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2010-02-06 11:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?

I haven't done either yet, but my plan is for my first IM and first 26.2 mile run (At least I hope to run more than I walk) to be on November 6 at IMFL!



2010-02-06 5:47 PM
in reply to: #2658377

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Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
rstocks3 - 2010-02-06 7:24 AM
trix - 2010-02-05 3:22 PM
Daremo - 2010-02-05 2:01 PM I would not consider someone's IM marathon to be a ...... marathon.

The run portion of an IM is simply the last part of a 140.6 mile race.  That and an open marathon are two completely different animals.

Now, if your question was "Was your first time going over 26 miles in any combination of a run/walk during your first IM?" then you'd have a request that made more sense to me.


can you explain it?  why is there a difference?


Are you serious? Was there supposed to be a sarcastic font to that question?

The IM marathon is a different animal altogether. You're coming off a minimum 6 1/2 hr "warm-up" and if you haven't kept up with your nutrition your legs are feeling like jelly BEFORE the marathon. Even if you are on top of your nutrition and your legs are fresh you have been bent over in aero position for the better part of a normal workday and now your going to get vertical and "run" a marathon.

After doing a handful of Ironman races and a handful of marathons, my experience has been that they are two completely different animals, 26.2 miles is the only similarity they share.

To the OP, there is no need to complete a marathon before an IM. If you're following a plan then you'll be prepared for the run. Just stay on top of your nutrition and walk the aid stations, starting with the first aid station. The IM experience is an awesome one, enjoy every minute of it and don't forget to thank the volunteers!!


What Bob said ^^^.

I personally would never consider the run portion of an IM a "marathon" in the sense of a running race.  It is simply a 26.2 mile portion of the race you do on foot.

If you really count the number of people who run that portion of the race ........ I mean truly run it ......... you are looking at probably only around 10 - 20% of the field.  And just look at the number of people who finish under 4 hours?  Again, only a very small percentage.

That is because, it matters not what your running abilities are AT ALL in an IM.  It is all about conserving on the swim, riding smart on the bike and taking in the right nutrition in the right proportions.

Example?  I ran a 3:15 BQ marathon on a tough course 3 weeks out from IMFL as my last big workout.  But I walked the entire run portion of that IM (for various reasons both physical and pace related).  I'm almost always top 10% in runs in short course events.  I am almost always top 5% in my marathon finishes (other than Boston) even when untrained.  But even in my second IM where I paced well on both the swim and bike, I still only ran half the run portion of the event.  Yet I beat my FL time by quite a bit on LESS run training in my lead up to the race.  My longest run after Boston that April was around 12 miles.

As Bob said, they are two completely different animals.  One is a marathon, the other is a triathlon.

Edited by Daremo 2010-02-06 5:51 PM
2010-02-06 6:11 PM
in reply to: #2658466

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Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
KathyG - 2010-02-06 8:35 AM

Same question asked on IM thread read responses here especially Rich Strauss' response..he is one of the coaches on Endurance Nation.

If you follow his links there are two videos that go in depth that answers why running a Mary before an IM isn't a good idea in the off season.


All due respect to Rich, I think it can be helpful to run a marathon as part of an very early season run specific phase assuming you have time to recover and get back to IM training. As Rick, Bob, and others have said, an IM run is very different from a marathon. If the recovery cost isn't excessive, the training build for a marathon is run fitness you can carry all year. I felt I was running my best in the 2008 season after training for and running Boston. I didn't do an IM that year, but I had my best 70.3 run splits ever. For me, there was a lesson there.
2010-02-06 7:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
There was an article in Triathlete Magazine a few months ago about how to have a good run during an IM.  Basically it said the key was swim and bike fitness combined with good pacing.  This is more important than run fitness or running a marathon in advance.  It sounds like that's consistent with what you more experienced guys are saying.
2010-02-06 7:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
TriMyBest - 2010-02-06 7:06 PM
  It sounds like that's consistent with what you more experienced guys are saying.


...except me.
2010-02-06 7:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
bryancd - 2010-02-06 8:10 PM
TriMyBest - 2010-02-06 7:06 PM   It sounds like that's consistent with what you more experienced guys are saying.
...except me.


Give it a few more years Bryan, then you'll be considered "more experienced".


2010-02-06 7:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
rstocks3 - 2010-02-06 7:28 PM

bryancd - 2010-02-06 8:10 PM
TriMyBest - 2010-02-06 7:06 PM   It sounds like that's consistent with what you more experienced guys are saying.
...except me.


Give it a few more years Bryan, then you'll be considered "more experienced".


ROTFLMAO!!!!

...I suck....
2010-02-07 6:58 AM
in reply to: #2659209

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Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
bryancd - 2010-02-06 8:41 PM
rstocks3 - 2010-02-06 7:28 PM
bryancd - 2010-02-06 8:10 PM
TriMyBest - 2010-02-06 7:06 PM   It sounds like that's consistent with what you more experienced guys are saying.
...except me.


Give it a few more years Bryan, then you'll be considered "more experienced".
ROTFLMAO!!!! ...I suck....


Ouch!  LOL!

Sorry Brian I read your post too fast the first time and misread it.  It doesn't matter anyway, because you don't count...It's easy to have a good IM run when you're only out on the course for 9 1/2 hours.  Now racing for 14 or 15 hours, that's hard!  Laughing
2010-02-07 12:39 PM
in reply to: #2659058

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Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
Daremo - 2010-02-06 3:47 PM

rstocks3 - 2010-02-06 7:24 AM
trix - 2010-02-05 3:22 PM
Daremo - 2010-02-05 2:01 PM I would not consider someone's IM marathon to be a ...... marathon.

The run portion of an IM is simply the last part of a 140.6 mile race.  That and an open marathon are two completely different animals.

Now, if your question was "Was your first time going over 26 miles in any combination of a run/walk during your first IM?" then you'd have a request that made more sense to me.


can you explain it?  why is there a difference?


Are you serious? Was there supposed to be a sarcastic font to that question?

The IM marathon is a different animal altogether. You're coming off a minimum 6 1/2 hr "warm-up" and if you haven't kept up with your nutrition your legs are feeling like jelly BEFORE the marathon. Even if you are on top of your nutrition and your legs are fresh you have been bent over in aero position for the better part of a normal workday and now your going to get vertical and "run" a marathon.

After doing a handful of Ironman races and a handful of marathons, my experience has been that they are two completely different animals, 26.2 miles is the only similarity they share.

To the OP, there is no need to complete a marathon before an IM. If you're following a plan then you'll be prepared for the run. Just stay on top of your nutrition and walk the aid stations, starting with the first aid station. The IM experience is an awesome one, enjoy every minute of it and don't forget to thank the volunteers!!


What Bob said ^^^.

I personally would never consider the run portion of an IM a "marathon" in the sense of a running race.  It is simply a 26.2 mile portion of the race you do on foot.

If you really count the number of people who run that portion of the race ........ I mean truly run it ......... you are looking at probably only around 10 - 20% of the field.  And just look at the number of people who finish under 4 hours?  Again, only a very small percentage.

That is because, it matters not what your running abilities are AT ALL in an IM.  It is all about conserving on the swim, riding smart on the bike and taking in the right nutrition in the right proportions

  • ...

  • As Bob said, they are two completely different animals.  One is a marathon, the other is a triathlon.


    Agree almost completely with Bob and Rick. The only commonality is the difference. I've done 7 open marathons and six IMs and I am one of those people who plans and tries very hard to run the run. I would never say I've done 13 marathons although that's how many times I've ran 26.2 miles in a race.

    IMHO, If your plan is to run those 26.2 miles, then your running ability actually does matter - both physical and mental.

    You don't need to have completed an open marathon, but you do need to be able to run off the bike and you need to be able to go the distance on tired legs. If you plan to walk the aid stations, you need to have walked 20 seconds every 3 miles in your long runs. It's remarkably difficult to start running again late in the run after walking the aid stations. You need to know which steep sections should be walked and which should be ran. You need to know how much nutrition your body needs and which food sit well and which make you sick.

    You can gain a lot of that experience and self-knowledge in an open marathon, but not all of it. The IM run is a unique event and part of what makes an IM amazing.
    2010-02-07 3:06 PM
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    Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?

    My first, and only so far, marathon was in an IM. I basically trained as a minimalists toward the run (maxed @ 45 miles a week) figuring the swim and bike was a large part of the training...obviously. 

     

    In case you were wondering I didn't win

    2010-02-07 7:12 PM
    in reply to: #2659079

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    Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
    bryancd - 2010-02-06 7:11 PM
    KathyG - 2010-02-06 8:35 AM Same question asked on IM thread read responses here especially Rich Strauss' response..he is one of the coaches on Endurance Nation.

    If you follow his links there are two videos that go in depth that answers why running a Mary before an IM isn't a good idea in the off season.
    All due respect to Rich, I think it can be helpful to run a marathon as part of an very early season run specific phase assuming you have time to recover and get back to IM training. As Rick, Bob, and others have said, an IM run is very different from a marathon. If the recovery cost isn't excessive, the training build for a marathon is run fitness you can carry all year. I felt I was running my best in the 2008 season after training for and running Boston. I didn't do an IM that year, but I had my best 70.3 run splits ever. For me, there was a lesson there.


    I think it depends on the athlete for sure.

    Some of us are older, slower and don't recover as fast as others. I suspect in general faster folks like you Bryan recover quite quickly so a Marathon doesn't put such a hole in your training as someone like me. Most folks that encourage folks to do Marys in IM training are folks I would consider faster type triathletes. I don't think I recall reading here on BT a slower triathlete with say 5+ hour IM Mary recommending doing a Mary in their IM training.

    Also depends which IM you are doing and which Mary you want to do.

    Doing Boston and Kona or IMAZ are quite different timing wise than saying doing Boston and IMLP, 5-6 months between Mary and Mary is different than doing one 2-3 months apart.


    2010-02-08 5:56 PM
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    Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?

    Sounds like the "IM marathon is totally different from an open marathon" question has been answered.

    As for the question of the usefulness of marathons, in general, as a training tool I answer with a loud no/not very and here is why (Cliffnotes version of our videos. FYI, you should watch, especially Patrick who is a big guy but is a sub 3'hr marathon, 3:2x at IMCDA and IMLP)

    • I'm a triathlon coach
    • You are a triathlete = you want to S, B, R faser
    • In my world:
      • Faster Bike = interval training creating higher watts/speed at threshold which are translated to faster cycling all distances once we put endurance under it.
      • Faster Run = Higher VDot number (per Jack Daniels methods for training with pace), creating faster HIM and IM run times once we put endurance under it.
    • Marathon training then creates some significant opportunity costs for the triathlete looking to become a faster triathlete
    1. At some point marathon training begins to compromise get faster on the bike training.
    2. Marathon training, in my experience, is not the best and most time efficient tool to make someone a faster runner, to lift their VDot. Stronger, more durable, can go longer...yes...but for me that's what we do in the last 16wks or so before an IM. Before that we focus on making you faster.
    3. The net is that you don't really get that much faster at either: your marathon training isn't super great cuz you've still got your triathlete hat on = riding a bike, etc. And your bike doesn't get much faster because you're having to compromise your bike training because of all the marathon running you're doing.
    • The significant accomodation/recovery hole punched into your schedule: 2wk taper on the front end, and the 3-4wks required to recover for a marathon on the back end. That's a BIG 4-6wk "accommodation hole" which, depending on the time of year, distance from your race, etc, can be a total non-starter.

    Me, tri coach, sez to you, triathlete, that's NOT a good idea to do a marathon if your goal is to improve your triathlon times.

    That said, this is all just a game, your fitness is a vehicle for doing cool stuff and, for you, maybe this marathon is just something you want to do. I totally get that. If you read all of the above and it makes sense...but you just gotta do the Podunk Marathon because you're running with your twin sisters and dad will be there to watch...go for it! Just don't expect it to help your tri-mojo, may likely hurt it, but if you're cool with it, go for it. However, if you are going to run a marathon, I recommend taking off the tri-hat all together and just train for an run a very, very good marathon.

    Or train for a marathon and run a half marathon instead, as the recover cost of that course of action is MUCH smaller than doing the actual marathon.

    This opportunity cost, accommodation hole conversation is one I've had with about a thousand athletes over the years, especially fast dudes/ettes racing Boston in route to IMCDA or IMLP. Just a bad idea, but I get it, and support them, when they still want to do it.

    2010-02-08 6:17 PM
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    Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
    I see that as a bit too cookie cutter. A run specific phase, say 2-3 months, for a trained triathlete, can very much still include swim and bike. I never stopped swimming and biking when I built up for Boston. I trained like a triathlete looking to increase their run volume. Running a marathon doesn't have to be an all or nothing approach where S/B are thrown out the window. Would I do it during a year where I was racing Ironman? Only if they were separated by 7-8 months, agian as I said so the recovery cost has a minimal impact on training volume for the season but where the run fitness benefits can still be realized. Is it needed? No way and I agree an Ironman run is an Ironman run while an open marathon is a totally different animal. Running a 2:58 at Boston HURT way more than completing a 9:20 Ironman. You go to a bad place racing a Marathon whereas an Ironman just crushes you with fatigue.

    Edited by bryancd 2010-02-08 6:18 PM
    2010-02-08 6:49 PM
    in reply to: #2657252


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    Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
         i ran six marathons  , before i did my one and only ironman.  my best time was 3:42 in nyc in 2002. my worst time was 4:55 in 1995. this my sound a little nuts, but i found the i/man easier than my first marathon. the thing is , i was not ready the my first  marathon. i had a had a hard time in the last  six miles or so.  but when it came to my ironman in 2005 { 12:25 with a4:15   run} i was ready.so do i think you have to run 26 miles before the i/m maybe not . but  what  i would do is a few big training days. ex: sat  ride 100 to 110 miles  than sunday run 18 to 22 miles than see how you feel. i also did some big bricks ride 75 and run 15 or a little more. also a few  bike 25  run6, bike 25 run 6 . that's a great training day.
         one post stated that the last 5 miles he could see the end . i found this also true. the think about  your first marathon , you don't know what to think. the half way point of a marathon  , you are only halfway home. the halfway point of the i/m run, well the race is over just get to the finish line . one last thing  i did not eat any cookies , chicken broth, pj jelly sand, only water , sustained engry, hammer gels and endurolytes.i found this worked the best for me.   i dont know if this helps . i hope it does
    2010-02-08 7:08 PM
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    Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
    What the majority of "participants" in an IM say is that once you hit the marathon it is almost over.  It is simply a countdown to the finish (ie - 26 miles to go, 13 miles to go, 5 miles to go, finish!).

    A marathon is 6 miles, halfway, 18 miles, 20 miles!!  Then the race really begins and it is suffer until the end.

    I've got 9 marathon finishes.  All under 4 hours with 5 of them under 3:30.  They ALL hurt more than my IM marathons did.

    It is totally different for someone like Bryan who is really running his azz off and competing for the overall in his AG versus the "regular folks" in the race (not that anyone is working any less hard in the race regardless of time).  But his run portion of the race means a lot more than someone elses in the immediate outcome of the race.  I don't mean that in any sort of derragatory way ... I hope that it is not taken that way.  It simply means he has to approach both the training and the physical race itself different than the people just looking to do their best and get to the end.  In my marathons I've never "thrown in the towel" during the race.  I simply went until I couldn't physically go any further and then adjusted my pace accordingly.  In my second IM I said "Myeh, what's the point?" and stopped and walked.  There was nothing so physical as the pain that made me slow down in my marathons.
    2010-02-09 9:24 AM
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    Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
    bryancd - 2010-02-06 7:11 PM
    KathyG - 2010-02-06 8:35 AM Same question asked on IM thread read responses here especially Rich Strauss' response..he is one of the coaches on Endurance Nation.

    If you follow his links there are two videos that go in depth that answers why running a Mary before an IM isn't a good idea in the off season.
    All due respect to Rich, I think it can be helpful to run a marathon as part of an very early season run specific phase assuming you have time to recover and get back to IM training. As Rick, Bob, and others have said, an IM run is very different from a marathon. If the recovery cost isn't excessive, the training build for a marathon is run fitness you can carry all year. I felt I was running my best in the 2008 season after training for and running Boston. I didn't do an IM that year, but I had my best 70.3 run splits ever. For me, there was a lesson there.


    Of course, the lesson is not that running a marathon helps your tri running.  It's that MORE running (i.e., marathon TRAINING) helps your tri running.  You could run more and do a half marathon.  Or 10ks.  Or 5ks.  Or no racing at all.  And you would be a better runner in tris for it.

    IMO, running a marathon does very little for your IM run.  Running "more" (good mix of frequency, volume, intensity) does quite a lot.  If running a marathon is the only way for someone to wrap their head around the idea of really running more, then maybe it's a good idea for them.


    2010-02-09 10:44 AM
    in reply to: #2663111

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    Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
    Yes.

    Advice?  I guess don't think of it as a marathon.  Just the run portion of the IM.  In fact, I never game myself credit for doing a marathon untill I did a stand alone marathon.

    Also, I like to break it down in pieces...  First, I get the first 10k done and tell myself, "I have less than 20 miles to go.  that's just a LONG training day."  Then get to the half mary and tell myself, "just a half mary to go.  Easy."  Then get to the 20 mile mark, "just a 10k to go - I will be done in an hour"...

    When I'm seriously hurting, I even break it down a little more.  I tell myself to just get to the next aid station - it's less than 10 minutes away.  I can walk a bit and take in some nutrition, fluids, etc... 
    2010-02-09 10:51 AM
    in reply to: #2662294

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    Subject: RE: Was your first marathon during your first IM?
    Daremo - 2010-02-08 5:08 PM

    A marathon is 6 miles, halfway, 18 miles, 20 miles!!  Then the race really begins and it is suffer until the end.



    yep.  The same for us slow people as well...

    (4:22 - was my one and only marathon - I probably should have trained for it and not let another BTer talk me into it...  )
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