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2010-07-20 12:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
chili0552 - 2010-07-20 6:05 AM
 a lot of interesting points of view, however I believe there is one thing missing that nobody is talking about
  
   The time gap at the crest of Port De Bales between AC and Andy was 13 seconds. Andy is not the best descender and at the finish at the bottom he  gave up 26 more seconds and loss the jersey. I think AC did act unsportsmanlike but you cannot say AC got the jersey because of the dropped chain, but rather Andy lost it on the way down.

 

 


Although if they had reached the summit together he would have theoretically lost only 13 seconds and therefore still have been in yellow...

Then again... who knows what would have happened!

I think I might finish up with the attitude its happened, cant change it...


2010-07-20 12:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
Seems I am not the only one who thinks that Contador only needs to mark Schleck: http://thearmchairsportsfan.wordpress.com/2010/07/18/pyrenees-preview-can-anyone-catch-schleck-and-contador/
2010-07-20 1:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
This whole event makes me think of last September in Spain:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/09/news/evans-puncture-probably...

That case was even worse than yesterday.
2010-07-20 5:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
Andy basically descended, alone.

Are you guys really saying that AS would have lost time to AC....even if he'd been in that group with AC and Sanchez (with no dropped chain, that's the WORST case scenario)?

I don't think so.
2010-07-20 7:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
And don't forget to do your math properly. Andy reached the summit 13 seconds after Alberto, giving AC and his group 13 seconds of going at least twice as fast as Andy. By the time Andy starts the decent he is 20+ seconds back.
2010-07-20 7:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
kaqphin - 2010-07-20 12:35 AM
However.... I think we have seen often enough that Contador is one of the riders who doesnt really follow many of the old skool 'gentlemen s' agreement type stuff....
Can you provide examples about this? Please don't use any silly ones from last year TdF or the so called "attack" on Vino. By the way, wasn't AC who slowed down his entire team to wait for AS at Spa stage?


Edited by JorgeM 2010-07-20 8:08 AM


2010-07-20 8:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
or the so called "attack" on Vino

Jorge:

I'm sincerely interested in your take on how to describe what went down, last year.  Honest inquiry.  here in the states....we get what we're spoon-fed from the media!

Thank you.

jeff

Edited by nc452010 2010-07-20 8:16 AM
2010-07-20 8:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
nc452010 - 2010-07-20 8:16 AM or the so called "attack" on Vino

Jorge:

I'm sincerely interested in your take on how to describe what went down, last year.  Honest inquiry.  here in the states....we get what we're spoon-fed from the media!

Thank you.

jeff


Cycling is a team sport, you need the support of a team to put you in a position to win, but also, specially at grand tours, team contenders are only working for one person; the team's leader. In this case for Astana that's AC and the individuals success has to be put aside for the main objective, to win the race. While, it was a shame Vino got caught when AC saw a chance to put time on AS, it is also certain that is much more important than Vino winning the stage no matter how unfair and cold that might seem.

On that day AC, saw a weakness on AS and exploited though he followed the Rodriguez attack who most likely would have caught and passed Vino. Still imagine if AC and Rodriguez doesn't catch Vino until the summit and then all 3 can work together to put more time on AS and Vino even wins the stage? Then AC would have been smart and a great teammate. I think it is easy for us fans to make our opinions while sitting in the comfort or a couch/chair, a cool head and with the benefits of many TV shots, replay, etc.

Riders don't have that and have to make decisions on the spot. That day, I *think* AC knew Vino was ahead by 'x' seconds but he had to make a decision in a split second to respond to the attack when he saw AS was in trouble. Though when he did, he couldn't possibly guess for certain whether he would catch Vino before the summit, at the summit, on the descend or not at all. He just follow Sanchez and went with it, once they caught Vino the race was on and he had to take as much time as possible on AS whether that mean dropping his teammate.

What I read on Spanish, French and Dutch media suggested it was the right move for a GC contender. Even Vino who was dissapointed neither of them won, said the same, that the 10 seconds on AS were more important than a stage victory.

With what happened yesterday, I get the same general sentiment; it was a tough call but not one it can be villainize 100%. Many current and former tour riders including legends and team directors are undecided, some said AC should have waited. some said wait for to what extent, others even questioned why AC should wait when AS didn't on the pave at stage 3 and finally some suggest a dropped chain is hardly a mechanical incident one should slow down when the race is on and AC is responding to AS attack. Specially when Menchov and Sanchez are there.

I said I think AC should have waited and I hope he would have done so because then he could have shown he was the best rider as I think he is mano a mano. I think AC wants to win under fair conditions hence he did the video apologizing to AS. I think AS has a right to be upset, but also, he bears great responsibility and has to be accountable re: the dropped chain and the fact it took him so long to get it back on. Saxo decided to push the pace so hard AS ended up alone, so their tactics also deserve scrutiny IMO.

I am vocal re: AC not only because I am fan (though I am also fan of LA, AS, Fabian, Basso, Cavendish, Thor, and many more) but also because I think the US media benefits on portraying AC as the evil guy (good for ratings, cause polemic to drive traffic to their sites, etc) and some LA fans dislike AC because last year he won despite LA best efforts.

In the end, different opinions are good and what makes us fans more passionate about the sport. I for one I am enjoying very much the tour and if the peloton decides AC should have waited and attack Astana when they see a chance I am ok with that. If they don't do anything against Astana and AC then it seems to be they decided it wasn't as bad as we all have discussed over the past 24hrs.

If AC wins by over 40 seconds, I think the attack on yesterday stage will be a moot point and if he wins by less it might leave a sour taste in his mouth, same as AS and others. I do know those two are very talented and young riders and we should have great battles on year to come.

Edited by JorgeM 2010-07-20 8:48 AM
2010-07-20 9:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
I'm a cycling (fan and participant) noob.  IMO, it would go a long ways towards settling this debate.....if someone would clearly define whether dropping a chain is truly a mechanical or not.

jeff

Also my opinion.....You're either a participant in the honor and sportsmanship AS DEFINED BY YOUR FELLOW COMPETITORS....or, you're not.  Seems AC needs to make a distinction as to whether or not he's a tour "player" or, a rogue.  Just tell us which it is, and live with it (and, act accordingly).

Thanks, Jorge.
2010-07-20 9:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
cythim - 2010-07-20 6:06 AM And don't forget to do your math properly. Andy reached the summit 13 seconds after Alberto, giving AC and his group 13 seconds of going at least twice as fast as Andy. By the time Andy starts the decent he is 20+ seconds back.


Doesn't work that way. Time is time. Just because you cover more distance does not mean the time also increases, just the speed. It still takes AS the same time to cover the same distance as AC did on the other side.
2010-07-20 9:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
 It still takes AS the same time to cover the same distance as AC did on the other side.

Again, I don't see it this way.  Are you saying that Andy would have descended slower than AC.....if he was in the same group AC was in at the summit (with Sanchez and Menchov), instead of basically descending, alone?


2010-07-20 9:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
nc452010 - 2010-07-20 8:12 AM  It still takes AS the same time to cover the same distance as AC did on the other side.

Again, I don't see it this way.  Are you saying that Andy would have descended slower than AC.....if he was in the same group AC was in at the summit (with Sanchez and Menchov), instead of basically descending, alone?


No, not what I wrote. I am responding to the OP assumption that since AC started the decent :13 sooner that it somehow expanded to :20 since AC was going down the other side while AS was still accending. Do not just pick out this one  sentence and take it as the whole decent, I am talking just that first :13 of decent that AC made. Are you saying it took AS :20 to do the same distance.

Edited by gerald12 2010-07-20 9:28 AM
2010-07-20 9:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
 I am talking just that first :13 of decent that AC made. Are you saying it took AS :20 to do the same distance.

Well, time is time.  It doesn't lie.  Obviously, it took AS longer to descend than AC.  The question is "why?".  Unless you think AC is a better descender, other factors come into play (like - who each was descending WITH).
2010-07-20 9:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
nc452010 - 2010-07-20 11:50 AM

Well, time is time.  It doesn't lie.  Obviously, it took AS longer to descend than AC.  The question is "why?".  Unless you think AC is a better descender, other factors come into play (like - who each was descending WITH).


The group that each was with descending had nothing to do with the time they got to the summit.  AS was 13 seconds back at the summit and then lost time on the descent because he was driving the descent himself while AC was with a group that was working the descent.

Gerald was simply pointing out that the fact that AC had already gone over the summit (13 seconds ahead) doesn't somehow magically give him extra time when AS reached the summit. 

Shane
2010-07-20 10:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
nc452010 - 2010-07-20 9:01 AM I'm a cycling (fan and participant) noob.  IMO, it would go a long ways towards settling this debate.....if someone would clearly define whether dropping a chain is truly a mechanical or not.

jeff

Also my opinion.....You're either a participant in the honor and sportsmanship AS DEFINED BY YOUR FELLOW COMPETITORS....or, you're not.  Seems AC needs to make a distinction as to whether or not he's a tour "player" or, a rogue.  Just tell us which it is, and live with it (and, act accordingly).

Thanks, Jorge.


That's the problem, this 'code' of honor is not set in stone and it is open for interpretation, to be applied depending on the situation and the timing something happens in a race. It is clear to me given so many debated and different opinions among riders and team directors. Sometimes the group presses on and the agreement is that it was the right thing to do, i.e. stage 3, TdF 1999, etc. Some other times a group press on and it is seen as not the right thing to do. If the code was so black or white we wouldn't have so much debate re: yesterday stage for instance.

Whether AC is a tour player or not, I think he is. Prior last year he never had a problem in team discovery and was regarded as a young very talented rider and generally liked by teammates and opponents. That changed IMO because many LA fans felt for the media and LA tactics portraying AC as not a nice guy when he seemingly rebelled against LA and refusing to be pushed around and to be dropped as the team's leader when 1) it was clear he was the strongest rider in the team, 2) LA initially announced he was coming back to support AC and promote awareness for live strong and 3) not even his teammates where giving him full support.

He did what he needed to do to establish he was the team leader and it was against LA wishes and LA smartly (or one could argue deceivingly) used his star status and fan base to portray AC as a non-team player and rally fans against him when as I said, in the previous years in Discovery, no one had a bad thing to say about AC but the opposite.

If I was AC I would slow down at the end of today's stage and concede at least 10 sec to AS to get him back the YJ back. AS gained around 40 sec on AC benefiting from the incident on stage 3 and by rightly attacking him winning 10 seconds. AC fought back getting those 10 seconds and gained 40 sec by benefiting on AS incident yesterday. I know it won't happened but at least that would set them fair and even to battle it all out the last climb and the TT and let the best rider win. Damn, that would be fun to watch!
2010-07-20 3:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
nc452010 - 2010-07-20 7:12 AM  It still takes AS the same time to cover the same distance as AC did on the other side.

Again, I don't see it this way.  Are you saying that Andy would have descended slower than AC.....if he was in the same group AC was in at the summit (with Sanchez and Menchov), instead of basically descending, alone?


No, but the concept that going over the top earlier than your opponent gives you extra time doesn't hold. Yeah, AC is descending and gaining time/speed, but when they get to the bottom and AC starts slowing down, AS is still descending and "making up" that lost time.

Same kind of a concept as in triathlon. When someone gets out of the water 2 minutes ahead, they are on their bike and speeding away while person #2 is still slogging along in the water. But, when person #1 gets back to T2, they are slogging on the run while person #2 is on the bike going faster.

It might appear that person #1 has an advantage, such as being 2:30 ahead on the bike course, since they "gained" that extra 30 seconds of bike speed over swim speed, but if transitions and the bike are exactly equal, person #2 will still start the run 2:00 behind person #1.

John

Edited by tkd.teacher 2010-07-20 3:24 PM


2010-07-24 11:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
gerald12 - 2010-07-19 10:15 PM
uclamatt2007 - 2010-07-19 10:48 PM
gerald12 - 2010-07-19 9:25 PM
mkarr0110 - 2010-07-19 9:34 PM
nc452010 - 2010-07-19 10:19 PM

I'm a total noob.  But, I have to ask....

How can the peleton straighten this out.....assuming they want to?

BTW.....AC apparently thinks he did something wrong.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdOJLuePexs&playnext_from=TL&videos=Sp-Y-C4T6Z8&feature=sub



they could offer no help to astana who is required to chase now since they have the MJ. no1 will take a turn in front of AC to go up to attacks on the road. Alot of riders might attack to force his team to respond to tire them out. You could attack when he goes pee or goes through the feed zone. I see Caisse and possibly Rabo helping him out anyway as they were involved especially caisse as hes spanish and they dont care about team colors


What can the peleton really do? Most riders will be off the back when the attacks occur. All Contador has to do is mark Schleck, which is not easy to do, but at this point that basically is all he needs to do. Schleck has more to lose since he can not TT like the others. If Sanchez or Menchov attack, Schleck has to respond or he is going to move down on GC and Contador just has to follow. Contador has 2 minutes to play with, Schleck can not afford that.

AS has two more chances to put signifant time into AC, if he does not get close to 3 minutes before that TT then the fat lady is going to start warming up. 

Oh yes, and tomorrows stage is going to be hard for AS to put time on AC with that downhill finish so it pretty much boils down to stage 17.


Ask Cadel Evans how that worked out for him in 2008.


I guess we are going to find out in the next few days. Cadel Evans is not in the same class as Contador.


Shleck lost 39 seconds on stage 15

Contador gained 31 seconds today.

Seems like it would have worked out a lot like it did for Cadel Evans.

On a side note, how great would it have been to see the closest tour finish ever instead of watching the tour be won on a dropped chain.
2010-07-24 12:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Stage 15 *spoilers*
uclamatt2007 - 2010-07-24 10:42 AM
gerald12 - 2010-07-19 10:15 PM
uclamatt2007 - 2010-07-19 10:48 PM
gerald12 - 2010-07-19 9:25 PM
mkarr0110 - 2010-07-19 9:34 PM
nc452010 - 2010-07-19 10:19 PM

I'm a total noob.  But, I have to ask....

How can the peleton straighten this out.....assuming they want to?

BTW.....AC apparently thinks he did something wrong.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdOJLuePexs&playnext_from=TL&videos=Sp-Y-C4T6Z8&feature=sub



they could offer no help to astana who is required to chase now since they have the MJ. no1 will take a turn in front of AC to go up to attacks on the road. Alot of riders might attack to force his team to respond to tire them out. You could attack when he goes pee or goes through the feed zone. I see Caisse and possibly Rabo helping him out anyway as they were involved especially caisse as hes spanish and they dont care about team colors


What can the peleton really do? Most riders will be off the back when the attacks occur. All Contador has to do is mark Schleck, which is not easy to do, but at this point that basically is all he needs to do. Schleck has more to lose since he can not TT like the others. If Sanchez or Menchov attack, Schleck has to respond or he is going to move down on GC and Contador just has to follow. Contador has 2 minutes to play with, Schleck can not afford that.

AS has two more chances to put signifant time into AC, if he does not get close to 3 minutes before that TT then the fat lady is going to start warming up. 

Oh yes, and tomorrows stage is going to be hard for AS to put time on AC with that downhill finish so it pretty much boils down to stage 17.


Ask Cadel Evans how that worked out for him in 2008.


I guess we are going to find out in the next few days. Cadel Evans is not in the same class as Contador.


Shleck lost 39 seconds on stage 15

Contador gained 31 seconds today.

Seems like it would have worked out a lot like it did for Cadel Evans.

On a side note, how great would it have been to see the closest tour finish ever instead of watching the tour be won on a dropped chain.


But it didn't.
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