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pre-pre-Marathon training program
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 2009-08-27 9:04 AM |
Extreme Veteran  475   Watertown, MA |  Subject: pre-pre-Marathon training programHi everyone, So my tri season officially ends this Sunday (Cranberry OLY) and after a few days off I'm looking to jump in to an offseason program with one goal in mind: running Boston in April. I've settled on using Furman's 18-week 'Finish with FIRST' training plan...I like that the program not only allows but actually recommends doing cross training as I'd like to continue riding and swimming through the winter, and I think three specific, key run sessions is enough to get me ready for the 26.2. However, the 18 week program basically has me starting up in mid-December. In the meantime (approx 14 weeks) I'd like to continue cross training with an emphasis on the run, but am looking for something specific that would help increase my running speed. I'm a turtle, my best 5K is 22:08 and while I want to run the marathon I also want to do it with a solid time--I know, I know, first time, enjoy the experience, yada yada...for me, enjoying the experience is pushing myself with a goal in mind for that first time. So: does anyone have any suggestions on a running program--either something on-line or something they personally follow--that might help with speed gains over short-to-moderate (5K-10k) distances? I already have the distance built up to start the marathon program, I'd just like to go into December knowing I'm as fast as I'm going to be this year. Thanks everyone! |
| 2009-08-27 9:15 AM in reply to: #2373644 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program Since you're using the FIRST program to train for the marathon. why not use their 10K program to meet your intermediate goal? Just a overly simplistic take on the FIRST marathon pla: It seems like in the threads here that discuss it, the people who have the most success seem to be the ones who use their cross-training days under the program to... ...wait for it... ...run! As an alternative, I really love Pfitzinger Douglas' marathon plans, as well as those for shorter distances. Basically they incorporate the proper intensities (strides, tempo, intervals) but give you the necessary volume and frequency of running you need to succeed. |
| 2009-08-27 9:25 AM in reply to: #2373644 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program I don't think you should use FIRST if your logs are accurate. IMO, you don't have the running base to tackle that plan and you won't want to try running a marathon on 3x/wk if you want to achieve a "solid time". You should start running more now. Start adding frequency (these runs can be very short) and keep most of your runing easy. It's not speed you need. It's endurance. And running more is the best way for you to build that. |
| 2009-08-27 9:31 AM in reply to: #2373644 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program I would run everyday if possible, just 30' max on most days nice ez pace, maybe once a week stretch it out to an hour run for the next 14 weeks. My personal opinoin is you'll see better results running more frequenty than 3 times a week. If you want to run harder use the VDOT tables to establish your pacing guidelines for various intensity levels. Do run faster than presecribe.... |
| 2009-08-27 9:44 AM in reply to: #2373644 |
Extreme Veteran 475 Watertown, MA | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program Thanks for the advice guys. Regarding my running logs, yeah, I haven't been running much at all the past few months, I've been dealing with a knee injury that has finally disappeared. The next 3+ months will be 3x a week running, potentially more if that's what people recommend to build up to the FIRST plan. I like the idea of using the Furman 10K plan, I think that might do the trick and maybe I'll mix in 1 recovery run of 3-5 miles in between the three prescribed workouts. |
| 2009-08-27 9:54 AM in reply to: #2373644 |
Master 4118 Toronto Bronze member | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program I am currently using and have used FIRST for marathon training. Really like it and I am not one of the ones that subs in running for cross-training days. I probably wouldn't recommend it for you because you're dealing with a sore knee. This program has intense running that won't help you and probably aggravate it more. Even for the shorter distance plans. I don't think a weekly track workout and then aggressive tempo is what you need to be doing. Spend some time base building with easier runs first. But you gotta take care of your injury and build up some base - take a look at Hal Higdon he has a ton of plans that you might be able to find one that builds you up to an intermediate distance ... |
| 2009-08-27 9:59 AM in reply to: #2373765 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program Brownie28 - 2009-08-27 10:44 AM Thanks for the advice guys. Regarding my running logs, yeah, I haven't been running much at all the past few months, I've been dealing with a knee injury that has finally disappeared. The next 3+ months will be 3x a week running, potentially more if that's what people recommend to build up to the FIRST plan. I like the idea of using the Furman 10K plan, I think that might do the trick and maybe I'll mix in 1 recovery run of 3-5 miles in between the three prescribed workouts. I'll say it again, only more strongly now with more info from you. You should seriously reconsider using FIRST. You ARE NOT a good candidate for showing success with their training schedule. You will likely be much better off following a plan like Higdon's. See you in Boston. |
| 2009-08-27 10:00 AM in reply to: #2373644 |
Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program How is it that you're planning on running Boston? Are you buying a charity spot or running as a bandit? Other than that you need to qualify for Boston. Regarding what to do. I'll give the same advice I give to others. Daily running at an easy pace. With your fitness level you could probably start with 2 miles/day and work it up to 4 miles/day by the time you want to start your marathon program. Because the daily runs are short and easy they can be done with no recovery. Essentially this will help build a base. The only difficulty is finding time for the daily run, but you're only looking at about a half hour a day and you can do this on a treadmill if no outside options exist. |
| 2009-08-27 10:12 AM in reply to: #2373644 |
Expert 1186 North Cackalacky | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program If you are willing to upgrade from Bronze to Gold, there are several decent "Winter Maintenance" training plans, including 8 week plans that have all three disciplines but focus on one, i.e. "8 Weeks Run Focus." Might be what you're looking for. |
| 2009-08-27 10:22 AM in reply to: #2373833 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program JohnnyKay - 2009-08-27 8:59 AM Brownie28 - 2009-08-27 10:44 AM Thanks for the advice guys. Regarding my running logs, yeah, I haven't been running much at all the past few months, I've been dealing with a knee injury that has finally disappeared. The next 3+ months will be 3x a week running, potentially more if that's what people recommend to build up to the FIRST plan. I like the idea of using the Furman 10K plan, I think that might do the trick and maybe I'll mix in 1 recovery run of 3-5 miles in between the three prescribed workouts. I'll say it again, only more strongly now with more info from you. You should seriously reconsider using FIRST. You ARE NOT a good candidate for showing success with their training schedule. You will likely be much better off following a plan like Higdon's. See you in Boston. i' ll 2nd the higdon plans. i used one of his advanced marathon ones (knocked the long runs shorter) over the winter as a sort of running kick start and it worked very well, also does a good job of explaining why you are doing what. |
| 2009-08-27 10:42 AM in reply to: #2373833 |
Extreme Veteran 475 Watertown, MA | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program JohnnyKay - 2009-08-27 9:59 AM I'll say it again, only more strongly now with more info from you. You should seriously reconsider using FIRST. You ARE NOT a good candidate for showing success with their training schedule. You will likely be much better off following a plan like Higdon's. See you in Boston. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just curious why you feel this way. Is it just that you feel a 3x a week training program won't allow me to get the proper distance/training in for a marathon given my sparse running history? What if I took one of the crosstraining days and made it a slow 3-5 recovery run--which is what it looks like Higdon's Tuesday and Thursday runs are anyway? The only reason I didn't like the looks of the Higdon plan is that it doesn't allow for much cross training. Even if I convert one of the Furman's cross days into another run I still have two days to cross train, whereas with Higdon he only allows one day of cross training. As I said, I'm not disagreeing with you or anyone else, just wondering the rational behind your opinion. When it comes to run training I'm still very much a beginner so if more knowledgeable people are saying FIRST isn't good for me then I'm all ears. |
| 2009-08-27 10:45 AM in reply to: #2373940 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program Brownie28 - 2009-08-27 10:42 AM The only reason I didn't like the looks of the Higdon plan is that it doesn't allow for much cross training. Even if I convert one of the Furman's cross days into another run I still have two days to cross train, whereas with Higdon he only allows one day of cross training. Just because a plan doesn't specify cross-training doesn't mean that it "doesn't allow" for cross training. |
| 2009-08-27 10:55 AM in reply to: #2373940 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program In addition to bear's point, the reason FIRST does not seem appropriate for you is that it relies on a fair amount of intensity when running. This is necessary if you plan on doing less volume. But that greater intensity is much "higher risk" relative to getting that same training load with added volume. "higher risk" in the sense that it increases your chance for injury. For every successful FIRST plan user, you can find another who wasn't able to stick to the plan because they had "knee trouble" or "ITBS", or ... (this is true in many marathon plans, of course, because the other thing you find is people ramping up their volume from a relatively 'thin' base which is "risky" in its own right) FIRST is better for someone who has a reasonably solid running background/base already and can "get by" with a lower volume/higher intensity strategy. A beginner runner (and especially one that already has a history of injury) will generally be better off by preparing themselves with more 'easy' running rather than less 'hard' running. |
| 2009-08-27 10:55 AM in reply to: #2373940 |
Master 4118 Toronto Bronze member | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program Brownie28 - 2009-08-27 11:42 AM JohnnyKay - 2009-08-27 9:59 AM I'll say it again, only more strongly now with more info from you. You should seriously reconsider using FIRST. You ARE NOT a good candidate for showing success with their training schedule. You will likely be much better off following a plan like Higdon's. See you in Boston. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just curious why you feel this way. Is it just that you feel a 3x a week training program won't allow me to get the proper distance/training in for a marathon given my sparse running history? What if I took one of the crosstraining days and made it a slow 3-5 recovery run--which is what it looks like Higdon's Tuesday and Thursday runs are anyway? The only reason I didn't like the looks of the Higdon plan is that it doesn't allow for much cross training. Even if I convert one of the Furman's cross days into another run I still have two days to cross train, whereas with Higdon he only allows one day of cross training. As I said, I'm not disagreeing with you or anyone else, just wondering the rational behind your opinion. When it comes to run training I'm still very much a beginner so if more knowledgeable people are saying FIRST isn't good for me then I'm all ears. I use FIRST, like it and don't put in any extra running ... see my post above for reasons specific to you why I suggest something else ... don't ignore me! |
| 2009-08-27 11:21 AM in reply to: #2373644 |
Extreme Veteran 475 Watertown, MA | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program Hey, this is why I ask the questions! Thanks for all the input everyone, I think with this feedback I'll do the following: - The next 14 weeks I'll work on two things: 1) two 'key' runs per week, one longish (6-10), the other a tempo run; 2) two other runs of 2-5 miles a week just to get used to more volume than I'm used to. I think that would give me a solid base--both in distance, volume and intensity--to jump in to the Higdon plan. - Assess my current condition--injuries, comfort with the distance, etc--in December to determine if I want to do Novice 1, Novice 2, or potentially even Intermediate 1 from the Higdon plans. |
| 2009-08-27 11:33 AM in reply to: #2374080 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program Brownie28 - 2009-08-27 12:21 PM Hey, this is why I ask the questions! Thanks for all the input everyone, I think with this feedback I'll do the following: - The next 14 weeks I'll work on two things: 1) two 'key' runs per week, one longish (6-10), the other a tempo run; 2) two other runs of 2-5 miles a week just to get used to more volume than I'm used to. I think that would give me a solid base--both in distance, volume and intensity--to jump in to the Higdon plan. - Assess my current condition--injuries, comfort with the distance, etc--in December to determine if I want to do Novice 1, Novice 2, or potentially even Intermediate 1 from the Higdon plans. Some more advice. Don't do the tempo run for now. First build frequency. Then build some added duration. THEN add a tempo run Don't even consider the intermediate. Honestly, you don't really even have the running base for the Novice plans (avg. 15-20 miles per week for the past year) but I don't expect that to stop you. FWIW, I ran my first marathon a little over a year after I started running. I was running substantially more than you, but also probably didn't meet that base requirement. Still, figuring I was running more than the start of the plan showed, I didn't see much problem. And the running seemed easy enough, so I added a bit of intensity on my own (some mile repeats at 5-10k paces)--I wanted a "decent" time. I made it through the marathon fine and handily beat my time expectation. I also ended up with an overuse injury in my knee which required nearly a month off from running to take care of completely. It's the only meaningful overuse injury I've developed in my now 5+ years at this. I'm pretty sure I know what caused it.  |
| 2009-08-27 11:34 AM in reply to: #2373644 |
Elite 3235 San Diego | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program You still never said how you plan to get into Boston... |
| 2009-08-27 11:37 AM in reply to: #2374121 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program madcow - 2009-08-27 12:34 PM You still never said how you plan to get into Boston... details... |
| 2009-08-27 12:01 PM in reply to: #2374121 |
Veteran 301 Smithfield, VA | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program madcow - 2009-08-27 12:34 PM You still never said how you plan to get into Boston... Don't you have to qualify to run Boston? Last time I checked, I thought the qualifying time was right around 3 hours (for my age group-40). Perhaps they offer special exemptions for groups like Team in Training, etc. My long term goal is to break 4 hours. So, unless I'm able to maintain my current pace when I'm 70, I don't see myself ever qualifying. My short term goal is to finish my first Mary this November in Richmond, with a smile on my face, not having to walk any part of the course. |
| 2009-08-27 12:09 PM in reply to: #2373644 |
Pro 6520 Bellingham, WA | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program You don't say how old you are but assuming you are mid-40's you are looking at a 3:30 qualifying time, faster if you are younger. That's about an 8:00/mile pace. Pretty tough to get there this Fall or Winter in looking at your logs and short term goals. Though its hard to say without more information. I too would like to qualify for Boston but will not be ready this year. As I transition from tri season to winter running season, my interim goal is to run a half marathon at qualifying pace this Fall and look to next year to qualify, than run Boston in 2011. Boston is a great goal. Hope you stay healthy and get there. |
| 2009-08-27 12:13 PM in reply to: #2374222 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program mandsberry - 2009-08-27 1:01 PM Don't you have to qualify to run Boston? Last time I checked, I thought the qualifying time was right around 3 hours (for my age group-40). Back in the day that was the case. The young bucks had to run a 2:50-ish to get in. Now it is much "easier" - of course that is a relative term: http://www.bostonmarathon.org/BostonMarathon/Qualifying.asp And yes, there are charity and corporate slots available as well as stuff through the BAA. |
| 2009-08-27 12:39 PM in reply to: #2373644 |
Extreme Veteran 475 Watertown, MA | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program I'm 29, and I'm not even thinking of qualifying (for my age group it'd be 3:10), I'm going the charity route and will start to think about qualifying for 2011 if I find that I don't hate marathons . 2010 will be a dry run, if you will: run the course, set a time goal and see how I do, and learn from the experience. Right now--though I'm sure it will change as I start training--my time goal is in the 3:30 area, which I think is very doable with proper training. I have almost 8 full months and this will be my one goal for the offseason...my sister, who hadn't run in her life, started training in early-December and finished in 4:10...I think with at least a little base, plus three months of training before I start the Higdon plan, I should be fine with the miles. Thanks again everyone! |
| 2009-08-27 1:06 PM in reply to: #2373644 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program I was a 3:12 qualifier for the race. In the two years I've run it I've gone 3:4X and 3:5X. Respect the distance or it will hand you your azz on a big fat slab of pavement. |
| 2009-08-27 1:28 PM in reply to: #2373987 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program juniperjen - 2009-08-27 8:55 AM Brownie28 - 2009-08-27 11:42 AM JohnnyKay - 2009-08-27 9:59 AM I'll say it again, only more strongly now with more info from you. You should seriously reconsider using FIRST. You ARE NOT a good candidate for showing success with their training schedule. You will likely be much better off following a plan like Higdon's. See you in Boston. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just curious why you feel this way. Is it just that you feel a 3x a week training program won't allow me to get the proper distance/training in for a marathon given my sparse running history? What if I took one of the crosstraining days and made it a slow 3-5 recovery run--which is what it looks like Higdon's Tuesday and Thursday runs are anyway? The only reason I didn't like the looks of the Higdon plan is that it doesn't allow for much cross training. Even if I convert one of the Furman's cross days into another run I still have two days to cross train, whereas with Higdon he only allows one day of cross training. As I said, I'm not disagreeing with you or anyone else, just wondering the rational behind your opinion. When it comes to run training I'm still very much a beginner so if more knowledgeable people are saying FIRST isn't good for me then I'm all ears. I use FIRST, like it and don't put in any extra running ... see my post above for reasons specific to you why I suggest something else ... don't ignore me! Just wanted to second this. I've gotten within shouting distance of a BQ time (I'm 49 and realistically expect to BQ when I get the extra 5 min. leeway next year) on 3 runs a week (GA, tempo or interval, and LSD) mixed with swim and bike...in fact I did that in the middle of IM training this year. But the key really is having a rock-solid base before transitioning to that kind of schedule...as seems to be the theme in this thread. However, it absolutely can be done on three (or four) runs a week...I've gone from 4:56 on seven days a week, low intensity, running to 3:55, then 3:42 on that reduced running schedule. On the first one (the 3:55), though, I did get a bout of runner's knee late in training...it is not easy to support a proper build to long runs up around 18 or 20 miles when you're only doing 2 or 3 other runs a week...at least that was my experience. This year, however, things went very smoothly on that schedule with no injuries. So I guess I'm saying look at it carefully, but what you're considering is definitely doable (and is the approach I take in general), but does have some potential for injury. |
| 2009-08-27 1:28 PM in reply to: #2374427 |
Extreme Veteran 475 Watertown, MA | Subject: RE: pre-pre-Marathon training program Daremo - 2009-08-27 1:06 PM I was a 3:12 qualifier for the race. In the two years I've run it I've gone 3:4X and 3:5X. Respect the distance or it will hand you your azz on a big fat slab of pavement. Absolutely...I respect the distance, there's a reason I'm reading books about run training and marathon training and asking these questions on here: I know it's a battle just to finish, let alone post a sub-4 hr time in the first attempt. I realize that for someone with very little run background to be saying he'd like to run a 3:30 at Boston might sound ambitious, almost arrogant given my first 10K race will be this weekend during my OLY. However, as I said I'm just throwing it out there as a long term goal, something that will probably be adjusted as I get closer to race day (which, again, is 8 months off--hell, I haven't even started day one of my training yet). I think it's important to have goals in the back of your mind, something that you're aiming for...will that goal be adjusted--3:40, 3:50, under 4? It's quite possible, I just like to have something that I'm gunning for and I picked 3:30 for no other reason than that's what my VDOT translates to from my 5K time (22:08), nothing more, nothing less. |
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