General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Increasing Run Speed Rss Feed  
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2009-07-20 11:21 AM

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Subject: Increasing Run Speed
After my first HIM I realize how poorly I run. Swim and bike splits were great but the run was terrible. And I don't think it was due to going too hard on the bike. Most other distances my run placement doesn't match my swim and bike.

I know there's tons of threads on BT about running faster, but feeling lazy and don't want to do the search. Most threads say run more (I typically run 3 days / week following a tri plan),

Anybody have their favorite speed workouts they would like to post? Success stories on how you improved your run speed? I know there isn't an easy answer but just would like to know it is possible to get faster...


2009-07-20 11:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
I follow the guidelines "workouts" in the book  "Run Less, Run Faster". 
I run 3 days a week on their plans and my speed has increased significantly.

Michael
2009-07-20 11:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
you are going to hit a point, (for most people), where you do simply need to run more, not run harder.

until you are running a decent amount, running more will keep getting you faster longer than speedwork will, without the extra injury risks that speed work bring with them.

for most of us, running faster means lowering a sustainable pace, not upping our max speed we can hit. this is best accomplished by A) upping total weekly volume B) once you have the volume to be able to do this, slowly start lengthening out one run per week and C) adding in a tempo run per week, where you warm up, run at tempo pace for a certain amount of time, cool down. this gets you working jjust over race pace, so you get many of the benefits of running faster without the pounding and muscle breakdown that occours at race speeds.

2009-07-20 11:43 AM
in reply to: #2296115

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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
I used to do track workouts....havent dont them all summer.

I've been getting faster all summer doing what newbz is saying.

one 30 tempo run/week, everything else basically zone 2
2009-07-20 11:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
I will answer your first question and offer up my favorite speed workouts.

-Strides before or after a short easy jog (as I get older, I feel like these are the most beneficial to me)
-1 mile repeats
-1/4 mile repeats
-hill repeats (at 235 lbs. these are far from my favorite.  But running hills is my 'limiter' so I make sure to throw these in the mix)
-Negative split tempo run
-AT intervals ( warm up, run at AT for 1:30, jog until HR gets to recovery zone, repeat............,     cool down)

Are these the best ones?  Are these for you?  I don't know.  There are just the ones I enjoy doing.  If I did all my work running long and in zone 2 , I would get slower because I would be bored to death and quit running all together.

Edited by ray6foot7 2009-07-20 11:56 AM
2009-07-20 12:59 PM
in reply to: #2296169


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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
I'm new to this triathlon training myself, but am a HS track coach, USATF Level One certified. I would suggest running 3 days per week, 2 days of moderate pace for 30-40 minutes. On the 3rd day do an interval training day. A typical workout I do with my guys is 4 x 400m runs in the 60-75 sec. range with a 3:1 rest. I use the times for each 400m based on what my guys are running and what our goal is for them individually. After those we do 4 x 300m sprints with the same 3:1 rest interval. This should be at 45-60 sec. Then we finish with an 800m timed @ a cool down pace. The next week we add 1 x 400m and 1 x  300m to the total workout. It's a tough speed workout if done with the proper pace and rest interval. I did my last workout on a pace of a timed mile goal of 6:00. so my 400m were each supposed to be in the 1:30 range with 4:30 rest. I'm a beginner so that is where I'm starting. My better distance guys will run repeat 400m @ 60-70 sec, for a total of 8, then 4-6 300m. Just an idea.

"Today is a great day to get better" ME
USATF Level 1 Coach
CSCS


2009-07-20 1:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
Unless you run lots more than your log indicates, you have only been getting in 2 days at most and sometimes not any running at all. You may get by on less, but realistically to have a decent run in a HIM you should be running a minimum of 25-30 MPW consistently for several months. It appears you are nowhere near close to that.

There is no magic speed workout when you're barely running at all. Take the advice of Newbz.
2009-07-20 1:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed

steelers71 - 2009-07-20 12:59 PM I'm new to this triathlon training myself, but am a HS track coach, USATF Level One certified. I would suggest running 3 days per week, 2 days of moderate pace for 30-40 minutes. On the 3rd day do an interval training day. A typical workout I do with my guys is 4 x 400m runs in the 60-75 sec. range with a 3:1 rest. I use the times for each 400m based on what my guys are running and what our goal is for them individually. After those we do 4 x 300m sprints with the same 3:1 rest interval. This should be at 45-60 sec. Then we finish with an 800m timed @ a cool down pace. The next week we add 1 x 400m and 1 x  300m to the total workout. It's a tough speed workout if done with the proper pace and rest interval. I did my last workout on a pace of a timed mile goal of 6:00. so my 400m were each supposed to be in the 1:30 range with 4:30 rest. I'm a beginner so that is where I'm starting. My better distance guys will run repeat 400m @ 60-70 sec, for a total of 8, then 4-6 300m. Just an idea.

"Today is a great day to get better" ME
USATF Level 1 Coach
CSCS


Do you coach HS athletes to run half marathons? I'm just an uneducated bozo but it sems to me that those intervals are way to short to provide much benefit to someone training for a HIM.

My suggestions, in the order you should take them:

1. Run more. Four days a week is good, five days per week is better. Six if you can swing it. 30+ MPW. Most at Z2 pace.
2. Hills. Either within your regular runs, or if you want to get more structured, hill repeats.
3. Tempo runs at ~15K pace. Start with, say, 20 minutes, work your way up to 6, 7 miles. Once a week.
4. Strides. 100 meter "sprints"+
 at 85%-90% effort with full recoveriy in between. Start with 5 or 6, go up to 10. Also once a week or so.
5. Intervals: 600m-1200m at 5K pace.

 



Edited by the bear 2009-07-20 2:00 PM
2009-07-20 1:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
There is an easy answer:  run more.

But why don't you think you went too hard on the bike and/or swim?  What's your 'normal' running pace and what did you run in the race?  If your run split was truly "terrible", I think that pacing and/or overall fitness level is very likely part of the problem.
2009-07-20 1:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
What's a tempo pace?
2009-07-20 1:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
newbz got it right.

Since I've been doing tri's, I switched from 7 days a week running to (usually) three:  One moderate effort run of typically at least five miles or so, one long weekend run (could be anywhere from 8 to 20 miles depending on what I'm training for at any given time) and one faster, shorter, run.  (During marathon training periods, I often add a fourth weekly run.)  That faster run might be a 24-40 minute tempo run--most weeks that's what it is--or sometimes an interval session.  I generally do a true interval workout (most often half mile repeats) only every three-to-five weeks.  On that routine, my 5K PR has come down from 20:57 to 19:49 and my marathon from 4:56 to 3:42 over the last couple years.

What's unsaid there is that before starting to do focused workouts like I'm describing, I'd built up a base of conditioning by running quite a lot of what some people might want to say was "junk miles":  For two years, I was running seven days and anywhere from 24 to 42 miles a week.  No really long runs (nothing longer than 10 miles) and not much speed work (just an occasional time trial to measure progress).  And this was after the initial phase of mixing run and walk after I first got off the couch.  I think a lot of triathletes who are new to running often fail at successfully transition out of the run/walk phase and my suspicion is that this is because they have been concentrating on building up the distance they can cover in this way and don't understand that they will almost certainly need to pull back on the volume initially in transitioning to running only.  But for newbie runners, this initial build in volume is necessary and you have to be patient with it.  I found that my speed increased during that time, even without much in the way of speed workouts.


2009-07-20 2:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
just as a personal story, without ANY speedwork outside of a 1 or so tempo run per week, over the past 4 years my 5k time has dropped from 22:30 (in triathlon) to 18:03 (in triathlon) just off of biking more and consistently running and a few tempo runs.

i am not running anywhere near enough to see the real benifits to track type intervals and frankly i dont think the injury risk is worth it.
2009-07-23 10:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
newbz - 2009-07-20 2:12 PM just as a personal story, without ANY speedwork outside of a 1 or so tempo run per week, over the past 4 years my 5k time has dropped from 22:30 (in triathlon) to 18:03 (in triathlon) just off of biking more and consistently running and a few tempo runs. i am not running anywhere near enough to see the real benifits to track type intervals and frankly i dont think the injury risk is worth it.


I did my first tri this summer, and after the bike, the run is a place where I could use some improvement...I was trying to get an idea of how much improvement I should expect.  I certainly don't expect to cut times in half or anything, but I wonder if, as your post suggests, that a minute or two per year is what I should expect?  And as some of the previous posts suggests...I would love to hit even your time 4 years ago.
2009-07-23 10:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
Like newbz I do almost no speed work and have seen a nice drop in time by being consistent.

1st sprint tri two years ago - 8:57/mile
Last sprint tri last weekend - 6:10/mile

Edited by docswim24 2009-07-23 10:49 AM
2009-07-23 3:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
i think if you train right there is no reason you cant see a min or two per year at least for a while (assuming your times are over 20 min for a 5k).

obviously the shorter the distance the less you will drop
2009-07-23 6:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed

Thaitri - 2009-07-20 1:52 PM What's a tempo pace?

tempo pace is considered comfortably hard.  The distance of your race will dictate the distance of your tempo run.

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-267--11909-0,00.html

 

 



Edited by rbean01 2009-07-23 6:09 PM


2009-07-24 10:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
I just read an article on this topic last week. I was surprised by how simple one of the plans was. They referred to it as the 1-1-1 plan. I think it was Galloway or Henderson that discussed it. It is to do 1 mile once a week at a minute faster than than your race pace. I am going to give this a try.

Kevin  
2009-07-24 10:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
chevy57 - 2009-07-24 10:10 AM I just read an article on this topic last week. I was surprised by how simple one of the plans was. They referred to it as the 1-1-1 plan. I think it was Galloway or Henderson that discussed it. It is to do 1 mile once a week at a minute faster than than your race pace. I am going to give this a try.

Kevin  


What race pace? I might have races scheduled with ten different run distances, each with a different appropriate pace.
2009-07-24 11:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Run Speed
chevy57 - 2009-07-24 12:10 PM

I just read an article on this topic last week. I was surprised by how simple one of the plans was. They referred to it as the 1-1-1 plan. I think it was Galloway or Henderson that discussed it. It is to do 1 mile once a week at a minute faster than than your race pace. I am going to give this a try.


Do you have a link to the article?

In general, I would avoid that plan like the plague as it doesn't consider race distance, pace (dropping one minute/mile for a 10:00/mile runner is very different when compared to a 5:00/mile runner), training volume, etc.

If you are looking to add complexity to your run workouts, invest in a quality resource (like Daniels' Running Formula) and apply the concepts to your training.

Shane
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