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2009-06-01 6:27 PM

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Subject: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
So, I started training in January for a sprint that is next week.  Not too long ago I started thinking I could go longer and have targeted an olympic and now a half that I want to do.  Then last week my wife talked me into doing a marathon on about a month after the half ironman.  So, suddenly my race schedule is shaping up to look like this:

Sprint - 6/7
Oly - 8/30
Sprint - 9/12
Half IM - 9/20
Mary - 10/18



2009-06-01 6:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
Well, you certainly have the volume going to ramp things up.  While it does not appear to be a problem to get the training in as necessary, my only question would be ...... why??  You don't have to do it all in one season and even for someone who has been doing it a while, doing a HIM and then a marathon a few weeks later is a big task.  Throw in that you have not done either distance before (and haven't even completed your first tri race yet) and I would say take your time!!  You have no idea how your body will recover from the 1/2 and marathon training (when done properly) is a big chunk of training time and effort.

Based on what I saw in your logs, I think you could do it.  I would just advise against that path personally.  You just started on this journey, you don't need to do it all at once!  But your training is looking solid.

Edited by Daremo 2009-06-01 6:53 PM
2009-06-01 7:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
No comment on the wisdom of doing a mary so soon after HIM.  I'm inexperienced, but I have done both, and the HIM felt harder.  (That may be because it was hotter and I screwed up the pacing.)
2009-06-01 7:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
Daremo - 2009-06-01 5:52 PM
I would just advise against that path personally. 

+2. Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should. It's easy in this sport to end up with a chronic injury that is difficult to shake. I've been forced out of this sport once before from an injury that took years from which to fully recover. So I will personally always err on the cautious side when it comes to taking on a challenge that could effect my ability to participate over the long-term.
2009-06-01 10:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
acumenjay - 2009-06-01 4:27 PM So, I started training in January for a sprint that is next week.  Not too long ago I started thinking I could go longer and have targeted an olympic and now a half that I want to do.  Then last week my wife talked me into doing a marathon on about a month after the half ironman.  So, suddenly my race schedule is shaping up to look like this:

Sprint - 6/7
Oly - 8/30
Sprint - 9/12
Half IM - 9/20
Mary - 10/18



Hrm.

While I'll trust Rick on your training volume, the last part of your season is an Olympic, 12 days to a sprint, 8 days to a HIM, and then 4 weeks to a marathon??

I wouldn't commit to any of that, and I would definitely drop the sprint in the middle. I wouldn't want to race 3 races in 20 days with the Oly and the HIM both being new distances. See how you feel after the HIM before committing to the mary.

John
2009-06-01 10:55 PM
in reply to: #2188362

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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
tkd.teacher - 2009-06-01 8:51 PM
acumenjay - 2009-06-01 4:27 PM So, I started training in January for a sprint that is next week.  Not too long ago I started thinking I could go longer and have targeted an olympic and now a half that I want to do.  Then last week my wife talked me into doing a marathon on about a month after the half ironman.  So, suddenly my race schedule is shaping up to look like this:

Sprint - 6/7
Oly - 8/30
Sprint - 9/12
Half IM - 9/20
Mary - 10/18



Hrm.

While I'll trust Rick on your training volume, the last part of your season is an Olympic, 12 days to a sprint, 8 days to a HIM, and then 4 weeks to a marathon??

I wouldn't commit to any of that, and I would definitely drop the sprint in the middle. I wouldn't want to race 3 races in 20 days with the Oly and the HIM both being new distances. See how you feel after the HIM before committing to the mary.

John


 what he said  ^^^^^^, well what they all said.  That's a path to injury right there (forme)


2009-06-02 3:17 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
I tend to "over do" things a little, but this seems like WAY over doing things.

Personally, I think you would be better with more time in between each event for more consistent training, recovery, and taper.

Also, what is the purpose of signing up for a HIM before you have even done a sprint? 

Do the sprint, if you love it and want to do longer events, pick a longer event.  But I think you should give yourself more time between them.

Just my opinion,
Michael

2009-06-02 5:28 AM
in reply to: #2187780

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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

acumenjay - 2009-06-01 7:27 PM So, I started training in January for a sprint that is next week.  Not too long ago I started thinking I could go longer and have targeted an olympic and now a half that I want to do.  Then last week my wife talked me into doing a marathon on about a month after the half ironman.  So, suddenly my race schedule is shaping up to look like this:

Sprint - 6/7
Oly - 8/30
Sprint - 9/12
Half IM - 9/20
Mary - 10/18

If your wife is doing only the Mary, I would put the HIM off until next year and throw a couple of sprints and olys into your later summer schedule.

Here is my cautionary tale:  I, too, planned a Marathon 2 months after my first HIM last September.  I was on or ahead of track on run mileage going into the HIM.  Then, inexplicably (or not!), I got plantar fasciitis.  I didn't run from October 2008 until April 2009 and am only now up to a whopping 4 miles on my long run.  It sucks to be out - better to be careful adding your distance and not risk an injury.

2009-06-02 7:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
My 2 cents.

It depends on the intensity. If you're planning "racing" all these events, it's probably too much. ("Race" in this case meaning going all out, leaving it all on the course, etc.)

However, you want to race a couple, and just do the others to finish, have the experience, for fun etc., then it's very feasible.

I trained for and did my first HIM in August of '01. A month later I did another HIM just "for fun" because I was already in shape. I didn't push it. I just treated it as a long swim, a long bike and a long run with a bunch of other people. I had done 3 sprints earlier in the summer because I was new to tri's and wanted the practice.

I think you could do your HIM and a marathon a month later as long as you went relatively easy on one of them and took time to recover after your HIM. The spints and oly would be good experience (OWS, transition, etc.) as long as you didn't kill yourself at each one.

Of course there is the cost of all these. It adds up. But hey, it's only money. :-)

Good luck,
JC
2009-06-02 9:00 AM
in reply to: #2188683

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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
JC in Cinci - 2009-06-02 7:41 AM My 2 cents. It depends on the intensity. If you're planning "racing" all these events, it's probably too much. ("Race" in this case meaning going all out, leaving it all on the course, etc.) However, you want to race a couple, and just do the others to finish, have the experience, for fun etc., then it's very feasible. I trained for and did my first HIM in August of '01. A month later I did another HIM just "for fun" because I was already in shape. I didn't push it. I just treated it as a long swim, a long bike and a long run with a bunch of other people. I had done 3 sprints earlier in the summer because I was new to tri's and wanted the practice. I think you could do your HIM and a marathon a month later as long as you went relatively easy on one of them and took time to recover after your HIM. The spints and oly would be good experience (OWS, transition, etc.) as long as you didn't kill yourself at each one. Of course there is the cost of all these. It adds up. But hey, it's only money. :-) Good luck, JC


JC, that is what I was sort of planning.  I just need to get some experience in the environment under my belt and am not planning to redline any of it.

That being said, thanks for the feedback guys, I think I inherently knew I was taking on a little too much which prompted the post.  I think I need to re-plan the schedule.

I did need to be talked down because as you can probably tell, I get obsessive and usually stick to the "go big or go home" mentality (as do most of us here I'm sure...isn't that why we're all doing this?).

The later sprint is the local race so I'm definitely doing it.  But I'm taking that as a nice training day with some transition practice.  I think the half IM may be too much too take on right now unless I only run a half Mary that day and let the wife do the full alone (I can be her pace setter the first half , I think I can sell that in ).  The wife is only running the Mary and we are doing it for our anniversary in Newport so I'm locked into that one too.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback again.
2009-06-02 9:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
I agree with Daremo- what's the point? Specifically, what's the point of the marathon?

I get ramping up to the HIM, and having that at the end of your season is a great goal. But if you try to add marathon training into the mix, you are just begging for some type of injury. Additionally, by trying to get the marathon training in, you aren't going to fully enjoy any of the other races you have planned, because your legs will be sore and you will constantly be trying to recover from the long runs.

Why not have the HIM as your goal, then pick a January marathon? Go on vacation to FL or CA and run a marathon, that way you can do it fully prepared. And, you can be fully prepared for the HIM as well. Also, have you taken into account tapering time and recovery time? A typical taper is 2 weeks from the HIM, recovery is at least a full week, then tapering for a marathon is usually 2 weeks as well- that takes up all of the final 1.5 mos. before your marathon, which are when you would typically be doing your most important long runs- it just doesn't really fit.

Personally, when I started, I went from just a marathon runner to HIM in 6mos, so it can be done, for sure, I just don't think you should risk the chance of an injury by also training for the marathon. Just talk to anyone that's injured right now, and being stuck on the sideline is waay worse than waiting a few months to accomplish a goal.


EDIT- just read your post- you could do the half IM, and then the half marathon, and have the best of all worlds

Edited by jazz82482 2009-06-02 9:07 AM


2009-06-02 9:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

acumenjay - 2009-06-01 7:27 PM So, suddenly my race schedule is shaping up to look like this:

Sprint - 6/7
Oly - 8/30
Sprint - 9/12
Half IM - 9/20
Mary - 10/18
Complete Burnout - 10/19


Fixed. That's assuming you don't get injured first.

2009-06-02 10:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
Your run looks like your weakness.  You would have to amp your run up just for the HIM.  A mary is a beast of another torture.  I have no idea how you are going to fit in 4 x 18 + mile runs in there.  I wasn't up to snuff after my first HIM last year until 2 weeks later.  Ya I could do some lite stuff 3-4 days later, and then a recovery equivalent week after that and then back to training regular at around 2 weeks.  I then took a full 3 months to amp my run up for a first marathon.  Like everyone said, this is a journey, the races will be there for you when you are ready for them.  I would drop the 9/12 sprint and the HIM or the Mary.  The HIM will be easier for you to complete with your strong swim and bike than the Mary will be.  
2009-06-02 10:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
Man, the alarmists are out in force.  Whatever happened to HTFU?

Just did a marathon 23 days after an HIM (Wildflower, in fact) and it wasn't that big a deal (PR'ed the mary with a ~top 5% finish)...but only because I trained for both.  The trick is to get your mary training out of the way just before you have to taper for the HIM.  In my case, the one thing I'd have changed was that my last 20 mile training run was a bit too close to my HIM and I'm sure it had an impact on my run there...but I'd promised to do that 20 miler with my wife (it was her first mary...and her first 20-miler), so I "took one for the team" and compromised my HIM taper to give my wife some support.  I think if I'd done that run 10 days before the HIM, instead of 6, I'd have been better off and both races would have been fine.

And, fwiw, I was back to full training five days after the mary (and 4 weeks after the HIM).

You can do it if you plan your training properly...I'd lose the sprint in the middle, though, mostly because you realistically will need to do your last long marathon training run in the days immediately before it in order to allow for any semblance of a taper for the HIM.  Good luck!
2009-06-02 10:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
tcovert - 2009-06-02 11:45 AM

Man, the alarmists are out in force.  Whatever happened to HTFU?

Just did a marathon 23 days after an HIM (Wildflower, in fact) and it wasn't that big a deal (PR'ed the mary with a ~top 5% finish)...but only because I trained for both.  The trick is to get your mary training out of the way just before you have to taper for the HIM.  In my case, the one thing I'd have changed was that my last 20 mile training run was a bit too close to my HIM and I'm sure it had an impact on my run there...but I'd promised to do that 20 miler with my wife (it was her first mary...and her first 20-miler), so I "took one for the team" and compromised my HIM taper to give my wife some support.  I think if I'd done that run 10 days before the HIM, instead of 6, I'd have been better off and both races would have been fine.

And, fwiw, I was back to full training five days after the mary (and 4 weeks after the HIM).

You can do it if you plan your training properly...I'd lose the sprint in the middle, though, mostly because you realistically will need to do your last long marathon training run in the days immediately before it in order to allow for any semblance of a taper for the HIM.  Good luck!


I would be all about HTFU if he had a base in anything, but he just started training, overall- in all 3 disciplines (i think?), this January. You, personally, can handle the mary right after wildflower cause you've already done tones of marathons and other races, right?

Nothing is wrong with HTFU, until you get a stress fracture and can't do ANY of your races
2009-06-02 12:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

tcovert - 2009-06-02 11:45 AM Man, the alarmists are out in force.  Whatever happened to HTFU?

Just did a marathon 23 days after an HIM (Wildflower, in fact) and it wasn't that big a deal (PR'ed the mary with a ~top 5% finish)...but only because I trained for both.  The trick is to get your mary training out of the way just before you have to taper for the HIM.  In my case, the one thing I'd have changed was that my last 20 mile training run was a bit too close to my HIM and I'm sure it had an impact on my run there...but I'd promised to do that 20 miler with my wife (it was her first mary...and her first 20-miler), so I "took one for the team" and compromised my HIM taper to give my wife some support.  I think if I'd done that run 10 days before the HIM, instead of 6, I'd have been better off and both races would have been fine.

And, fwiw, I was back to full training five days after the mary (and 4 weeks after the HIM).

You can do it if you plan your training properly...I'd lose the sprint in the middle, though, mostly because you realistically will need to do your last long marathon training run in the days immediately before it in order to allow for any semblance of a taper for the HIM.  Good luck!

I'm all for HTFU, but you risk injury trying to build run and bike fitness in such a small window.  As I said before, it happened to me.  I was doing awesome last year training for my Sept. HIM and Dec. Mary at the same time.  My long run was up to 17.6 miles with no significant discomfort and I was in the best shape of my life.  I figured that I had plenty of time to recover from HIM and then start the really long runs for the Mary.  Instead, right after my HIM (A race, so I went balls-out), I injured myself and am still paying for it with 4 mile long runs and extra lbs.

OP's run base for 2008 is almost half of tcovert's and there is no 2007 data.  If that means that there was no running in 2007, it might be a little soon to try to do both the HIM and Mary a month apart.  That's not OP being a wuss, needing to HTFU - it's being smart and scheduling well.  No reason OP can't do the Mary with his wife and make next year the year of the HIM.



2009-06-02 12:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

edited for double-post



Edited by Mrs. brown_dog_us 2009-06-02 12:08 PM
2009-06-02 12:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
I do not prescribe to the "race at a training pace" thing.  If you are paying the money to toe the line, you race to the best of your ability that day.  If you are going into it and training through it as a "C" race, that is fine.  You just won't perform as well as you would rested.  But to me if you do not leave everything out on the course, you just wasted your money and could have accomplished the same thing at home for free.

Edited by Daremo 2009-06-02 12:45 PM
2009-06-02 12:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
Daremo - 2009-06-02 1:44 PM I do not prescribe to the "race at a training pace" thing.  If you are paying the money to toe the line, you race to the best of your ability that day.  If you are going into it and training through it as a "C" race, that is fine.  You just won't perform as well as you would rested.  But to me if you do not leave everything out on the course, you just wasted your money and could have accomplished the same thing at home for free.


X2. 

Even if you sign up with the intent of taking it easy, you can kiss that plan bye-bye (if you are a competitive person), by the time you get to the starting line.

2009-06-02 12:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
Schedule looks fine up untill the HIM and Mary. I would pick one or the other - not both.

I've done the Mary a couple of weeks after a HIM but have a few seasons under my belt.
2009-06-02 1:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

cusetri - 2009-06-02 12:52 PM
Daremo - 2009-06-02 1:44 PM I do not prescribe to the "race at a training pace" thing.  If you are paying the money to toe the line, you race to the best of your ability that day.  If you are going into it and training through it as a "C" race, that is fine.  You just won't perform as well as you would rested.  But to me if you do not leave everything out on the course, you just wasted your money and could have accomplished the same thing at home for free.


X2. 

Even if you sign up with the intent of taking it easy, you can kiss that plan bye-bye (if you are a competitive person), by the time you get to the starting line.

Strangely, there are competitive people out there who can put training sessions or races of lessor importance in the proper context.  If you are one of them, are willing to put in long hours and risk the possibility of injury, go for it.  I would say its probably a bit of a stretch to ramp up that quick but if you kept your volume build reasonable and tried to build endurance with little if any speed focus you could pull it off.  This will require discipline though so you need to be honest with yourself on if you can look at the big term picture.



2009-06-02 1:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
A "smart" person schedules their races in a way that enhances their training while still giving 100% during the race and uses it as a specific workout for a specific intensity session and then organizes their recovery and build around it.

But that is just my philospohy.  I'm not your coach, so you have no obligation or even a need to listen to me.
2009-06-02 1:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
jszat - 2009-06-02 11:02 AM

Strangely, there are competitive people out there who can put training sessions or races of lessor importance in the proper context.  If you are one of them, are willing to put in long hours and risk the possibility of injury, go for it.  I would say its probably a bit of a stretch to ramp up that quick but if you kept your volume build reasonable and tried to build endurance with little if any speed focus you could pull it off.  This will require discipline though so you need to be honest with yourself on if you can look at the big term picture.



Hrm. "risk injury, bit of a stretch, but go for it." Solid advice, there.

It's called endurance sport for a reason. Endurance athletes rarely are competitive their first couple of seasons, mainly because there are long term benefits to a solid base, and then using a solid base to build from.

If you want to treat them as extended training days, it's doable, but then why enter the race? Just do a long training day and save the $$.

A triathlon a week for three weeks (Oly to sprint to HIM) is grueling even for more experienced competitors. The only one that you could even consider an 'A' race out of those is the Oly. And, after a first ever HIM, 4 weeks more to a first ever marathon?

The ONLY reason to do that kind of a schedule is if you're just marking things off on a bucket list.

John
2009-06-02 1:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?
jszat - 2009-06-02 2:02 PM

cusetri - 2009-06-02 12:52 PM
Daremo - 2009-06-02 1:44 PM I do not prescribe to the "race at a training pace" thing.  If you are paying the money to toe the line, you race to the best of your ability that day.  If you are going into it and training through it as a "C" race, that is fine.  You just won't perform as well as you would rested.  But to me if you do not leave everything out on the course, you just wasted your money and could have accomplished the same thing at home for free.


X2. 

Even if you sign up with the intent of taking it easy, you can kiss that plan bye-bye (if you are a competitive person), by the time you get to the starting line.

Strangely, there are competitive people out there who can put training sessions or races of lessor importance in the proper context.  If you are one of them, are willing to put in long hours and risk the possibility of injury, go for it.  I would say its probably a bit of a stretch to ramp up that quick but if you kept your volume build reasonable and tried to build endurance with little if any speed focus you could pull it off.  This will require discipline though so you need to be honest with yourself on if you can look at the big term picture.



I dont think so, and if so, they I dont think they understand what "b" and "c" races are and I dont think they are very competitive.

they only thing, IMO, that should prevent your maximum potential in a B or C race is not being as rested as you would coming into an A race.  if you go into a race and dont give your all that day, well, its not a race, and you should have stayed home. 

honestly, i think its a misconception in the endurance world that a B or C race is run at a training intensity.  this is false, under the true definitition of a B or C race.  the only difference is the training schedule leading up to said race.
2009-06-02 1:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

The ONLY reason to do that kind of a schedule is if you're just marking things off on a bucket list.

John


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