General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"... Rss Feed  
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2010-02-19 5:28 PM

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Subject: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
A discussion started on Jorge's cycle power thread regarding using Kurt Kinetics power meter.  I wanted to put this up on tri forum to see is anyone else uses the KK power meter for trainer training and share some insight from marcag's setup.

marcag - 2010-02-19 1:24 PM
Donto - 2010-02-15 3:14 PM  The Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer did come with it's "power computer" but I don't have it setup right now.  Wondering if anyone has used the KK meter for the PM training?

I have a PowerTap, access to a computrainer and a KK with the power computer.
The PT on the computrainer give identical wattage numbers in the low and high range so I believe they are accurate

When I use the PT with the KK computer, at 165w they seem to say the same thing. But as The wattage increases, the KK gives higher readings. So at 185on the PT, the KK says 195. And at 220 on the PT the KK will say 260......you get the idea.
I don't think these meters are all that accurate. A little more work and  I suspect I could achieve Lance's FTP with this meter :-), ok , maybe not

Second problem is that it doesn't give an average wattage. It will be difficult to do the tests and figure out what your average power for 20 minutes will be unless you keep it very constant in which case you will have your eyes continuously on the computer which makes training kind of boring. I look over at the PT numbers every minute or so, and bring the average up a bit or down a bit....It would be difficult but not impossible with the KK PM.

If other people's experience is different please let me know. Maybe I am doing something wrong.

marcag - 2010-02-19 5:52 PM
Donto - 2010-02-19 4:14 PM KK website seems to say that the two parameters are settable what ever that means, but if it doesn't provide an average reading then it is useless.

I re-read the manual. Apparently you can get average power, you use one button (on the right) to get to "Power mode" then another key bottom left to switch between avg, max and instant power. If there would be a way to reset the average, this would be actually useful (if it was accurate). I will play with it more on tomorrow's workout. I'll PM you with any findings so not to hijack the thread.



2010-02-19 6:21 PM
in reply to: #2682709

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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
the good thing is, it doesn't have to be all that accurate (in accordance to exactly how much power you are putting down. It does have to be consistent)
The Actual NUMBERS (I.E. your watts) are just something to brag about. What is useful is to have those numbers to base training / racing zones off of for the next foreseeable future. (or until the next FTP)

There are just too many variables effecting a rider to Overtly worry about how accurate those numbers are, so long as they are going up

There are people putting down 200 watts that go faster than guys putting down 260 for example.

I think when you look at it that way, the KK "power meter" is a good value for people who don't want to devote to a $600+ wheel / crank
2010-02-19 9:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
After you complete you complete your warm up you reset the meter prior to starting the 20 minute test.  This can be done on the fly, you maybe off a few seconds, but that should not matter.

you have to go to the screen with the AVG and MAX spd showing on the bottom.  Holding the left side button, it say "resettng data" and that's it. 

Joe
2010-02-20 7:04 AM
in reply to: #2682709

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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
I am going to have to do more experimenting since I am finding out more and more of this things capabilities.

With the ability to measure average, I'll be better able to compare PT ro KK numbers. I agree that it's OK if they are different, but the difference must be linear. If it's 10% higher at 150, I want it to be 10% higher at 250. Or else it makes it difficult to use when training with Jorge's plan.

I tried using the average  this morning.
To do an average power, you go to the pwr screen by pressing the right button until you get there
Then you press the bottom left to get to average power.
To reset, you press the right button once, it brings you to a speed/dist screen.
You hold the left and right buttons down for 2 or 3 seconds and it resets
You can then scroll back to the average power screen by pressing the right button about 7 times.

You will then see you average power and this can be used for a 20min test.

If there was a way of doing a reset within the avg/power screen this would make this computer a lot easier to use for training. For example, when Jorge asks us to do 5 x 1' - 30sec at 65% 30sec at 100%, to use the average power screen would be a pain  because you have to do about 8 clicks + 2sec reset every time you want to reset and start measuring.

Is there an easier way ? How do people use it when doing an interval like the above.

I'll try and doing some PT to KK comparisons for power this week, playing with the amount of pressure applied to the wheel etc.


Edited by marcag 2010-02-20 7:06 AM
2010-02-20 9:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...

This winter I've started using the KKRM, their power equation, and my rear-wheel spedometer as a pseudo-power meter.

My KKRM is about 1.5 yrs old, and the fluid resistance unit wore out about 8 months ago (they replaced it for free, no questions asked, after I sent an email with my serial number and address).  One of the things I noticed is that the spedometer/"power" reading I get using the new fluid resistance unit is much different than I got from the old resistance unit.  Maybe that's because I had a deffective unit before?  Dunno.

Anyway, I'm just going with their mph-to-power formula, estimating my FTP using it, and setting up my training zones.  Based on my RPE (which is what really matters, imo), the zones are approximately correct.  Furthermore, the RPE required to hit a given speed/power is repeatable from day-to-day.  I'd be willing to be that the improvements seen training this way will be similar to those obtained using an accurate power meter on the trainer.

The biggest thing this has taught me is that training with power is a lot of fun, superior to HR training, and I'm going to want a real power meter once I get outside!

2010-02-20 9:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...

Let me start by saying I may have mislead the OP because I did not know I could do an average wattage. Using the instantaneous wattage, I would see the PT numbers and KK numbers were way off at the high end, hence my inital impressions.

So this morning I decided to measure this more scientifically and my initial impressions were WRONG.

Here was my testing protocol. Inflated my tire properly and tightened the KK as per instructions.

For every test I would cycle for about 1 minute and get to the power I would want to hold for 5 min. I did this because I know power fluctuates a lot in the first minute as you try to find your pace. When I would get to the right pace, I would press the reset button on both the KK and PT at the same time, and hold that power for 5 mins, using the PT as the one I would try and keep constant. The numbers were very close

PT
watts
KK
watts
% diff
(rough)
175174.5%
1901942%
2002094.5%
225224.5%
3053081%
   

I could redo that 200 test, but bottom line, the KK is not bad for the price and probably better than using HR for Jorge's training plan.

I still find all the clicks to do resets a little bit of a pain.

That 305 has a bit of story to it. This week I was scheduled to do a 5 minute test to determine my FTP. Originally to do the above tests I was going to measure up to 250. But during the 1 minute 250w warm up I saw I was holding 280 without effort, so I said the hell with it, I am goin to do a 5 min TT and I pushed hard and hence got the 305. When I started with Jorge in Dec my best 5min was 260. His program rules.

So to the OP, yes, I think the KK is a great tool and Jorge's winter training even better. Many happy watts to you.

Edited by marcag 2010-02-20 10:16 AM


2010-02-20 11:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
Thanks for the update.  That's more consistent with the other reviews/comparisons I've read, which usually put the error at 3% or less until about 400 Watts, at which point the error increases according to one review I read.  Unfortunately, I don't have to worry about that!
2010-02-21 9:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
marcag, that's for the feedback, I really appreciate your comparison help.

I found the manual that came with the meter, I have the older one with only two buttons on the bottom and the main button is of pretty poor quality.  Sometimes it doesn't register the other times it double hits.  I setup the meter on my bike and checked it out.  5 min check showed the MPH and distance were dead on so I looked over the 20 power test and decided to go for it, 204. Oh, I did find that it is easier to "start" a session with it pulled out of the holder so it will not function then slide it down onto the contacts to start.



2010-02-21 9:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like I could use the KK power meter to train on and be pretty close with my CycleOps power meter.  I was considering doing this so I could have power on both my bikes without having to change wheels. (One on the trainer and one for outside riding).

If they worked on making it easier to switch from average to instant watts etc... it would really be helpful <---In case KK is reading this thread

2010-02-21 10:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
Donto - 2010-02-21 9:16 AM  I looked over the 20 power test and decided to go for it, 204.


Stick to Jorge's plan religiously. It works, no doubt about it.

It will be really hard at times, but man, does it ever pay off.


2011-07-25 3:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...

Leegoocrap - 2010-02-19 6:21 PM
There are people putting down 200 watts that go faster than guys putting down 260 for example.

This is great to know - and a great encouragement!

I am 140lb and was amazed to find on my first time testing my 20min average power output with a new Kurt Kinetic Road Machine and Power Computer, I only managed to push an average of 212 watts. I was amazed at how low it was. As this figure was inconsistent with my experience of riding regularly in groups. At first I felt down about it, but now I feel encouraged again.

So thanks for the really helpful clarification Laughing

Edited by Pipps 2011-07-25 3:55 PM


2011-07-25 4:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
i think the accuracy comes into play when you change power meters.  i want my FTP to be the same accross all.  if i manage to ride at 290 on a pt and i come in 297 on a quarq no biggie.  if i was using kk and came in at 330, well than it would be something else....
2011-07-25 4:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...

trix - 2011-07-25 5:08 PM i think the accuracy comes into play when you change power meters.  i want my FTP to be the same accross all.  if i manage to ride at 290 on a pt and i come in 297 on a quarq no biggie.  if i was using kk and came in at 330, well than it would be something else....

 

yeah.. I'd quit riding the Powertap and Quarq and post more on Slowtwitch



Edited by Leegoocrap 2011-07-25 4:12 PM
2011-07-25 4:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...

OK, this is really cool.  I wasn't thinking I could get a power setup until next year (budget wise).  So, if I'm reading you guys right I can spend $70 (wired version) and strap this thing on my Kinetic trainer and do some meaningful power training?

Obviously it's not as good as the real thing, but I'm thinking this is better than no power.

2011-07-25 5:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
Leegoocrap - 2011-07-25 4:12 PM

trix - 2011-07-25 5:08 PM i think the accuracy comes into play when you change power meters.  i want my FTP to be the same accross all.  if i manage to ride at 290 on a pt and i come in 297 on a quarq no biggie.  if i was using kk and came in at 330, well than it would be something else....

 

yeah.. I'd quit riding the Powertap and Quarq and post more on Slowtwitch

no worries chris this is just for demonstration...but yes i would probably be asking how i can go from cat5 to cat1 rider....

2011-07-25 6:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
trix - 2011-07-25 6:17 PM

no worries chris this is just for demonstration...but yes i would probably be asking how i can go from cat5 to cat1 rider....

I don't think you're going to have to worry about Cat'ing up pretty fast. There's probably plenty of guys cussing you behind your back for "sandbagging" already!



2011-07-25 6:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
tuwood - 2011-07-25 5:15 PM

OK, this is really cool.  I wasn't thinking I could get a power setup until next year (budget wise).  So, if I'm reading you guys right I can spend $70 (wired version) and strap this thing on my Kinetic trainer and do some meaningful power training?

Obviously it's not as good as the real thing, but I'm thinking this is better than no power.

Or you just use a CPU with a rear wheel speedo pickup and can use the MPH to Watts conversion in a spreadsheet. This is how I do it as the older KK power meter was a POS and just used my CPU.  You do the 20 min & 3 (or 5) min tests and get the average mph for each.  Next you need to cross reference the avg mph's for the average wattage's, input the values into the spreadsheet and the Critical Power is calculated.  Also the training wattage percentages are crossed to mph for the respective workouts. 

More info related to Jorge's awesome cycling program can be found here (BT thread) and here (Jorge's website). The full spreadsheet for determining the watts from mph calc and also the Critical Power can be found here (Jorge's website) (look for the text "download this" in the paragraph under the red text sentence). 

2011-07-25 8:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
Donto - 2011-07-25 6:19 PM
tuwood - 2011-07-25 5:15 PM

OK, this is really cool.  I wasn't thinking I could get a power setup until next year (budget wise).  So, if I'm reading you guys right I can spend $70 (wired version) and strap this thing on my Kinetic trainer and do some meaningful power training?

Obviously it's not as good as the real thing, but I'm thinking this is better than no power.

Or you just use a CPU with a rear wheel speedo pickup and can use the MPH to Watts conversion in a spreadsheet. This is how I do it as the older KK power meter was a POS and just used my CPU.  You do the 20 min & 3 (or 5) min tests and get the average mph for each.  Next you need to cross reference the avg mph's for the average wattage's, input the values into the spreadsheet and the Critical Power is calculated.  Also the training wattage percentages are crossed to mph for the respective workouts. 

More info related to Jorge's awesome cycling program can be found here (BT thread) and here (Jorge's website). The full spreadsheet for determining the watts from mph calc and also the Critical Power can be found here (Jorge's website) (look for the text "download this" in the paragraph under the red text sentence). 

Thanks Don, I'll check this out.  I have really been wanting to train with power & my bike does have a rear speedo. I'm putting on the geek hat.

2011-07-25 8:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...

A key detail that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread is that the speed-to-watts conversion formula that KK uses presupposes that you have set the rear wheel tension for a coast-down time of ~13.8 seconds from 20 mph. The KK power meter is just a speedometer with the KK formula built in. It can't calibrate your unit for you. Cheaper than buying the KK power meter is to use your regular bike computer for speed, and to plug the KK formula into a spreadsheet. 

As others have said, it's the consistency that matters most, not the raw wattage numbers.

2011-07-25 10:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Using the Kurt Kinetics "power meter"...
colinphillips - 2011-07-26 9:49 AM

A key detail that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread is that the speed-to-watts conversion formula that KK uses presupposes that you have set the rear wheel tension for a coast-down time of ~13.8 seconds from 20 mph. The KK power meter is just a speedometer with the KK formula built in. It can't calibrate your unit for you. Cheaper than buying the KK power meter is to use your regular bike computer for speed, and to plug the KK formula into a spreadsheet. 

As others have said, it's the consistency that matters most, not the raw wattage numbers.

 

X2  I just made out a note card with power at different speeds and use that for the training.  After the workout you can compare power at different laps to see the average power.  Very easy and it is free. 

 

 

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