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2009-08-25 10:58 PM

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Subject: Improving Run Performance
I am looking for advice on which specific workout I should use to help improve my running performance. I am currently training for my first half marathon in November on my way to my first HIM in March. My weakness is definately my running so I am spending the fall focusing on my running. My run times really suck......9:20 5k race pace!! It drops way back to 10-10:30 for a 10k.My current training program is pretty standard. Run three times a week which consists of one long run and one temp run and a "recovery" run. I know many of you will say add more run workouts but I've battled knee and foot problems for years and causing a flare would really me off. I also do strength training 2x/wk along with biking once and swimming 2x/wk to keep fitness but thats beside the point. I would like to add either hill repeats or some speed work to my other run day. Question is, which one would benefit me the most if my goal is to improve my time?


2009-08-26 5:28 AM
in reply to: #2370863

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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
If you haven't checked out the Furman running program (FIRST) it's been highly recommended to me.  In fact I've only been doing it for two weeks but really like it.  The idea is to run faster by running less using specific paces based on your 5K race time.

There's a book, of course, "Run Less, Run Faster" published by Runners World but written by the Furman team.  You would also get a lot out of their free website http://www.furman.edu/first/fmtp.htm />
Check it out and I hope it helps you as it is helping me and has helped my friends run some amazing times. 
2009-08-26 5:55 AM
in reply to: #2370863

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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
I'm not a coach, but three times a week should be plenty to improve your speed for over the 5K-10K distances.  However, if you are going to only run three times a week, all three need to be quality workouts.  The long and tempo runs are great, but I would switch out your easy run for hill repeats for about a month and then speedwork on the track (i.e. 400 meter repeats) - IF your foot and knee can handle it.

If you can't do speedwork because of your injury history, my second suggestion would be to do either a second tempo run or fartleks.

In short, you need speedwork to gain speed my friend.
2009-08-26 6:53 AM
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2009-08-26 7:40 AM
in reply to: #2370863

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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
Not to get too personal but looking at your avitar, you look to be a pretty muscular guy.  I don't know how much you weigh, but dropping weight may be the easiest way to gain speed in addition to the 3 quality workouts suggested.  I'd limit the weight training to core work.  That's assuming that getting faster is your main goal.  I'm not sure I want my physique to resemble a Kenyan runner either, but there is no doubt, carrying around extra weight, muscle or fat, slows you down on the run, and bike too.  The extra weight is also harder on all the joints.  Sure hope I didn't offend you or anyone else.
2009-08-26 7:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
bdally - 2009-08-26 6:28 AM If you haven't checked out the Furman running program (FIRST) it's been highly recommended to me.  In fact I've only been doing it for two weeks but really like it.  The idea is to run faster by running less using specific paces based on your 5K race time. 


It is my opinion that FIRST focuses far too much on speed work.  And for someone who is battling injury issues, the program may be a recipe for disaster.

Yes, doing up-tempo work is important over the long haul to be a more efficient and faster runner.  But it is NOT the way to build up endurance and overall running abilities.

To the OP.  With 3 runs a week on your plan you are looking to run a half fairly soon?  I personally would never prescribe less than 4 runs a week and ideally 5 - 6 for someone training for a longer distance running event.  As you have already mentioned that you cannot fit in that much more from a running perspective I would advise you to at least squeeze in one more run.  One long, one tempo, one general aerobic, one recovery.

Just my thoughts.  To me you would NOT see a long term benefit to doing any sort of faster speed work right now and could possibly incur a higher risk of injury.


2009-08-26 8:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
x2 on dscottmd's comments. 
2009-08-26 8:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
Adding more intensity to your running is likely to cause you more knee & foot problems than just adding more running.  My answer is neither.
2009-08-26 8:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
no matter how you cut it, the only way to run faster is to... run faster.

If you train at a 8 min mile pace for a half marathon, guess how fast you will run a half marathon. 

Speed comes from running faster.  Interval work is key for this.  Do a good warm up and then hit the track.  400's, 800s, 1200's and 1600's are the key (In my opinion). 

Also get rid of any "junk miles" that you are running.  Turn your recovery run into a workout. 
2009-08-26 8:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
gshtrisport - 2009-08-26 8:26 AM no matter how you cut it, the only way to run faster is to... run faster.

If you train at a 8 min mile pace for a half marathon, guess how fast you will run a half marathon. 

Speed comes from running faster.  Interval work is key for this.  Do a good warm up and then hit the track.  400's, 800s, 1200's and 1600's are the key (In my opinion). 

Also get rid of any "junk miles" that you are running.  Turn your recovery run into a workout. 


i posted a thread about my running perforamnce, but in the past 12 months i went from a 8:30 mile to 7 min mile just running slow, no intervals, no tempo just z2 running, slow and steady and increasing the distance.
2009-08-26 8:38 AM
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2009-08-26 8:40 AM
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2009-08-26 8:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
Daremo - 2009-08-26 8:48 AM
bdally - 2009-08-26 6:28 AM If you haven't checked out the Furman running program (FIRST) it's been highly recommended to me.  In fact I've only been doing it for two weeks but really like it.  The idea is to run faster by running less using specific paces based on your 5K race time. 


It is my opinion that FIRST focuses far too much on speed work.  And for someone who is battling injury issues, the program may be a recipe for disaster.

Yes, doing up-tempo work is important over the long haul to be a more efficient and faster runner.  But it is NOT the way to build up endurance and overall running abilities.

To the OP.  With 3 runs a week on your plan you are looking to run a half fairly soon?  I personally would never prescribe less than 4 runs a week and ideally 5 - 6 for someone training for a longer distance running event.  As you have already mentioned that you cannot fit in that much more from a running perspective I would advise you to at least squeeze in one more run.  One long, one tempo, one general aerobic, one recovery.

Just my thoughts.  To me you would NOT see a long term benefit to doing any sort of faster speed work right now and could possibly incur a higher risk of injury.


x2.  I agree with Rick.  Add a 4th or 5th day of running, and don't worry too much about speed work. 
2009-08-26 8:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
gshtrisport - 2009-08-26 9:26 AM no matter how you cut it, the only way to run faster is to... run faster.

If you train at a 8 min mile pace for a half marathon, guess how fast you will run a half marathon. 

Speed comes from running faster.  Interval work is key for this.  Do a good warm up and then hit the track.  400's, 800s, 1200's and 1600's are the key (In my opinion). 

Also get rid of any "junk miles" that you are running.  Turn your recovery run into a workout. 


Tell that to Mark Allen.

Not that I agree with the whole Maffetone/Allen approach.  But to say that you will not be able to run faster by running more and slower is just bunk.  It is far from reality.  There are numerous instances of people running nothing more than tempo and slower paces that go out and rip up 5 and 10k distance stuff ........ all with NEVER having gone their 5/10k paces.

Faster pace does NOT come from running faster.  Faster pace comes from running consistently and varying your distances and paces that you run them.

And there are no such things as junk miles.  Every mile you run or ride has a specific physiological benefit.  Some miles may not be the best use of your time, true.  But every single one is a building block in your overall fitness.
2009-08-26 8:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
Daremo - 2009-08-26 8:47 AM
gshtrisport - 2009-08-26 9:26 AM no matter how you cut it, the only way to run faster is to... run faster.

If you train at a 8 min mile pace for a half marathon, guess how fast you will run a half marathon. 

Speed comes from running faster.  Interval work is key for this.  Do a good warm up and then hit the track.  400's, 800s, 1200's and 1600's are the key (In my opinion). 

Also get rid of any "junk miles" that you are running.  Turn your recovery run into a workout. 


Tell that to Mark Allen.

Not that I agree with the whole Maffetone/Allen approach.  But to say that you will not be able to run faster by running more and slower is just bunk.  It is far from reality.  There are numerous instances of people running nothing more than tempo and slower paces that go out and rip up 5 and 10k distance stuff ........ all with NEVER having gone their 5/10k paces.

Faster pace does NOT come from running faster.  Faster pace comes from running consistently and varying your distances and paces that you run them.

And there are no such things as junk miles.  Every mile you run or ride has a specific physiological benefit.  Some miles may not be the best use of your time, true.  But every single one is a building block in your overall fitness.


Exactly. I saw this with hundreds of soldiers over 10 years in the military. No typical training run was ever over a moderate pace. But come time for the physical fitness test, they were much faster. And speed was always directly proportional volume. When we weren't deployed and we ran more, times were faster.
2009-08-26 9:09 AM
in reply to: #2370863

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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
I am by no means an expert, and very much a beginner, but i'm planning on running a 1/2 marathon in late November.  I plan on doing the novice training program from Hal Higdon's website, halhigdon.com.  He has some varied plans for novice, intermediate, and advanced for all distances.  Some of his plans allow for Cross training as part of the building process.  The intermediate plans start working in the pace/tempo work.  Might be worth a look.  I don't know what everyone thinks about the website, but seems pretty informational to me.

I also plan on reading as much as i can on training, etc. to cater to my specific needs for training, etc.  I would imagine, everyones plan is different.


2009-08-26 9:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
gshtrisport - 2009-08-26 7:26 AM no matter how you cut it, the only way to run faster is to... run faster.

If you train at a 8 min mile pace for a half marathon, guess how fast you will run a half marathon. 

Speed comes from running faster.  Interval work is key for this.  Do a good warm up and then hit the track.  400's, 800s, 1200's and 1600's are the key (In my opinion). 

Also get rid of any "junk miles" that you are running.  Turn your recovery run into a workout. 


In this sport there really isn't an "only" way to do almost anything. The OP hasn't provided enough information to let people know what is currently being done. Long run, tempo, and recovery are vague and can mean different things. For some people a long run could be 4-5 miles, while others don't consider it a long run unless it's 10-12 or more. Since it isn't known what this person is doing in terms of mileage and intensity, it's just shooting in the dark to give advice.

Here's my shot in the dark. Assuming the OP is only running 10-15 miles/week at most it might be more beneficial to run 6 days/week and 3 miles/day. All done at an easy pace. This would help build strength/endurance in the muscles, tendons, and joints. It would also instantly increase weekly mileage without being overly stressful. Building off a base of doing this for a month, one of the runs can be gradually lengthened, building up to about 12-13 miles over a couple months. No real need for speed workouts as they increase the risk of injury. Consistent weekly mileage in the 25-30 range over a longer period of time will do wonders for improving speed. Getting fast as a runner is not typically a short term deal - it can take years of consistent effort.

FWIW, I trained for a HM last year doing the bulk of my runs in the 9:00-9:30 range and ran about 7:30 in the race despite never training at that pace.
2009-08-26 12:01 PM
in reply to: #2370863

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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
This thread is from another site, but seemed timely in relation to your question.  But be forewarned that it's giving you the answer you don't want to hear.
2009-08-26 12:06 PM
in reply to: #2371006

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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
wgraves7582 - 2009-08-26 7:53 AM

PinkPrincess - 2009-08-26 6:55 AM I'm not a coach, but three times a week should be plenty to improve your speed for over the 5K-10K distances.  However, if you are going to only run three times a week, all three need to be quality workouts.  The long and tempo runs are great, but I would switch out your easy run for hill repeats for about a month and then speedwork on the track (i.e. 400 meter repeats) - IF your foot and knee can handle it.

If you can't do speedwork because of your injury history, my second suggestion would be to do either a second tempo run or fartleks.

In short, you need speedwork to gain speed my friend.

I would add the 4th day of running and keep the easy myself.  If you get injured it is all over anyways.

I believe the body needs an easy day to help in the recovery process.  And if you remove that you are removing a healthy (hopefully to keep the injuries away) way to get some mileage in.



I should have clarified - I meant that the OP wanted to up his speed with only three runs a week (understandable given his injury history), he should do the third run as a hard run and use crosstraining on the other days as easy days.  A fourth day of doing easy base work WOULD be ideal though, I agree.
2009-08-26 12:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
JohnnyKay - 2009-08-26 12:01 PM This thread is from another site, but seemed timely in relation to your question.  But be forewarned that it's giving you the answer you don't want to hear.


What a coincidence ... I was just reading through that threadLaughing
2009-08-26 12:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
PinkPrincess - 2009-08-26 1:06 PM
I should have clarified - I meant that the OP wanted to up his speed with only three runs a week (understandable given his injury history), he should do the third run as a hard run and use crosstraining on the other days as easy days.  A fourth day of doing easy base work WOULD be ideal though, I agree.


The problem is that plan is generally MORE likely to result in injury than a fourth easy day.  People are resistant to this, but for most people frequency is a much better way to build durability (which allows you to then train more/harder). 

I'm sure there are exceptions, but most of us aren't exceptional. 


2009-08-26 12:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
donzi8 - 2009-08-25 10:58 PM I am looking for advice on which specific workout I should use to help improve my running performance. I am currently training for my first half marathon in November on my way to my first HIM in March. My weakness is definately my running so I am spending the fall focusing on my running. My run times really suck......9:20 5k race pace!! It drops way back to 10-10:30 for a 10k.My current training program is pretty standard. Run three times a week which consists of one long run and one temp run and a "recovery" run. I know many of you will say add more run workouts but I've battled knee and foot problems for years and causing a flare would really me off. I also do strength training 2x/wk along with biking once and swimming 2x/wk to keep fitness but thats beside the point. I would like to add either hill repeats or some speed work to my other run day. Question is, which one would benefit me the most if my goal is to improve my time?


You look like a big guy (Just looking at your picture) Maybe and I mean Maybe because I don't know but you might want to loose a few pounds for the run.
2009-08-26 12:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance

JohnnyKay - 2009-08-26 12:15 PM
PinkPrincess - 2009-08-26 1:06 PM
I should have clarified - I meant that the OP wanted to up his speed with only three runs a week (understandable given his injury history), he should do the third run as a hard run and use crosstraining on the other days as easy days.  A fourth day of doing easy base work WOULD be ideal though, I agree.


The problem is that plan is generally MORE likely to result in injury than a fourth easy day.  People are resistant to this, but for most people frequency is a much better way to build durability (which allows you to then train more/harder). 

I'm sure there are exceptions, but most of us aren't exceptional. 
x100.  Too many people fall into the 'run fast to run faster' trap without enough base.  Result? Injury, which means back to square one.  For some, the cycle keeps repeating.  If I were the OP I would nix the speedwork and substitue with a moderate distance easier run.  Repeat and repeat and repeat.  When he can, add in another day or two gradually.  Work with that a while, then down the road, when staying injury free, maybe throw a speed day in there.

2009-08-26 8:06 PM
in reply to: #2370863

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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
From what I understand, you have to build volume before adding speedwork. Otherwise, you are highly susceptible to injury.  You must allow your body (e.g., ligaments, tendons, bones, muscles) some time to acclimate to the stresses of running.  You'll also increase your aerobic capacity via blood chemistry changes.  Paradoxically, this should in turn increase your speed. 

But, do not rush things.  After a solid base of four to six months running, you can start speedwork.  If you rush the journey, you will end up injured. 

Also, you really ought to consider a power yoga class.  I don't mean the geriatric type where the participants stick out their tongues.  I mean the type where the instructor will kick you butt.  This type of yoga, if you can find it, will strengthen complimentary muscles, thereby reducing your risk of injury.  For instance, I had hip and IT band issues from running and playing tennis.  After doing a power/athletic yoga class once to twice a week, I now feel like I'm half my age, twenty all over again. 

Finally, don't be so hard on yourself.  We each have strengths and limitations.  Your muscle type is likely fast twitch.  You may have been able to run fairly swiftly over very short distances (e.g., 40 yards), but over longer distances struggle relative to folks who are plain runners or triathletes. Perhaps you can make up even more time on the bike, where your power may come into play? 

Good luck
2009-08-26 8:47 PM
in reply to: #2370969

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Subject: RE: Improving Run Performance
PinkPrincess - 2009-08-26 5:55 AM I'm not a coach, but three times a week should be plenty to improve your speed for over the 5K-10K distances.  However, if you are going to only run three times a week, all three need to be quality workouts.  The long and tempo runs are great, but I would switch out your easy run for hill repeats for about a month and then speedwork on the track (i.e. 400 meter repeats) - IF your foot and knee can handle it.

If you can't do speedwork because of your injury history, my second suggestion would be to do either a second tempo run or fartleks.

In short, you need speedwork to gain speed my friend.


x 2,  I am a little ahead of where you are as I have ran 2 halfs and have my first HIM in Oct.  My running got stuck in the 8 min. range I couldn't budge it.  I actually started following my HIM training plan runs with speedwork runs and hill repeats and my running is improving rapidly.  According to my Garmin I can cruise 7 to 7:20 miles right now.  I couldnt just a few months ago and I credit it to speedwork.

Here is a key I have changed.   This doesn't just go for running either.  Make every workout have a plan and goal and try to achieve it instead of just going out and say I am going to get x distance or x amount of time.
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