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Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon (Page 4)
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 2010-09-30 1:06 PM in reply to: #3126143 |
Sneaky Slow  8694       Herndon, VA, |  Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half MarathonMarvarnett - 2010-09-30 1:30 PM tealeaf - 2010-09-30 1:04 PM Marvarnett - 2010-09-30 11:42 AM Show me a study that compares the amount of time at the job, time taken off (for whatever reason) vs pay and THEN considers the sex. I'm pretty sure that the whole 81 cents on the dollar thing will be debunked fairly quickly. Um, ok. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0435.pdf This PDF has some summary Power Point slides at the beginning that summarize the statistical analysis performed, and one bullet on the summary page reads, "After accounting for all factors that affect income, women earned an average of 80 percent what men earned in 2000." Oh, wait. You were right. It *did* debunk the 81 cents on the dollar thing. This study came out with 80 cents. Good call. Nice try. That is unless you only want to read one part of the study. Oh...you mean the part about " For example some experts said that some women trade off career advancement or higher earnings for a job that offers flexability to manage work and family responsibilities" AND "due to the limitations in this survey we cannot determine whether this remaining difference is due to discrimination or other factors that may affect earnings" "I'm pretty sure the whole 81 cents on the dollar thing will be debunked fairly quickly." Well, this study compared the things you mentioned, and I think it's fair to say that it did not debunk the whole thing fairly quickly. Or at all. It's also fair to say that it's not necessarily all discrimination which causes the gap. The study didn't prove that, either. But before folks go spouting off that they're pretty sure it is discrimination, or they are pretty sure it isn't discrimination, they ought to at least do a little cursory research. Whichever side they fall on. I don't know what the truth is. I suspect it is somewhere in the middle. It typically is. |
| 2010-09-30 1:09 PM in reply to: #3126221 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon r1237h - 2010-10-01 2:01 AM
A question for you, regarding equality: Should the physical requirements and testing for a firefighter or a combat soldier, be the same for both sexes? Or should the woman have an easier test? I know this wasn't for me, but I'm going to bite! There are a few factors to consider (is the test truly correlative to the levels and types of ability needed for the position, for example), but all those being fair and considered: Then YES. Unequivocally YES. This would be in the same vein as allowing a disabled person to be a paramedic--if the person's disability(ies) do not impede normal occupational function, fine. But such persons will pass the same tests as everybody else. |
| 2010-09-30 1:15 PM in reply to: #3126234 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon tealeaf - 2010-10-01 2:06 AM Marvarnett - 2010-09-30 1:30 PM tealeaf - 2010-09-30 1:04 PM Marvarnett - 2010-09-30 11:42 AM Show me a study that compares the amount of time at the job, time taken off (for whatever reason) vs pay and THEN considers the sex. I'm pretty sure that the whole 81 cents on the dollar thing will be debunked fairly quickly. Um, ok. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0435.pdf This PDF has some summary Power Point slides at the beginning that summarize the statistical analysis performed, and one bullet on the summary page reads, "After accounting for all factors that affect income, women earned an average of 80 percent what men earned in 2000." Oh, wait. You were right. It *did* debunk the 81 cents on the dollar thing. This study came out with 80 cents. Good call. Nice try. That is unless you only want to read one part of the study. Oh...you mean the part about " For example some experts said that some women trade off career advancement or higher earnings for a job that offers flexability to manage work and family responsibilities" AND "due to the limitations in this survey we cannot determine whether this remaining difference is due to discrimination or other factors that may affect earnings" "I'm pretty sure the whole 81 cents on the dollar thing will be debunked fairly quickly." Well, this study compared the things you mentioned, and I think it's fair to say that it did not debunk the whole thing fairly quickly. Or at all. It's also fair to say that it's not necessarily all discrimination which causes the gap. The study didn't prove that, either. But before folks go spouting off that they're pretty sure it is discrimination, or they are pretty sure it isn't discrimination, they ought to at least do a little cursory research. Whichever side they fall on. I don't know what the truth is. I suspect it is somewhere in the middle. It typically is. That would still mean 90 cents on the dollar ...  A crude estimate. Nevertheless ... and I assure all of you I'm too lazy to search for this, especially on a glacially slow Internet connection powered by squirrels, there was some interesting research done on candidates for entry-level positions, showing that the pay inequity already began there ... Even for entry-level positions, men were (far) more likely to negotiate for better pay, or pay at the top of the range posted, and as a result, were at least sometimes granted it. Women, for not bringing it up or simply accepting what was offered, already entered similar working positions at lower pay. WHY this is, is a whole different debate (feel free, though!) ... But that also goes to show it's not discrimination IN THAT CONTEXT that led to the pay differentials. |
| 2010-09-30 1:18 PM in reply to: #3126206 |
Extreme Veteran 751 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon briderdt - 2010-09-30 1:52 PM A bit unrelated... But maybe there are some connections. Several years ago (okay, about 12), I did the Susan G Komen Race for the Cure in Seattle. It has a women's-only competetive 5K run, and a "non-competetive" 5K run/walk that is open to both genders. Obviously, this event is geared towards women. Because it's all about breast cancer. So after the race, they were gathering up all the breast cancer survivors in an area. And there were about 4 men in there. Yup, men can get breast cancer also. But the attitude expressed towards these men... They almost got lynched by these "nice women" surrounding them. Couldn't believe it. Ouch. Sad. Probably ignorance more than meanness. |
| 2010-09-30 1:18 PM in reply to: #3126054 |
Veteran 667 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon r1237h - 2010-09-30 11:59 AM Johners - 2010-09-30 9:31 AM I find it fairly reprehensible for a man to enter a race designed for women in order to satisfy some basic need to 'win' or at least perceive themselves as competing at a higher level. I'm not being sexist, I'm drawing this from the article: [Q]Although men are loath to admit it, one appeal women's races have for them is the shot at a better finish. Men who ran in the middle of a pack of guys can finish near the top of a field teeming with women.[/Q] You seem to have missed these quotes: [Q]Brook Gardner, an Oregon sports journalist, went to San Francisco last year to cover the race, and at the urging of Nike officials agreed to run it[/Q] [Q]Some men run at the behest of girlfriends and wives[/Q][Q]He ran it, he says, because his wife, coach of a Nike running club, encouraged him.[/Q] So we divide these sports up, so they're fair for the respective genders. But the point is that this is not allowed. Should it be? I didn't miss that from the article. They're specific examples of reasons, other than to 'just win a race' that may influence a man to enter a race. My point is that its distasteful for a man to enter a women's race primarily because he wants to place higher or even win. And, yes I think women should be able to have their own races that exclude men. Edited by Johners 2010-09-30 1:19 PM |
| 2010-09-30 1:24 PM in reply to: #3126268 |
Veteran 698 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon Johners - 2010-09-30 11:18 AM And, yes I think women should be able to have their own races that exclude men. And should men be able to have their own races that exclude women? |
| 2010-09-30 1:30 PM in reply to: #3126221 |
Expert 1002 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon r1237h - 2010-09-30 1:01 PM Cute. What you lack in logic, you more then make up for in diplomacy.
You might want to ask for a refund for your logical thinking class. You might want to frame your arguments without condescending remarks or backhanded compliments. I'll respond to your points when you back off the passive-aggressive BS and start debating the topic at hand like an adult.
Incidentally, in case you're wondering, I'm not offended by your remarks, just inflamed. They simply affect me to the point where I end up debating based on emotion instead of logic. I make a good chunk of change by taking that point from my philosophy/debate classes and applying it to the real world. I guess that might actually qualify as one heck of a refund for my critical thinking classes! |
| 2010-09-30 1:30 PM in reply to: #3126285 |
Veteran 667 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon I don't see why not. Though, generally, I think a persuasive argument is made when someone points out that absence of women in an all male race doesn't have as much of an impact in determining who wins as it does when you exclude men from an all female race. |
| 2010-09-30 1:32 PM in reply to: #3124913 |
Veteran 667 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon Hey guys, we can have a healthy debate without resorting to ad hominem attacks. People can have valid, but contrary opinions. |
| 2010-09-30 1:39 PM in reply to: #3126311 |
Veteran 698 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon Johners - 2010-09-30 11:32 AM Hey guys, we can have a healthy debate without resorting to ad hominem attacks. People can have valid, but contrary opinions. Apparently not. It seems that making assumptions, leaping to the wrong conclusion. making personal observations that are wrong is ok, as long as the person doing all this is not treated the same way. I guess the defense for discrimination is based on a personal need. |
| 2010-09-30 1:41 PM in reply to: #3126302 |
Veteran 698 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon UWMadTri - 2010-09-30 11:30 AM r1237h - 2010-09-30 1:01 PM Cute. What you lack in logic, you more then make up for in diplomacy.
You might want to ask for a refund for your logical thinking class. You might want to frame your arguments without condescending remarks or backhanded compliments. I'll respond to your points when you back off the passive-aggressive BS and start debating the topic at hand like an adult.
Incidentally, in case you're wondering, I'm not offended by your remarks, just inflamed. They simply affect me to the point where I end up debating based on emotion instead of logic. I make a good chunk of change by taking that point from my philosophy/debate classes and applying it to the real world. I guess that might actually qualify as one heck of a refund for my critical thinking classes! Ok sunshine, my apologies. You go on leaping the the wrong conclusions, making assumptions and personal observations that have nothing to do with reality, and I will simply say that you are right, no matter what you say. Happy now? |
| 2010-09-30 1:51 PM in reply to: #3126268 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon Johners - 2010-09-30 2:18 PM I didn't miss that from the article. They're specific examples of reasons, other than to 'just win a race' that may influence a man to enter a race. My point is that its distasteful for a man to enter a women's race primarily because he wants to place higher or even win. And, yes I think women should be able to have their own races that exclude men. So if I chose to do one IM race over another because I know the field is 'weaker' is that distasteful? People, men and women, podium shop all the time. It's no different if I chose a hilly course vs a flat course vs a small local race vs a 'female' specific or 'midget' specific race. |
| 2010-09-30 1:56 PM in reply to: #3126343 |
Expert 1002 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon r1237h - 2010-09-30 1:41 PM Ok sunshine, my apologies. You go on leaping the the wrong conclusions, making assumptions and personal observations that have nothing to do with reality, and I will simply say that you are right, no matter what you say. Happy now? I'm quite happy, although it has nothing to do with this thread. I just saved a whole bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico. In conclusion, I'll summarize my point: Men should not attempt to win races that are clearly designed only for women, since the only reason they're allowed to enter in the first place is because of a ridiculously litigious legal system and a conveniently politically correct society. Also, bananas. </end> |
| 2010-09-30 1:57 PM in reply to: #3126311 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon Johners - 2010-10-01 2:32 AM Hey guys, we can have a healthy debate without resorting to ad hominem attacks. People can have valid, but contrary opinions. x2. Really important. I fall into this as much as anyone sometimes--I try to frame my responses without the word "you." |
| 2010-09-30 2:01 PM in reply to: #3126406 |
Veteran 698 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon UWMadTri - 2010-09-30 11:56 AM r1237h - 2010-09-30 1:41 PM Ok sunshine, my apologies. You go on leaping the the wrong conclusions, making assumptions and personal observations that have nothing to do with reality, and I will simply say that you are right, no matter what you say. Happy now? I'm quite happy, although it has nothing to do with this thread. I just saved a whole bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico. In conclusion, I'll summarize my point: Men should not attempt to win races that are clearly designed only for women, since the only reason they're allowed to enter in the first place is because of a ridiculously litigious legal system and a conveniently politically correct society. Also, bananas. "you are right, no matter what you say" And congratulations on the insurance. And despite me not liking bannana's, you are, no doubt "right, no matter what you say" |
| 2010-09-30 2:04 PM in reply to: #3126387 |
Veteran 667 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon Marvarnett - 2010-09-30 1:51 PM Johners - 2010-09-30 2:18 PM I didn't miss that from the article. They're specific examples of reasons, other than to 'just win a race' that may influence a man to enter a race. My point is that its distasteful for a man to enter a women's race primarily because he wants to place higher or even win. And, yes I think women should be able to have their own races that exclude men. So if I chose to do one IM race over another because I know the field is 'weaker' is that distasteful? People, men and women, podium shop all the time. It's no different if I chose a hilly course vs a flat course vs a small local race vs a 'female' specific or 'midget' specific race. I don't think podium shopping for the most favorable integrated or gendered race is the same as a man choosing to attend women's race in hopes of placing. Choosing a race because it compliments your strengths is different from selecting a race because you seek to exploit another persons biological differences. The special Olympics are designed to accommodate athletes with various handicaps. I would expect a non-handicapped athlete seeking to participated simply because they wanted to medal would be met without approbation. Those athletes are tough competitors, too, and they worked hard to get there. Including someone who didn't have to overcome the same obstacles would be unfair. I hope it's obvious to anyone reading this that I'm not implying that women are disabled, but instead pointing out that the fundamental character of the competition is different when you select a venue because it's one that is best suited to your strength from when you make that selection based on the other participant's perceived weaknesses. |
| 2010-09-30 2:06 PM in reply to: #3124913 |
Extreme Veteran 424 Lockport, IL | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon If we're so concerned about gender equality, why isn't it called the Ironperson Championship? That was only slightly tongue-in-cheek. |
| 2010-09-30 2:06 PM in reply to: #3126440 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon Johners - 2010-10-01 3:04 AM The special Olympics are designed to accommodate athletes with various handicaps. I would expect a non-handicapped athlete seeking to participated simply because they wanted to medal would be met without approbation. Those athletes are tough competitors, too, and they worked hard to get there. Including someone who didn't have to overcome the same obstacles would be unfair. I hope it's obvious to anyone reading this that I'm not implying that women are disabled, but instead pointing out that the fundamental character of the competition is different when you select a venue because it's one that is best suited to your strength from when you make that selection based on the other participant's perceived weaknesses. I'll buy that analogy. I made a different analogy (regarding occupational qualifications) but used the same example of disabled persons. |
| 2010-09-30 2:31 PM in reply to: #3126450 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon TriAya - 2010-09-30 3:06 PM Johners - 2010-10-01 3:04 AM The special Olympics are designed to accommodate athletes with various handicaps. I would expect a non-handicapped athlete seeking to participated simply because they wanted to medal would be met without approbation. Those athletes are tough competitors, too, and they worked hard to get there. Including someone who didn't have to overcome the same obstacles would be unfair. I hope it's obvious to anyone reading this that I'm not implying that women are disabled, but instead pointing out that the fundamental character of the competition is different when you select a venue because it's one that is best suited to your strength from when you make that selection based on the other participant's perceived weaknesses. I'll buy that analogy. I made a different analogy (regarding occupational qualifications) but used the same example of disabled persons. I would go so far as to say if anyone could enter the special olympics, then anyone would and I would not begrude them for it. If it's allowed, be my guest. Yes Yes...I know...I have no feelings and I'm ok with that. I know plenty of people that look at the calibur of the sex field (usually woman actually) and decide which race to attend. So it's not the course layout that most people decide where to race, it's where the competition ISN'T. Note: this is coming from a guy that my arch nemesis is a girl named Jennifer Hanley-Pinto. She crushes me anytime we run. I asked her to pace me to a 3 hr mary and her response: "I don't think I can jog that slow" I heart her!! |
| 2010-09-30 2:35 PM in reply to: #3126517 |
Veteran 667 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon Note: this is coming from a guy that my arch nemesis is a girl named Jennifer Hanley-Pinto. She crushes me anytime we run. I asked her to pace me to a 3 hr mary and her response: "I don't think I can jog that slow" I heart her!! You and me both. Well, Not Jennifer - I don't know her. But I may be falling in love with a girl that habitually destroys me on runs and on swims - and she's mean about it! What does that say about me? Do I crave abuse? |
| 2010-09-30 2:40 PM in reply to: #3124913 |
Master 2477 Oceanside, California | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon I taught my daughter to snort and oink like a pig when she hears the word "princess!" She will be 2 in December.  Edited by eabeam 2010-09-30 2:41 PM |
| 2010-09-30 2:47 PM in reply to: #3126540 |
Champion 8540 the colony texas | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon I think this theard sould be remaned. "Try to follow the quotes" holy crap-ola. FWIW.. I agree with Renee's posts |
| 2010-09-30 2:58 PM in reply to: #3126427 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon r1237h - 2010-09-30 3:01 PM UWMadTri - 2010-09-30 11:56 AM r1237h - 2010-09-30 1:41 PM Ok sunshine, my apologies. You go on leaping the the wrong conclusions, making assumptions and personal observations that have nothing to do with reality, and I will simply say that you are right, no matter what you say. Happy now? I'm quite happy, although it has nothing to do with this thread. I just saved a whole bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico. In conclusion, I'll summarize my point: Men should not attempt to win races that are clearly designed only for women, since the only reason they're allowed to enter in the first place is because of a ridiculously litigious legal system and a conveniently politically correct society. Also, bananas. "you are right, no matter what you say" And congratulations on the insurance. And despite me not liking bannana's, you are, no doubt "right, no matter what you say" But bananas is wrong; it's beets. (Plus you misspelled bananas. Probably why you don't like them) |
| 2010-09-30 3:04 PM in reply to: #3126530 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon Johners - 2010-09-30 3:35 PM Note: this is coming from a guy that my arch nemesis is a girl named Jennifer Hanley-Pinto. She crushes me anytime we run. I asked her to pace me to a 3 hr mary and her response: "I don't think I can jog that slow" I heart her!! You and me both. Well, Not Jennifer - I don't know her. But I may be falling in love with a girl that habitually destroys me on runs and on swims - and she's mean about it! What does that say about me? Do I crave abuse? Embrace it...it's easier over the years. I have come to enjoy the abuse. And I thought LC tri's were my safe world until she blew out a 4:28 at Augusta last Sunday. 2 minutes from my PR...Damn her!!! |
| 2010-09-30 3:15 PM in reply to: #3126575 |
Veteran 698 | Subject: RE: Thoughts on man winning the Disney Princess Half Marathon mrbbrad - 2010-09-30 12:58 PM (Plus you misspelled bananas. Probably why you don't like them) Hmmm, now that I know the correct spelling, they suddenly seem to taste better! |
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