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Hours of Training Required to do an IM
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 2009-11-05 9:53 AM |
New user 327  |  Subject: Hours of Training Required to do an IMI see lots of people talking about doing an IM on 10-15 hours per week, and it made me wonder how much training is required. There have been a few studies that have shown that marathon runners exhibit heart damage after racing that is in an inverse relation to how much they train(little training/more damage --- lots of training/little to no damage) so if we believe the studies on marathon runners (and I know it's been a pretty small sample set) how many hours of training do you think would be required to allow someone to finish an IM without heart damage? |
| 2009-11-05 9:55 AM in reply to: #2498997 |
Regular 87 | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM Can you post a link to a study? |
| 2009-11-05 10:07 AM in reply to: #2498997 |
Cycling Guru 15134  Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM bufordt - 2009-11-05 10:53 AM There have been a few studies that have shown that marathon runners exhibit heart damage after racing that is in an inverse relation to how much they train(little training/more damage --- lots of training/little to no damage) so if we believe the studies on marathon runners (and I know it's been a pretty small sample set) how many hours of training do you think would be required to allow someone to finish an IM without heart damage? Sounds like a stretch to me .............. the cause/effect relationship is more than likely miniscule and people who have a proclivity to heart problems will get them regardless of their endurance activities. The thing they tend to find in a very limited sample is that there is a thickening of the walls of the heart in SOME endurance athletes. Not sure how that correlates to "heart damage." I would also like to see some link to studies on that. Now, it is interesting to note that there is a much higher risk of long term endurance athletes developing atrial fibrilation compared to the general population (5% versus less than 1%) but they are not sure as to why. Noakes talks about it in his book and links some studies on the topic. And since I personally have a-fib, it is something that is of interest to me. |
| 2009-11-05 10:21 AM in reply to: #2498997 |
Member 59 Baltimore | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM I am very curious about this topic since I am very new to endurance sports and pushing my limits a little sooner then I should be. I googled it and found an interesting artice. I am not sure what my opinion is on the topic but I am certainly going to look into it further. Here is the link: http://davetrekworld.blogspot.com/2009/10/are-marathons-safe-can-it-cause-heart.html |
| 2009-11-05 10:22 AM in reply to: #2499001 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM Here's a discussion on the issue with marathons. FYI spaniel is a sports physiologist. There has been studies showing a link to poor training and heart damage after running a marathon. No one is sure of the long-term effects, however. |
| 2009-11-05 12:11 PM in reply to: #2498997 |
Champion 7547  Albuquerque, New Mexico Bronze member | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM I read the articles Scout linked, and the question that I get is: The phenomenon is transient, so do the "trained" people experience the same trait, but since it occurs during training nobody saw it? I'm not a doctor, so this is from the perspective of a curious layman. |
| 2009-11-05 12:14 PM in reply to: #2499326 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM McFuzz - 2009-11-05 1:11 PM I read the articles Scout linked, and the question that I get is: The phenomenon is transient, so do the "trained" people experience the same trait, but since it occurs during training nobody saw it? I'm not a doctor, so this is from the perspective of a curious layman. From my understanding (not a doc, but having seen this discussion in other places), the better trained you are, the less of a problem it becomes. In other words, it's not that it goes away faster, it's that it happens less and less the better trained you become. |
| 2009-11-05 12:33 PM in reply to: #2498997 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM Both my father and uncle (his brother) have a-fib. Now I also have it and I'm taking medication to help control the arrythmia (a beta blocker). I had read already that athletes - not just marathoners - have a higher incidence of a-fib but both my father and uncle are not long distance athletes. Also, my grandmother had congestive heart disease and had her first heart problem around 40 years old. So in my case I am pretty sure it is a hereditary aspect. But I would not be surprised if it has been accelerated by the 20 years of endurance sports I have done. I need to get my cardiologists e-mail address so I can send Scout's link over ...... Edited by Daremo 2009-11-05 12:34 PM |
| 2009-11-05 1:10 PM in reply to: #2498997 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM Oh, and as a crappy aside? Even on my medication I'm sitting at my desk with an a-fib episode happening right now. Great ......... |
| 2009-11-05 1:24 PM in reply to: #2499490 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM Daremo - 2009-11-05 2:10 PM Oh, and as a crappy aside? Even on my medication I'm sitting at my desk with an a-fib episode happening right now. Great ......... I think you're just swooning over my awesomeness. It's ok. You can admit it. Bryan has a man-crush on me, too. I'm getting used to it by now. |
| 2009-11-05 2:04 PM in reply to: #2499335 |
Champion 7547 Albuquerque, New Mexico Bronze member | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM Scout7 - 2009-11-05 12:14 PM McFuzz - 2009-11-05 1:11 PM I read the articles Scout linked, and the question that I get is: The phenomenon is transient, so do the "trained" people experience the same trait, but since it occurs during training nobody saw it? I'm not a doctor, so this is from the perspective of a curious layman. From my understanding (not a doc, but having seen this discussion in other places), the better trained you are, the less of a problem it becomes. In other words, it's not that it goes away faster, it's that it happens less and less the better trained you become. Is it possible that all of the "trained" athletes had exactly the same transient thickening during training? The "trained" athletes in the study maybe showed better response (less thickening) because their heart has already been through the process a dozen or more times during training? Is it possible that the "trained" athlete is starting with thicker walls so the transient is less pronounced? Is there data to suggest a correlation between the training load and likelihood of A-fib? Or the training (ie stress) pattern and likelihood of A-fib? Am I 5x more likely to suffer A-fib simply because I'm running a marathon (independent of "proper training") Is there a trend due to either acute or chronic stress (i.e. it really IS worse to run a marathon undertrained)? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious about the issue since I have a family history of heart disease. These were some of the questions that spun around in my pseudo-scientific mind as I read the article. I've had similar questions about hypertension. |
| 2009-11-05 2:05 PM in reply to: #2499529 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM Scout7 - 2009-11-05 1:24 PM Daremo - 2009-11-05 2:10 PM Oh, and as a crappy aside? Even on my medication I'm sitting at my desk with an a-fib episode happening right now. Great ......... I think you're just swooning over my awesomeness. It's ok. You can admit it. Bryan has a man-crush on me, too. I'm getting used to it by now. It's true...even more so now that I know he's a sci-fi fan...... |
| 2009-11-05 2:07 PM in reply to: #2499604 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM You're going well beyond my abilities at this point. I can only recommend that you talk to someone who looks at this stuff. In the one link I provided, the gentleman I mention is an actual physiologist, and has studied some of this stuff (or at least knows the people who have), so I would consider talking to him, perhaps. |
| 2009-11-05 2:12 PM in reply to: #2498997 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM What Noakes pointed out in his studies in his book is that in Scandanavian researchers findings, there was a similar 5% number for orienteering people (hard core trail runners and walkers). There was no reference of undertrained vs. overperformed in longer races. It was more the continuous training load over years and years just seemed to have some sort of correlation to a higher incidence of a-fib. It was really interesting to have read that within a few weeks of officially being disgnosed with a-fib. It immediately made me question whether or not the years of training made a potential hereditary problem more advanced. Another interesting thing after I sent my Dad the article an hour or so ago .... hehas been running for 30 years (doesn't run anymore, but still walks almost daily) and he said that his cardio said his right ventrical is larger which is something that the article noted. He has never really raced, so the whole "overperform" issue is not on the table here. And he rarely ever ramped up the mileage training for anything other than one marathon which he injured himself and did not compete. And if thinking about you makes my resting HR around 140, then I definitely am batting for the wrong team.  |
| 2009-11-06 11:24 AM in reply to: #2498997 |
| 221 | Subject: RE: Hours of Training Required to do an IM Is it possible that people genetically predisposed to A-fib are also genetically predisposed to running marathons/trail runs/etc instead of exercise being the root of A-fib? Perhaps a decreased threshold of atrial action potential or some other mechanism would actually allow one to respond to increased long term stress (ie marathon, etc.) but also tip the scale toward A-fib in the resting state. Or perhaps atrial action potentials in some persons are influenced more by sympathetic drive than in others, leading to increased ease of long distance exercise (start running-increase sympathetic drive-respond quickly and efficiently with increased cardiac output) but also increased incidence of A-fib in the resting state. Disclaimer: This is just a thought. I haven't read the literature, so maybe this has already been addressed. |
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