General Discussion Triathlon Talk » How to improve bike speed for 112? Rss Feed  
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2010-02-17 11:07 AM

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Elite
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Subject: How to improve bike speed for 112?

This will be my third season of Tri ing off the couch with no background in any of the three sports. 

I biked 2800 miles in 2008 and 3500 miles in 2009. 

I did a flat HIM (Boise) in the rain with a 19 mph bike pace and a somewhat hilly/not flat IM (Vineman) at a 17.1 mph pace. 

At IM distance I can make more time up on the bike than on swim or run at this point as my run is respectible (3:19 open mary) and my swim is not going to improve that much any time soon (1:25:00 IM swim). 

I am looking for thoughts on how much more biking and where to focus to get faster for CDA this year and biking in general for years to come.  I would like to have a decent bike split within the next couple/several years at IM distance (19-20 mph) and am admittedly not close to that at the moment.     

Are my total yearly miles just sucky or do I need to focus more on intensity/hills.  My TT lastnight puts my LT at 171 (up 6 beats from last year)  maxing at 178 in the last minute of the test which puts it close to my run TT of LT 175 (I know this doesn't mean much).   

So higher zones of training, hill work, just more miles at a slightly faster than comfortable pace?  I am open to any advice from our experienced cyclists.  I hope to go 4000 to 4500 miles biked this year.  Is that still going to be gimp or do I need to raise the bar? 



2010-02-17 11:18 AM
in reply to: #2677416

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Coach
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
Well, it's hard to address an entire season's plan in a single post, but the approach that I would take is to make 2 separate 3 month blocks (not sure when your race is, maybe I missed it), and spend the first 3 months working primarily on raising your threshold power/pace on the bike by cutting out the long rides and instead focusing on High Zone 3, Zone4 and Zone 5 riding (sweet spot, threshold and VO2).

By the end of 3 months your threshold power/pace should be significantly higher than at the beginning. At this point, you can begin to weave in the longer rides you'll need for the IM bike portion, but start doing those longer rides with sets of sweet spot/tempo training and a bit of threshold.

As you continue getting stronger, continue extending the duration of your IM long training rides while keeping your effort at the higher end of Zone 2 for good IM bike pacing. You'll need to do frequent reassessments of your current training zones to keep this rides at the intensity they need to be.

A simple outline, the details would be a lot more specific.

This is the exact approach I'm using with my IM athletes this year, and the approach I used for all of my endurance MTBers last year (6 hr , 12 hr & 24 hr team & solo racers). The underlying principals of physiology apply in a similar fashion if you want to GO LONG and GET FASTER. You simply need to raise your threshold, and not only ride more hours. Mix up the traditional training methodology by ding threshold & Vo2 work before you start building your long rides and you will be pleasantly surprised.

2010-02-17 11:21 AM
in reply to: #2677416

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Champion
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
FWIW simply going on mileage will only go so far (it needs to be taken with everything else).
As an example i rode about 3800 miles last year and was ave verydiff speeds than you over the HIM distance.

that said, assuming you are getting in enough volume, a few of the big mistakes i see people making in longer racing are:

doing their longer rides too slow, either keep a steady tempo effort for a portion of it, or bouts of faster zn4 work.

middle distance zn3/4 rides (the zn3 part is open for debate, i personally believe it is a big help).
something like 2-3 hours with a large portion in zn3 (50-90 min).

FTP intervals. A lot of longer distance athletes let go of threshold work, this is a huge help even for the longer stuff. get those three rides in a week, and then fill as much more mileage as you can, would be a good start.
2010-02-17 11:26 AM
in reply to: #2677471

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Coach
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
newbz - 2010-02-17 10:21 AM
middle distance zn3/4 rides (the zn3 part is open for debate, i personally believe it is a big help).


There's no debate about this (unless you are reading the training bible, which is outdated). Training in Zone 3 is more effective at building all the components of aerobic excercise than Zone 2 is. Zone 3 = bigger bang for the buck. But you can't ride an IM leg in Zone 3 or you'll be cooked for the run, so by necessity you have to do your longer rides at the TOP END of your Zone 2.

Great advice newbz.
2010-02-17 11:34 AM
in reply to: #2677488

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Champion
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
i agree with most of what you said too (i must have been writing my post as you were).

I've seen a lot of people debating whether tempo is worth doing (vs doing more over and under it).
It seemed like a lot of people in the boulder area were very against it. From my own training and coaching, i think it is a huge help, and i remember i did a LOT of that tyoe of work rowing (and that was for MUCH shorter races).
2010-02-17 11:35 AM
in reply to: #2677416

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Elite
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Alturas, California
Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
Ok a few more details. 

I am 42 years old, so recovery is a little slower than if I were younger. 

My next (2nd IM) is CDA on June 27th or there abouts so that is my IM for this year.  I understand there is not much time for improvement between now and then, so part of this is a long term goal of improving bike speed over the next several years in addition to just for this IM.  I can put in whatever time/hours I need to within what my body can tollerate.     


2010-02-17 11:43 AM
in reply to: #2677519

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Champion
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
newbz - 2010-02-17 12:34 PM i agree with most of what you said too (i must have been writing my post as you were). I've seen a lot of people debating whether tempo is worth doing (vs doing more over and under it). It seemed like a lot of people in the boulder area were very against it. From my own training and coaching, i think it is a huge help, and i remember i did a LOT of that tyoe of work rowing (and that was for MUCH shorter races).


Thats odd, I posted on that today...
here's the thread (over there!)
2010-02-17 11:43 AM
in reply to: #2677524

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Champion
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
you have just over 4 months, that is plenty of time to see some decent gains/
2010-02-17 12:03 PM
in reply to: #2677416

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Veteran
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
Baowolf - 2010-02-17 11:07 AM

I did a flat HIM (Boise) in the rain with a 19 mph bike pace and a somewhat hilly/not flat IM (Vineman) at a 17.1 mph pace. 



I think smarter people than me have given their thoughts on the training plan.  But you really thought Boise was flat?!?  The headwind alone made me feel like middle 1/3 of the bike was uphill.  19 mph during that race (wind, hail, rain, lightning . . . ) is pretty impressive.
2010-02-17 12:09 PM
in reply to: #2677416

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Not a Coach
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
You got some good advice on the bike.  I'll add one other thing even though you didn't really ask about it.

Swim more.  Harder.  You should be able to see 10'+ improvement to your swim time with some work.  This is not to be dismissed as it should also have you using less energy and hitting T1 fresher.  A 1:15 swim would still put you solidly MOP, but set you up much better for a good day and a better chance to put that marathon to work.

Edited by JohnnyKay 2010-02-17 12:32 PM
2010-02-17 12:25 PM
in reply to: #2677416

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Champion
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
You need to add more net weekly mileage, you need to keep doing some intensity work a few times per month, and you need to ride your long rides faster. I have mwentioned before in other IM bike threads, there's a lot of long bike training done by folks training for IM that are at too low an intensity. Riding 75 miles ina low Zone 2 won't make you faster, it will make you good at riding in a low Zone 2. Using LT as a reference point, I ride 100% of my "aerobic" training rides at 10-15% of my bike LT, 0r about 20-25% of max HR. Now I have been doing that for a number of years and that might be too much for you right now, but try working a high Zone 2 on your long rides. It's hard, but training is where you want it to be hard.


2010-02-17 12:32 PM
in reply to: #2677642

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Elite
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
bryancd - 2010-02-17 12:25 PM You need to add more net weekly mileage, you need to keep doing some intensity work a few times per month, and you need to ride your long rides faster. I have mwentioned before in other IM bike threads, there's a lot of long bike training done by folks training for IM that are at too low an intensity. Riding 75 miles ina low Zone 2 won't make you faster, it will make you good at riding in a low Zone 2. Using LT as a reference point, I ride 100% of my "aerobic" training rides at 10-15% of my bike LT, 0r about 20-25% of max HR. Now I have been doing that for a number of years and that might be too much for you right now, but try working a high Zone 2 on your long rides. It's hard, but training is where you want it to be hard.


this is pretty interesting, since i have a 70.3 miami in oct.  I will take this advice into consideration. 

so say i have a 3 hr ride planned on saturday which would be 60 miles for me as I tend to ave 20 mph, ride this at high z2 or low z3? 
2010-02-17 12:40 PM
in reply to: #2677642

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Champion
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
bryancd - 2010-02-17 1:25 PM You need to add more net weekly mileage, you need to keep doing some intensity work a few times per month, and you need to ride your long rides faster. I have mwentioned before in other IM bike threads, there's a lot of long bike training done by folks training for IM that are at too low an intensity. Riding 75 miles ina low Zone 2 won't make you faster, it will make you good at riding in a low Zone 2. Using LT as a reference point, I ride 100% of my "aerobic" training rides at 10-15% of my bike LT, 0r about 20-25% of max HR. Now I have been doing that for a number of years and that might be too much for you right now, but try working a high Zone 2 on your long rides. It's hard, but training is where you want it to be hard.


Just so we're clear -- you mean 10-15% BELOW LT, right?
2010-02-17 12:41 PM
in reply to: #2677654

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Not a Coach
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
trix - 2010-02-17 1:32 PM

this is pretty interesting, since i have a 70.3 miami in oct.  I will take this advice into consideration. 

so say i have a 3 hr ride planned on saturday which would be 60 miles for me as I tend to ave 20 mph, ride this at high z2 or low z3? 


Bryan will give you his take, but here's mine.  If you've got 3 hours to ride, do a solid warm-up for ~20' or so.  Do 2-3 x 10-12' at threshold with about 3-4' rests between intervals.  Ride easy for 5-10' and then ride z3 for ~45'.  Recover for ~5-10' and do it again.  For the z3 intervals, I would target an effort level a bit above your HIM pacing.  Ride as you feel for the remainder, if any.

In short, ride hard.  Harder, in total, than you would ride in an HIM.
2010-02-17 12:42 PM
in reply to: #2677654

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Champion
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
trix - 2010-02-17 12:32 PM
so say i have a 3 hr ride planned on saturday which would be 60 miles for me as I tend to ave 20 mph, ride this at high z2 or low z3? 


Certainly aim to average in the mid of Zone 2, so that means as much time above as below. 70.3's are a bit different from IM as I always ride my long IM rides AT IM planeed race pace/effort. For 70.3's, I will ride long rides at that same effort and then do shorter rides with Half paced tempo work thrown in. But to answer your question, yes, if you are sitting up cruising your 60 mile ride at a what you perceive as an "easy" aerobic effort, go faster.
2010-02-17 12:43 PM
in reply to: #2677416

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Elite
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Alturas, California
Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
Hehe I am always seem to be in 15 to 20 mph winds on my rides, so Boise was not bad at all wind wise.  The rain on the other hand was not condusive to really fast times on the bike and kind of slippery on that one downhill 20 mph progresive corner at around mile 45.

I am working on the swim, but not hopefull that I will get any faster at it any time soon.  I will have the endurance to swim it and be fresh for the bike, but I am not optomistic about increasing my speed much.  It has pretty much been stuck where it is for nearly a year.  I have better pool access this year (no more 200 mile drives per swim), but we shall see what happens with the speed.    


2010-02-17 12:45 PM
in reply to: #2677673

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Champion
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
Experior - 2010-02-17 12:40 PM
Just so we're clear -- you mean 10-15% BELOW LT, right?


That's right, Mike.
2010-02-18 12:32 PM
in reply to: #2677551

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Coach
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
Leegoocrap - 2010-02-17 10:43 AM

newbz - 2010-02-17 12:34 PM i agree with most of what you said too (i must have been writing my post as you were). I've seen a lot of people debating whether tempo is worth doing (vs doing more over and under it). It seemed like a lot of people in the boulder area were very against it. From my own training and coaching, i think it is a huge help, and i remember i did a LOT of that tyoe of work rowing (and that was for MUCH shorter races).


Thats odd, I posted on that today...
here's the thread (over there!)


In that ST thread, you queried if people go for the "bang for the buck and grind in tempo". Since I used the words "bang for the buck", I hope you didn't post that question based on what I wrote...because if so I ddin't explain it well. I simply meant compared to doing Zone 2 on longer rides, doign Zone 3 is going to give you more bang for the buck. Also, I'm sure you know that there are training ranges in between tempo and VO2 as well.

anyway I didn't read all the responses "over there", but they mostly seeemd pretty good, so I'll just leave it at that.


Amazing...we got through a whole "get faster" thread without an argument.
2010-02-18 12:48 PM
in reply to: #2679640

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Champion
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
AdventureBear - 2010-02-18 1:32 PM  Amazing...we got through a whole "get faster" thread without an argument.


I think that the best way to get faster on the bike is to:

* Eat nothing (it helps your body learn to burn fat)
* Train using a HRM
* Most of your volume in Z1 (I heard that some German pursuit pros did this once and won Olympic Gold)
* Lower your seat
* 3 words:  "Carbon Bottle Cage"
2010-02-18 2:06 PM
in reply to: #2679699

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Master
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
Experior - 2010-02-18 1:48 PM

AdventureBear - 2010-02-18 1:32 PM  Amazing...we got through a whole "get faster" thread without an argument.


I think that the best way to get faster on the bike is to:

* Eat nothing (it helps your body learn to burn fat)
* Train using a HRM
* Most of your volume in Z1 (I heard that some German pursuit pros did this once and won Olympic Gold)
* Lower your seat
* 3 words:  "Carbon Bottle Cage"


I ALMOST missed the red font... ;-)

Edited by tjtryon 2010-02-18 2:11 PM
2010-02-18 2:55 PM
in reply to: #2677416

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Elite
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?

You forgot aero wheels and helmet.



2010-02-18 3:13 PM
in reply to: #2677416

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
Here's another option to add to your arsenal.

Make your long rides all over the map and all different levels of intensity.

I almost never go out and ride with any sort of intent for the level of intensity.  I simply go out and ride how I feel.  Most of the time that means pushing the hills and cruising the downhills while steady state on the flats.  This even goes for my 100+ mile rides.  When I can start hammering a tough hill 80 miles into a ride then I know my fitness is coming along.

Unless I'm riding with someone else or on a very specific recovery ride I do not ride at a low intensity - ever.  I'm a firm believer in the Z3 range.

And you really want get faster?  Start road/crit racing.  You'll be amazed how fast your gains will come.
2010-02-18 4:28 PM
in reply to: #2677416

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Elite
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Alturas, California
Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
Not a lot of road races nearby.  I can go a couple years without seeing a road bike in my county.  Occasionaly someome is visiting relatives and brings their bike up.  Ya I could find a race somewhere.... I find tris.  Not sure if you can ride tri bikes in them and I don't have a road bike.   
2010-02-18 5:03 PM
in reply to: #2680395

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Champion
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
Baowolf - 2010-02-18 6:28 PM

Not a lot of road races nearby.  I can go a couple years without seeing a road bike in my county.  Occasionaly someome is visiting relatives and brings their bike up.  Ya I could find a race somewhere.... I find tris.  Not sure if you can ride tri bikes in them and I don't have a road bike.   


In that case, look into whether there is a cycling club that offers a TT series and/or into the your state's TT's.  Another great way to get faster.

Shane
2010-02-18 6:05 PM
in reply to: #2677488

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Master
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Subject: RE: How to improve bike speed for 112?
AdventureBear - 2010-02-17 11:26 AM
newbz - 2010-02-17 10:21 AM middle distance zn3/4 rides (the zn3 part is open for debate, i personally believe it is a big help).
There's no debate about this (unless you are reading the training bible, which is outdated). Training in Zone 3 is more effective at building all the components of aerobic excercise than Zone 2 is. Zone 3 = bigger bang for the buck. But you can't ride an IM leg in Zone 3 or you'll be cooked for the run, so by necessity you have to do your longer rides at the TOP END of your Zone 2. Great advice newbz.


Could you train in zone three for long rides and race IM in Zone 2 vs training in top end of zone 2?  Thanks.
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