothers me though... because once a lawsuit pops up about something... it trickles down to stricter rules and guidelines... higher fees... more money to pay for more personel on race day (not just for IM's, but for local races too)... etc.

Pretty soon they will get rid of ocean/lake swims all together because of the danger invovled. That is if lawsuits keep popping up.

Look, we all need to realize something... and so do our families and friends... we are doing something DANGEROUS that we could DIE doing. It could possibly happen. I already told people close to me that if I die doing/training for tri's... know that I died doing something I love.

AND I'll say it right here... DO NOT SUE for my death. Thanks.


Finally... I would like to see better swim starts for IM's. The mass swim start w/2,000+ people is just dangerous and lends to people being hurt and possibly killed. If people are spread out more, they have more a chance of getting away from a crowd and not being beaten silly while trying to swim.



2009-05-27 12:31 PM
in reply to: #2175947

Champion
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Frisco, TX
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL

tri_d00d - 2009-05-27 12:26 PM Lawsuit should be thrown out and the lawyer filing it should have to pay frivolous lawsuit fees.

The triathlete signed the waiver, and participated in the event. I'm sorry for his family and the fact that he died, but he died as a result of participating in a grueling sport that has no mercy on anyone.

What if he would have died on the bike portion b/c of a crash, or on the run portion b/c of a heart attack? just sayin...we know the risks involved when we sign our names on the line.

Hopefully they will not settle out of court - that will only encourage others to file frivolous suits.  Isn't there a group suing the Chicago Marathon after last fall?  What happened to personal responsbility?

2009-05-27 12:32 PM
in reply to: #2175952

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2009-05-27 12:44 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Coach
10487
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Boston, MA
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
Yikes, I did NOT know I could end up hurt (even dying) by choosing to participate in a triathlon by my own free will. OMG, that's horrible, I am hanging the sneakers and selling the bikes ASAP...

(sorry for the affected family but I really really really hope the lawsuit is discarded...)
2009-05-27 12:50 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Extreme Veteran
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Zephyrhills, FL
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
this is a very unfortunate situation, but i really have a hard time with the accusations of the guys family. i mean you are entering a competition that involves a 2.4 mile swim in the ocean. how in the world are the race organizers supposed to take care of the weather? with 1000's of entrants and 100's of times more money involved, you cant just cancel the swim because of rough water....ITS THE OCEAN for crying out loud. i suppose that the race organizers should have made sure there were no sharks, stingrays, eels, etc. within a 5 mile radius as well. please dont mistake my tone for not caring, i would be devastated if this happened to someone close to me. unfortunately the fact is that everytime we enter a race, whether it be ironman or sprint distance, we are taking our lives into our own hands and placing ourselves out in deep water with the hope that our abilities will allow us to complete the swim portion of the race. im sure that is something we all think about, but that is the truth. i personally think that this lawsuit is ridiculous.

now if we find out that there was significant negligence on the part of any medical staff, i would pull a complete 180 and say the suit is legit, but only in regards to the staff, having nothing to do with the weather conditions, etc.

Edited by JonCT 2009-05-27 12:56 PM
2009-05-27 12:54 PM
in reply to: #2175947

Iron Donkey
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, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL

tri_d00d - 2009-05-27 12:26 PM Lawsuit should be thrown out and the lawyer filing it should have to pay frivolous lawsuit fees.

The triathlete signed the waiver, and participated in the event. I'm sorry for his family and the fact that he died, but he died as a result of participating in a grueling sport that has no mercy on anyone.

What if he would have died on the bike portion b/c of a crash, or on the run portion b/c of a heart attack? just sayin...we know the risks involved when we sign our names on the line.

BINGO.

2009-05-27 12:57 PM
in reply to: #2176018

Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
. now if we find out that there was significant negligence on the part of any medical staff, i would pull a complete 180 and say the suit is legit, but only in regards to the staff, having nothing to do with the weather conditions, etc.


Well, here's the conundrum.  If this is the case, unless NAS/WTC/USAT freely admit to such conduct (which, you can be sure their lawyers would advise against.....   can't lay this all at the feet of the plaintiffs' bar), how would the family ever know that to be the case without suing (there are instances in which claims are settled prior to lawsuits being brought, no idea if it was attempted or not)?  Hopefully, what actually happened will come out in discovery and depositions (or, they may try to hide everything, both sides, as often unfortunately happens)

I agree that there are frivolous lawsuits out there.  I also believe that people who believe they have a righteous claim deserve their day in court.  If the system works as it should, and believe it or not it usually does, if this is frivolous it will be ferretted out.  And I am not a plaintiffs' p.i. lawyer

Personally, unlike others I don't have enough information to say that this is frivolous or not.
2009-05-27 12:59 PM
in reply to: #2176034

Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
1stTimeTri - 2009-05-27 10:54 AM

tri_d00d - 2009-05-27 12:26 PM Lawsuit should be thrown out and the lawyer filing it should have to pay frivolous lawsuit fees.

The triathlete signed the waiver, and participated in the event. I'm sorry for his family and the fact that he died, but he died as a result of participating in a grueling sport that has no mercy on anyone.

What if he would have died on the bike portion b/c of a crash, or on the run portion b/c of a heart attack? just sayin...we know the risks involved when we sign our names on the line.

BINGO.



What if he died on the bike couse because a race official, seeing him coming, didn't realize how fast he was going, and waved a car though a monitored intersection that hit him?  bingo?

eta - I am not here to defend lawsuits or this one, just to point out that it is not (to me at least) so cut and dried.

Edited by ChrisM 2009-05-27 1:00 PM


2009-05-27 1:02 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Champion
6046
5000100025
New York, NY
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
So what is the point of the waiver we sign that includes the fact that we might die? Doesn't that put the burden on the participant?
2009-05-27 1:03 PM
in reply to: #2175947

Regular
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100
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
tri_d00d - 2009-05-27 12:26 PM Lawsuit should be thrown out and the lawyer filing it should have to pay frivolous lawsuit fees.

The triathlete signed the waiver, and participated in the event. I'm sorry for his family and the fact that he died, but he died as a result of participating in a grueling sport that has no mercy on anyone.

What if he would have died on the bike portion b/c of a crash, or on the run portion b/c of a heart attack? just sayin...we know the risks involved when we sign our names on the line.


That's a really broad statement you just made there and I think the logic in your analogy is pretty flawed. 

The organizers of this event do not need to guarantee every single athlete will emerge from the event unharmed and alive, but they do need to take REASONABLE measures to ensure the athlete's safety.  Based on what I read about this case it would seem the organizers did not live up to their side of the agreement by providing a REASONABLY safe swim area for the athletes.

We all understand the inherent risks involved with this kind of sport (or any kind of sport for that matter).  Sure, you could have a bad ticker that is going to decide to fail on race day.  Or some ignorant biker could brake suddenly and cause a pileup.   But when we sign up and pay money to enter an event, there is also an expectation that the organizer will put forth a reasonable amount of effort to make sure we can safely compete.

2009-05-27 1:06 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Elite
2645
200050010025
Phoenix, AZ
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL

I nead to make this clear to my family... If I die, please don't file frivolous lawsuits on my behalf.

2009-05-27 1:08 PM
in reply to: #2175955

New Haven, CT
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
KSH - 2009-05-27 1:31 PM..... Finally... I would like to see better swim starts for IM's. The mass swim start w/2,000+ people is just dangerous and lends to people being hurt and possibly killed. If people are spread out more, they have more a chance of getting away from a crowd and not being beaten silly while trying to swim.


First, any death like this is tragic and none of us should judge why the family is suing.

Second, we can look at the merits of the case and the methodology for analyzing the case.  In this regard, I'll make 2 lawyer comments (if nothing else to play devil's advocate) and then shut up: the above statement is true and may be a valid reason for finiding negligence (which is a violation of a reasonable standard of care).  Thus, the judge (and perhaps a jury) will need to determine whether the start method is reasonable under the circumstances (i.e. why no wave starts, etc.).  Also, the doctrine of "assumption of the risk" has largely been replaced with a doctrine called "comparative negligence" whereby the victim's wrongful conduct is weighed against the perpetrator's (tortfeasor) conduct.  In Connecticut if one's one misconduct is more than 50%, you don't recover.  Sorry to be lawyer guy, but there is a case here: mass starts with thousands of people are dangerous and known to be so.  Wave starts reduce the risk and there is a substantial question as to why wave starts are not done in large events like these.  

Fire away.

2009-05-27 1:10 PM
in reply to: #2175947

Champion
8766
5000200010005001001002525
Evergreen, Colorado
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
tri_d00d - 2009-05-27 12:26 PM Lawsuit should be thrown out and the lawyer filing it should have to pay frivolous lawsuit fees.

The triathlete signed the waiver, and participated in the event. I'm sorry for his family and the fact that he died, but he died as a result of participating in a grueling sport that has no mercy on anyone.

What if he would have died on the bike portion b/c of a crash, or on the run portion b/c of a heart attack? just sayin...we know the risks involved when we sign our names on the line.


I totally agree with the d00d.

Unfortunately we live in greedy America where everyone feels they have to right to sue for anything.

I feel for the family as well...but seriously...bad things happen.  It's a fact of life.  Things like this are no one's fault.  You cannot prevent ALL accidents.  You can work very hard to prevent most of them...but there will always be some that sneak through.


2009-05-27 1:12 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Elite
2645
200050010025
Phoenix, AZ
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL

If an athlete trains for 6 months with full intention of participating in a mass start, how can WTC be faulted for hosting a mass start?

2009-05-27 1:13 PM
in reply to: #2176018

Elite
4048
2000200025
Gilbert, Az.
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
JonCT - 2009-05-27 10:50 AM this is a very unfortunate situation, but i really have a hard time with the accusations of the guys family. i mean you are entering a competition that involves a 2.4 mile swim in the ocean. how in the world are the race organizers supposed to take care of the weather? with 1000's of entrants and 100's of times more money involved, you cant just cancel the swim because of rough water....ITS THE OCEAN for crying out loud. i suppose that the race organizers should have made sure there were no sharks, stingrays, eels, etc. within a 5 mile radius as well. please dont mistake my tone for not caring, i would be devastated if this happened to someone close to me. unfortunately the fact is that everytime we enter a race, whether it be ironman or sprint distance, we are taking our lives into our own hands and placing ourselves out in deep water with the hope that our abilities will allow us to complete the swim portion of the race. im sure that is something we all think about, but that is the truth. i personally think that this lawsuit is ridiculous. now if we find out that there was significant negligence on the part of any medical staff, i would pull a complete 180 and say the suit is legit, but only in regards to the staff, having nothing to do with the weather conditions, etc.


There's a few points - The race has 600+ more competitors than it used to, it could be argued that that is something that creates a negligence, too many people to monitor (Failure to provide adequate support staff).

Conditions.

I did a little googling, and on a message board called Topix, there was a statement from the MD that supposedly did the mouth to mouth and intubation. She was a SPECTATOR, not on staff, there to watch her husband compete. If that is true, I am astonished that she wasn't named as well. I'd also be interested whether or not she was a Florida resident, as there are licensing issues if she wasn't.

Waivers protect the RD's and organizers from normal negligence. Something like your tubular blowing out and you endoing is covered. If it's proven the tubular blew because of faulty sweeping and leaving glass all over a section, that is negligent and not covered, because the RD failed in their duty to provide a safe, clean bike course.

They (race waivers) cover accidents, but they don't cover negligence. (Just like if some klutz falls down your steps, it's an accident. If they fall down because the rug was loose, negligence and you can be liable.)

But, they are also demanding a jury trial, which means they are going heavily play the sympathy angle. "Here's this angelic father of three, provider for his family, enjoying his chosen recreational activity, when the big bad evil corporation screwed up and he died!"

John
2009-05-27 1:13 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL
Reading the additional stories in that paper, it indicates that while the autopsy says drowning was the cause of death, Rice also had "moderate pulmonary edema". The medical profession, to my knowledge, does not know why, fully, pulmonary edema happens to swimmers, but they have a name for it, Swimming Induced Pulmonary Edema (SIPE). A full autopsy was not completed so they did not look into weather there were any underlying issues with him.

I don't get how the race organizers didn't provide a 'reasonably' safe swim area for the athletes tough? The other 2000+ athletes didn't seem to have many problems.

Additionally, the man died near the end of the swim (approx 350m from the end), so the mass start, while 'dangerous' in its own right???? was not the cause of his death.

Edited by JustTriDave 2009-05-27 1:18 PM
2009-05-27 1:15 PM
in reply to: #2175921

Master
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Toronto
Bronze member
Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL

I wasn't at IMFL but i spectated at IMC in 2007 and they had soooooo many precautions. Divers, kayaks, divers (I think) and tons of people watching from boats but, sadly, not all risks can be eliminated.  A little bit of the nature of just about everything in life.

Deep sympathies to the family. I can't imagine what a loss like that.

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