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2010-10-05 6:05 AM
in reply to: #3124321

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Champion
7136
5000200010025
Knoxville area
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
I think the immediate concern that Mr. Luscan brings up is, If you aren't willing to grow the Zabriskie pron 'stache... maybe you should re-evaluate your TT prowess.


2010-10-05 6:09 AM
in reply to: #3132887

Subject: ...
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Edited by BrickLayer 2010-10-05 6:15 AM
2010-10-05 6:20 AM
in reply to: #3132988

Extreme Veteran
586
500252525
Richmond
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
"Meaning they stay within widely accepted hip angle ranges.  The window for hip angles to produce the best power is hugely effected by flexibility"

Yeah, you right. Widely accepted ranges, not wide ranges.  My bad.  I am going to leave my post as is though cause it's long and there is a lot that holds true regardless of my late night reading comprehension issue. Sorry to mis-quote you. 

I do agree with staying within those widely accepted ranges. I would still differ with the assertion that the ability to produce power within that range is hugely effected by flexibility. I would assert it is hardly effected by flexibility. Unless we are talking the mental variety.

2010-10-05 8:05 AM
in reply to: #3124321

Elite
3779
20001000500100100252525
Ontario
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
To jump off the original topic - but stay in line with the last couple of posts.  How flexible do you need to be to get more aero?

I feel like the most inflexible human being out there.  I can only touch 1/2 way down between my knees and toes, and am incapable of sitting cross legged (never been able to do this even as a kid).

So does your ability or inability to bend help or limit how aero you can go?
2010-10-05 8:05 AM
in reply to: #3131364

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race

NM - I think I misread your last post.

Bottom line, lower is generally faster but there are cases where a rider can have a very fast position with little drop.

Shane



Edited by gsmacleod 2010-10-05 8:19 AM
2010-10-05 9:18 AM
in reply to: #3133127

Extreme Veteran
586
500252525
Richmond
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
GoFaster - 2010-10-05 8:05 AM To jump off the original topic - but stay in line with the last couple of posts.  How flexible do you need to be to get more aero?

I feel like the most inflexible human being out there.  I can only touch 1/2 way down between my knees and toes, and am incapable of sitting cross legged (never been able to do this even as a kid).

So does your ability or inability to bend help or limit how aero you can go?


I can touch a little further down then you. About the top of my foot is my limit.  I have zero flexibility issues to be able to ride the position in my avatar pic. It is simply not an issue. My neck on the other hand...well that is not really a flexibility issue.

I will stand by my assertion that if you can comfortably touch your knees, you can ride as low as any bike is designed. You can ride a world class position. Just not with world class power.  Don't confuse the chassis with the engine.

Two guys that would agree with me are the chief engineer of Cervelo bikes and the brain behind the FIST system.  Actually, my assertion is really their assertion.


2010-10-05 9:51 AM
in reply to: #3124321

Elite
3779
20001000500100100252525
Ontario
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race

A followup question - which is more about fit.  Assuming you get lower, and stay within the accepted guidelines for hip angle and so forth, do you have to worry about affecting your power output?

I wonder how you properly analyze your fit, since it's done on a trainer.  I've found I'm perfectly happy in my aero position on the road, but not very comfortable on a trainer.  Does it just become a matter of trial and error?

2010-10-05 10:51 AM
in reply to: #3124321

Elite
3315
20001000100100100
Miami
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
bottom line is when I get my new transition pro....i need to have them remove all my spacers.

this should yeild a much lower position on the bike and IF it lets me generate same power as now....250+w it should yield to much faster speeds.
2010-10-05 11:42 AM
in reply to: #3133429

Extreme Veteran
586
500252525
Richmond
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
GoFaster - 2010-10-05 9:51 AM

A followup question - which is more about fit.  Assuming you get lower, and stay within the accepted guidelines for hip angle and so forth, do you have to worry about affecting your power output?

I wonder how you properly analyze your fit, since it's done on a trainer.  I've found I'm perfectly happy in my aero position on the road, but not very comfortable on a trainer.  Does it just become a matter of trial and error?



Those accepted ranges for hip angles are accepted because somewhere in that range you should be riding pretty low with your power pretty much uneffected.  IOW, they are all about power preservation, given a bit of adaptation of course.

Usually on a trainer there not as much or any sitting up, moving around, taking breaks etc.  All of this can lead to the identical position on a trainer being less comfortable. 
2010-10-05 12:19 PM
in reply to: #3133735

Champion
9060
5000200020002525
Charlottesville, Virginia
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
Dave Luscan - 2010-10-05 12:42 PM
GoFaster - 2010-10-05 9:51 AM

A followup question - which is more about fit.  Assuming you get lower, and stay within the accepted guidelines for hip angle and so forth, do you have to worry about affecting your power output?

I wonder how you properly analyze your fit, since it's done on a trainer.  I've found I'm perfectly happy in my aero position on the road, but not very comfortable on a trainer.  Does it just become a matter of trial and error?



Those accepted ranges for hip angles are accepted because somewhere in that range you should be riding pretty low with your power pretty much uneffected.  IOW, they are all about power preservation, given a bit of adaptation of course.

Usually on a trainer there not as much or any sitting up, moving around, taking breaks etc.  All of this can lead to the identical position on a trainer being less comfortable. 


Dave I went through this with 2 fits, one prior to my current coach and with my coach,  and both determined that I just wasn't flexible enough to get into a ST approved position. 

I disagreed and took some spacers out and made minor adjustments to get myself at the appropriate angles and my back paid for it during a 40k TT.  I put the spacers back and haven't had a problem since.  We do adjust it a bit for differing distances, I can hold it for a sprint but not much longer.

I can reach about mid way down my shins and that's it, pretty bad.  Been trying to work with it to get a bit more flexible and I think my core muscles are pretty good so I don't think that's to blame.

So what am I doing wrong, I am not looking to feel like I am riding on a comfy couch but even for an Olympic distance getting that low puts me in extreme pain. 

Edit: given I know I am not in the best position possible I still do everything I can to get my bike faster, all the aero goodness + low CRR tires + latex tubes, clean and well maintained drive train, etc.

Edited by dalessit 2010-10-05 12:21 PM
2010-10-05 12:59 PM
in reply to: #3133840

Extreme Veteran
586
500252525
Richmond
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
I would love to see a picture of your current position as well as take a measurement of your hip angle in that position.

Hard to say what might be wrong based on your description. Not being able to touch your toesis more of a hamstring issue whereas back pain during a race can be more of an adaptation issue. How long/how much riding did you do before putting the spacers back in?



2010-10-05 3:01 PM
in reply to: #3124321

Veteran
186
100252525
Saint Simons Island, GA
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
The single best thing you can do to make your bike faster is to paint flames on the frame.  
2010-10-05 4:12 PM
in reply to: #3134240

Elite
3315
20001000100100100
Miami
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
gwmeader - 2010-10-05 3:01 PM The single best thing you can do to make your bike faster is to paint flames on the frame.  


i would love to have a wing in the back...fast and furious style but i am being told its not aero...Sealed
2010-10-05 4:21 PM
in reply to: #3124321

Expert
2852
20005001001001002525
Pfafftown, NC
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
Trix:

You may have said, earlier.  But, are you planning on taking everything you'll need with you (not relying on aid stations)?

In my head, that's what I'd rather do.  Right now, I have no idea what I'll need for that ride.....and to prepare for the run.  I'm planning (again, in my head) to do it all on gels and diluted G2.  Now, I just need to get a bento or something to carry gels in (I guess).
2010-10-05 4:22 PM
in reply to: #3134464

Master
2356
20001001001002525
Westlake Village , Ca.
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
trix - 2010-10-05 2:12 PM
gwmeader - 2010-10-05 3:01 PM The single best thing you can do to make your bike faster is to paint flames on the frame.  


i would love to have a wing in the back...fast and furious style but i am being told its not aero...Sealed


Well...it would provide down force....just a lot of drag too Wink
2010-10-05 5:50 PM
in reply to: #3134496

Champion
7136
5000200010025
Knoxville area
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
Fastyellow - 2010-10-05 5:22 PM
trix - 2010-10-05 2:12 PM
gwmeader - 2010-10-05 3:01 PM The single best thing you can do to make your bike faster is to paint flames on the frame.  


i would love to have a wing in the back...fast and furious style but i am being told its not aero...Sealed


Well...it would provide down force....just a lot of drag too Wink


You know, speaking of that, the idea of adding downforce to the rear end of a front wheel drive civic was always lost on me...

I think the "gangster" thing to do is get some spinnin' rimz.


2010-10-05 5:53 PM
in reply to: #3134623

Master
2356
20001001001002525
Westlake Village , Ca.
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
Leegoocrap - 2010-10-05 3:50 PM
Fastyellow - 2010-10-05 5:22 PM
trix - 2010-10-05 2:12 PM
gwmeader - 2010-10-05 3:01 PM The single best thing you can do to make your bike faster is to paint flames on the frame.  


i would love to have a wing in the back...fast and furious style but i am being told its not aero...Sealed


Well...it would provide down force....just a lot of drag too Wink


You know, speaking of that, the idea of adding downforce to the rear end of a front wheel drive civic was always lost on me...

I think the "gangster" thing to do is get some spinnin' rimz.


This is actually what you do.....

2010-10-05 7:07 PM
in reply to: #3124321

Elite
3315
20001000100100100
Miami
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
this thread is epic....

and yes i am planning to live off the course....i might end up trying to just tape everything under the seat. 
2010-10-05 7:08 PM
in reply to: #3124321

Champion
7136
5000200010025
Knoxville area
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
well that makes sense.
2010-10-05 7:08 PM
in reply to: #3133964

Elite
3315
20001000100100100
Miami
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
Dave Luscan - 2010-10-05 12:59 PM I would love to see a picture of your current position as well as take a measurement of your hip angle in that position.

Hard to say what might be wrong based on your description. Not being able to touch your toesis more of a hamstring issue whereas back pain during a race can be more of an adaptation issue. How long/how much riding did you do before putting the spacers back in?



can i send you my pic..for some analysis....
2010-10-06 7:20 AM
in reply to: #3124321

Elite
3315
20001000100100100
Miami
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
how is this for a position....this is emma pooley winning uci road world championships...all i have to say god damn!





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2010-10-06 10:23 AM
in reply to: #3124321

Champion
7136
5000200010025
Knoxville area
Subject: RE: making my bike aero for 70.3 race
he can actually just re-route the water at will... so there is no need for the dam
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