General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles Rss Feed  
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2009-10-26 2:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
I agree with Breckview that you are exceeding your fitness level and you have to wait for it to develop. In my experience, I don't get cramps from lack of electrolytes, but from exceeding my limitations.

By the way, I am 50 and am impressed with the heart rates you maintain. My 12-mile run avg. heart rate is in the low 130s and my my max heart rate is about 160 - 165.


2009-10-26 2:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
trinewby - 2009-10-25 8:24 PM

Gritty - 2009-10-25 10:45 PM
Premature muscle fatigue? I saww in your log you suspect it that maybe you're running too fast for the distance.


Gritty,
Running too fast for these long runs could be the problem. I do have a hard time slowing down from a 9:30 pace 'cause there isn't much room to slow down from there unless I just go ahead and walk! I don't stretch at all before I run, but I do a moderate amount afterward. I used to stretch before, but I quite after reading a number of articles about that.

Greg


I'm going to vote for pace being the main factor here. I don't speak from experience, fortunately, but it does seem like people who have problems doing long runs in training often are going too fast. You say 9:30 feels uncomfortably slow, but I'd really, really advise you to slow down anyway -- like, 10 min/mile at least. I *can* say from experience that it feels weird running slow at first, but it gets easier. I used to do all of my training runs at about 9 min/mile, but when I started training for my first marathon last year I took to heart all of the advice to run about a full minute slower than what you hope to run in a marthon. Now most of my regular runs -- and *all* of my long runs -- are done at about a 10 min/mile pace, but I race much faster than that.
2009-10-26 6:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
Very possibly could be the pace issue, or calcium, but I also suspect that your body needs some "real" protein, salt, etc, not just liquid "replacements". Pushing your body that far on basically an empty stomach is not a good combination IMO.
2009-10-26 6:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
Are you truly cramping, or are your muscle just completely fatigued and failing?  I would also consider whether you have sufficient calories a couple of hours before your long runs to ensure that your glycogen levels are sustained throughout your workouts.  I treat my long runs almost like a race.

Then again, I am slow.  Ask someone faster.
2009-10-26 7:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles

Might consider walking a little sooner.  Instead of waiting for 10 miles walk a little every two miles.  I know everyone's HR is different and I am an old, fat guy,  but your HR seems high for your long easy runs.  Just my .01  worth.

2009-10-26 7:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles

You need to slow down, plain and simple.



2009-10-26 7:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
I glanced at your September runs and it appears your long runs are close same pace as your other runs each week other than one long run.

It may work better and avoid your cramping issue if your long runs are 1-2' per mile slower than your other runs which lines up with others have said about pacing.

So what have you been doing when you get your cramps in your long runs? Keep running? Stop and stretch?

When I upped my running I would get tight calves that could cramp but I could tell they were coming so I would try to solve problem not continue doing teh same. Often when having tight calves I would start my run, run 10-15', stop and stretch...doing some yoga stretches like downward dog with two feet and then one to stretch calves.
2009-10-26 7:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
KathyG - 2009-10-26 7:04 AM I glanced at your September runs and it appears your long runs are close same pace as your other runs each week other than one long run.

It may work better and avoid your cramping issue if your long runs are 1-2' per mile slower than your other runs which lines up with others have said about pacing.



Wouldn't that depend on how fast/hard he's running his other runs? I run my long runs the same pace as my everyday runs (about a minute slower than marathon pace) unless those runs are a more specific purpose (tempo, for example). It's long, steady distnace, NOT long slow distance. I couldn't imagine running 1-2' slower.

Maybe you're running your "other runs each week" too fast?Cool
2009-10-26 8:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
greyg8r - 2009-10-26 3:04 AM

I agree with Breckview that you are exceeding your fitness level and you have to wait for it to develop. In my experience, I don't get cramps from lack of electrolytes, but from exceeding my limitations.

By the way, I am 50 and am impressed with the heart rates you maintain. My 12-mile run avg. heart rate is in the low 130s and my my max heart rate is about 160 - 165.


I also agree that it's probably a fitness issue (ramping up mileage too quickly). If that's the case, maybe you should look for a different plan that fits your current status better. Ramping up running too quickly is a bad idea, especially for us who are a little older. Pre-packaged plans are definitely not "one size fits all".

I will, however, throw out one other thing to consider.... Are you on any medications at all? I have a friend who was having issues with cramping while running, despite years of solid running experience. It turned out that a medication he was taking contributed to his cramping issues....
2009-10-26 8:11 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
Scout7 - 2009-10-26 8:04 AM

You need to slow down, plain and simple.



Bingo.

And strength training to prevent muscle fatigue???  Please ...... spare me.  Are you seriously trying to say that doing 20 or 30 calf exercises in a set is going to have ANY ability to reduce muscular fatigue??  If you run for a minute you have just done the same amount of calf exercises.  There is zero link between strength training and increase in endurance or muscular fatigue.  It is only show to increase explosive power (i.e. - sprinting in very short bursts).

Salt has little to nothing to do with cramping.  If there is ANY electrolyte that might come into play it would be calcium.  Even then though, there is no proof of it being needed.
2009-10-26 8:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
sorry if this is been already said but I stop reading after seeing suggestions like strenght training or electrolyte balance as the main source for your cramps. IMO you are just doing more of what your current fitness can handle; just slow down specially on your long runs. As you gte fitter then go longer/faster and see what happens...


2009-10-26 8:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
What about your total caloric intake during the run?  How big are those flasks of Infinit?  Are you eating any gels as well?  If you're unsure, personally I'd start there.

Let's say for example you burn 1000 calories an hour running (just a round number, YMMV).  I think the rule-of-thumb is you can typically only absorb up to 25% of calories burned, so you should probably be taking in between 150 and 250 calories an hour.  For a 3 hour run, that's probably between 500-750 calories you need to take in for the entire run.  Just from your explanation, two flasks of Infinit (6 oz maybe??) would equate to 150 calories?  I don't know, as it probably changes with the different formulas, but it sound like you're low on calories, not electrolytes.  Just my observation.

This is just from my experience, but I couldn't agree more with Daremo above, calf raises are just about worthless for endurance running.

2009-10-26 9:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles

DP



Edited by the bear 2009-10-26 9:24 AM
2009-10-26 9:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
strostertag - 2009-10-26 8:28 AM What about your total caloric intake during the run?  How big are those flasks of Infinit?  Are you eating any gels as well?  If you're unsure, personally I'd start there.

Let's say for example you burn 1000 calories an hour running (just a round number, YMMV).  I think the rule-of-thumb is you can typically only absorb up to 25% of calories burned, so you should probably be taking in between 150 and 250 calories an hour.  For a 3 hour run, that's probably between 500-750 calories you need to take in for the entire run.  Just from your explanation, two flasks of Infinit (6 oz maybe??) would equate to 150 calories?  I don't know, as it probably changes with the different formulas, but it sound like you're low on calories, not electrolytes.  Just my observation.

This is just from my experience, but I couldn't agree more with Daremo above, calf raises are just about worthless for endurance running.



What you're neglecting is that if he's properly fueled from the start he has enough fuel for a couple of hours of activity without taking any additional calories. One does not start with an empty tank and have to operate just witht he calories he can ingest.

Edited by the bear 2009-10-26 9:24 AM
2009-10-26 9:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
To echo a few other responses (and to tell you to ignore some too), you are simply outrunning your fitness level.  Too fast and too many miles off too little base.  Other things may be small contributors to your cramping, but your main issue is almost certainly fitness related.
2009-10-26 2:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles

I'm not nearly as expert as some of the other posters, but I'm also training for a Dec 12 marathon.  This will be my third try at the marathon distance.  In each of the other cases, I injured myself before I could get to the start line. 

This year, I'm going slowly.  Molasses speed compared to my usual 5K pace (7:xx mins/mile).  I'm not saying that I won't get injured this year, but it's gone OK so far.  FWIW, in 2007, I trained in the 8-9 min/mile range.  2008 - 10 mins per mile.  2009 - don't even look at my Garmin pace (11-ish mins per mile).

So, my suggestion is to slow down your long runs to easy pace.  Ridiculously easy pace.  And see what happens.  If you can go longer, that is your new long run pace.  The goal for this marathon is to finish.  Next time you can race.



2009-10-26 3:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
I'd say that you simply have to ramp up your running distances a bit slower.  My personal experience (as a 47 yo relatively new to running) is that my body can't ramp up the distance or intensity nearly as quickly as my brain thinks it can. 

Following a training plan can be good, but be prepared to scale things down a bit if calves, knees, hips, etc. aren't cooperating.  I've had to reduce my half-marathon run training the last four weeks since I still can't figure out when to start holding back... 

Brian
2009-10-26 3:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
famelec - 2009-10-27 10:39 AM I'd say that you simply have to ramp up your running distances a bit slower.  My personal experience (as a 47 yo relatively new to running) is that my body can't ramp up the distance or intensity nearly as quickly as my brain thinks it can. 

Following a training plan can be good, but be prepared to scale things down a bit if calves, knees, hips, etc. aren't cooperating.  I've had to reduce my half-marathon run training the last four weeks since I still can't figure out when to start holding back... 

Brian


totally agree...also same age as you.
training for my first marathon has brought up this situation and dealing with it right now.

a few months ago, I couldn't think of running anything past a HM (prior to a year ago I couldn't see how to run past 8miles), now just finished a 30k, although it was tough.

each threshold is a struggle, and it takes some time for your body to adjust to the distance.

i am hoping mine will adjust in time for the marathon !

Edited by metafizx 2009-10-26 3:48 PM
2009-10-26 4:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles

I agree with a number of the earlier posts:  calf raises probably won't help at all, you might be overthinking and placing too much importance on the nutrition aspect, and you're probably starting out too fast.

It is very difficult to do psychologically, but try walking a bit before you're tired.  Perhaps walk a minute or 30seconds at the beginning of each mile-that will slow you down and I suspect will keep you running quite a bit longer.

2009-10-26 4:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
I would suggest seeing how frequent the aid stations are in your Marathon and adding walk breaks into your long runs to correlate with those aid stations. For example, if the Marathon course has aid stations every 1.5 miles then I would train for a walk break every 1.5 miles on your long run. I would walk for 60 seconds at a moderate to moderately slow pace, simulating what you will do to fuel and take on water. This will give your calves a short break from the action and you'll be surprised how much less fatigue you'll encounter. Try it out on you next long run and I bet you're able to go considerably farther without the cramping issue. You're probably aware of Jeff Galloway's walk/run method and this would be a variation of that by walking thru the aid stations.
2009-10-26 8:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
OK, wow... ton of great advice here.  As I review all of the recommendations, it seems the most common theme is a tie between ramping mileage a little too fast and trying to run too fast.  I think my problem could partly be the result of other things as well, but I think I will try responding to these two items first.  I talked to a local tri coach today and he more or less felt the same way.  He suggested running at an easy pace until my HR gets up to 160 and then walk till it recovers to 140.  Start running easy again.  Pretty soon I will be able to do long runs without spending so much time in Z4.

I shared some of my sweat rate info with him too and he thinks I might be getting a little too dehydrated as well and need to consume a few ounces more per hour.

Scout, daremo, Jorge, breckview, & bear, thanks a lot for the advice.  I know you guys have been doing this long enough to know a lot and I appreciate you taking a look at my logs.  Got some good thoughts from others too in the process.

Thanks again.  This site is awesome for things like this.

Greg


2009-10-26 8:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
dscottmd - 2009-10-26 5:22 PM I would suggest seeing how frequent the aid stations are in your Marathon and adding walk breaks into your long runs to correlate with those aid stations. For example, if the Marathon course has aid stations every 1.5 miles then I would train for a walk break every 1.5 miles on your long run. I would walk for 60 seconds at a moderate to moderately slow pace, simulating what you will do to fuel and take on water. This will give your calves a short break from the action and you'll be surprised how much less fatigue you'll encounter. Try it out on you next long run and I bet you're able to go considerably farther without the cramping issue. You're probably aware of Jeff Galloway's walk/run method and this would be a variation of that by walking thru the aid stations.


dscottmd,
Amazingly similar to advice I received from a local tri coach today except using my heart rate as a guide for when to walk.  However, I plan to walk the aid stations just like you suggested.

Thanks,
Greg
2009-10-26 9:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
JorgeM - 2009-10-26 8:27 AMsorry if this is been already said but I stop reading after seeing suggestions like strenght training or electrolyte balance as the main source for your cramps. IMO you are just doing more of what your current fitness can handle; just slow down specially on your long runs. As you gte fitter then go longer/faster and see what happens...
+10000. And Jorge's an experienced coach.
2009-10-27 5:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
x1000 on the advice to slow down.  I just did my first 26.2.  Trained for an 8:35/mile and went out way too fast.  First 10 miles at an 8:10 pace.  Then by the time I slowed down, it was too late.  By mile 21 I was near a 10 min pace, and I was cramping in my Hammies and calfs horribly.  Never once in training had a cramp, and they hit me hard, out of nowhere. 

It had ZERO to do with lytes or hydration or muscular strength.  I pushed too hard early, then got beyond my limit, and my muscles just said "Uncle!"

So, do train at a slower pace.  And please try to go slow come December 12th.  The tempatation to fly from the start will be there, but remember it is a looong race, and you need to save something for the last 6 miles.

Good Luck!
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