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2010-10-08 3:45 PM


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Subject: Running: How sore is TOO sore?

Occasionally, I'll do a hard interval workout on the track. Or maybe a long run with tough hills. By the time I get home I'm doing the "funny walk."  My calves & quads are sore, it's tough to stand up and/or move around, but not super painful.  Typically it doesn't go away for about 1-2 days. 

Is this normal?  Or, am I pushing too hard?

I've noticed that compression pants & cold baths reduce these symptoms by 50%. That said, should I push even harder if using these recovery techniques? 

I never know if I'm pushing as hard as I should be.

Thanks for any tips.



2010-10-08 3:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
I think you are not over doing it, I tend to have the similar story if i am going for long runs.
2010-10-08 4:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
Pushing too hard.

You are pushing too hard when a workout affects your following works. The fact that various aids reduce your soreness by 50% does NOT mean you should push even harder.

Why does everyone want to push things so much? You can't bake a cake faster by setting the oven temp to 500 degrees. All you end up with is burnt cake batter, and a lot of smoke. Running is the same.

You take your time, you spend most of that time doing easy effort work. That's your flour, your eggs, your butter.

When you get a bit out from your goal race, you start adding in the other stuff; maybe do some hill repeats, maybe some progression runs, maybe some tempo stuff. This is where you add the fancy stuff, like chocolate chips, or vanilla, or whatever. The type of workouts you do here depends on the type of race you want to do. A simple just go out and have fun...these are optional. Just like a no-frills cake.

Couple months from the race, you start doing the harder efforts. This is interval time. Chopped walnuts, meringue, that's what this stage is. Some people don't like walnuts, they skip 'em. I don't like intervals much, so I don't throw that many into the mix. Still a good cake.

Taper is baking. Right temp, right amount of time. Too much, you burn the cake. Too little, you end up with gooey cake. Burn yourself out by doing too much in taper, you aren't ready to race. Do too little, you end up feeling sluggish and lazy, like warm cookie dough, not a good finished cookie.

The race, that's icing. You done the work, now frost it.

Relax. Don't rush. Do it right, and the rewards are far better.
2010-10-08 4:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
mcstrangelove - 2010-10-08 3:45 PM

Occasionally, I'll do a hard interval workout on the track. Or maybe a long run with tough hills. By the time I get home I'm doing the "funny walk."  My calves & quads are sore, it's tough to stand up and/or move around, but not super painful.  Typically it doesn't go away for about 1-2 days. 

Is this normal?  Or, am I pushing too hard?

I've noticed that compression pants & cold baths reduce these symptoms by 50%. That said, should I push even harder if using these recovery techniques? 

I never know if I'm pushing as hard as I should be.

Thanks for any tips.

Well, first what are your intervals and how many miles are you covering a week?
2010-10-08 4:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
Scout7 - 2010-10-08 4:12 PM Pushing too hard. You are pushing too hard when a workout affects your following works. The fact that various aids reduce your soreness by 50% does NOT mean you should push even harder. Why does everyone want to push things so much? You can't bake a cake faster by setting the oven temp to 500 degrees. All you end up with is burnt cake batter, and a lot of smoke. Running is the same. You take your time, you spend most of that time doing easy effort work. That's your flour, your eggs, your butter. When you get a bit out from your goal race, you start adding in the other stuff; maybe do some hill repeats, maybe some progression runs, maybe some tempo stuff. This is where you add the fancy stuff, like chocolate chips, or vanilla, or whatever. The type of workouts you do here depends on the type of race you want to do. A simple just go out and have fun...these are optional. Just like a no-frills cake. Couple months from the race, you start doing the harder efforts. This is interval time. Chopped walnuts, meringue, that's what this stage is. Some people don't like walnuts, they skip 'em. I don't like intervals much, so I don't throw that many into the mix. Still a good cake. Taper is baking. Right temp, right amount of time. Too much, you burn the cake. Too little, you end up with gooey cake. Burn yourself out by doing too much in taper, you aren't ready to race. Do too little, you end up feeling sluggish and lazy, like warm cookie dough, not a good finished cookie. The race, that's icing. You done the work, now frost it. Relax. Don't rush. Do it right, and the rewards are far better.


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2010-10-08 4:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
I like the baking analogy.

Unfortunately, I subscribed to the long, slow runs for my marathon training a decade ago (NO thank you, Jeff Galloway) and all it did was make me a slow runner.  Two years ago a coach recommended a controversial idea:  no long runs, only speed work at threshold or higher pace. Plus hill sprints, track intervals and crosstraining on the bike and pool. Shorter workouts, but more workouts during the week.  Quality over quantity.  Never run at zone 1 or 2 unless warming up or cooling down.

6 months after trying this crazy routine, I had fewer days of soreness, no injuries and I had my fastest marathon time by 15 minutes.  A year later I had another PR.

So, yes.  There is merit to running fast and hard, every workout and avoiding the masses who say to run slow.  I just want to make sure I'm not crossing the line with it.


2010-10-08 4:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
Well, first what are your intervals and how many miles are you covering a week?
 
I've transitioned from tris to marathon training so my mileage has changed.  Currently I'm around 25-35 miles per week.  Intervals are mostly 800s and mile repeats.  Hills are usually 2-3 minutes, per repeat. Tempo runs are between 15-25 minutes.  All at threshold or higher pace.
2010-10-08 4:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
Don't forget to stretch after your crazy hard intervals!
2010-10-08 4:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
Well first thing is what I learned, and I could be mistaken, is that interval running is really vo2 max training. So the controlling factor isn't distance, but time. If I remember correctly it takes about 2 minutes maximal effort before you hit vo2 max range, so intervals should be between 3 to 5 minutes in length to be effective so that's one thing to consider. Threshold training is what you need to be doing to build endurance, but I think a lot of times folks forget threshold doesn't always mean the same speed. For example, your threshold speed running up hill or against the wind will be less than on a level surface. You may be over extending yourself. Some soreness is normal, but if it is interfering with your other training then you may be overlooking some other aspect in your conditioning program. It sounds like you're adding distance. I would probably just skip intervals and fartleks while I increased my weekly mileage to marathon length training then focus on speed once I had that endurance base, but that's just me.

Edited by Johners 2010-10-08 4:54 PM
2010-10-08 5:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
Don't forget to stretch after your crazy hard intervals!
Trust me!  Stretching takes up about half my workout time
2010-10-08 5:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
Ha!  Great cake baking analogy.

thumbs up for Scout.

(and I wish I knew this information last year, when I was busy hurting myself with way to much speed work and tempo runs)

Edited by morey000 2010-10-08 5:28 PM


2010-10-08 5:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
mcstrangelove - 2010-10-08 3:27 PM

I like the baking analogy.

Unfortunately, I subscribed to the long, slow runs for my marathon training a decade ago (NO thank you, Jeff Galloway) and all it did was make me a slow runner. Two years ago a coach recommended a controversial idea: no long runs, only speed work at threshold or higher pace. Plus hill sprints, track intervals and crosstraining on the bike and pool. Shorter workouts, but more workouts during the week. Quality over quantity. Never run at zone 1 or 2 unless warming up or cooling down.

6 months after trying this crazy routine, I had fewer days of soreness, no injuries and I had my fastest marathon time by 15 minutes. A year later I had another PR.

So, yes. There is merit to running fast and hard, every workout and avoiding the masses who say to run slow. I just want to make sure I'm not crossing the line with it.



And every elite runner out there will tell you this will only get you so far.

running more IS the way to get faster. There are a few poeple out there for a while that will do better on lower mileage and higher intensity, but these gains will slow down and then stop. and the longer you are racing, the less effective this is.

Running more mileage does not mean SLOW. it means at a pace that allows you to run again the next day, and the next, and the next. <----- That is what makes you faster.

If you run the same amount slow every week, you wont get faster. you need to stress things, add volume, throw in some intensity. But by and large, most of your gains WILL come from mileage.

There is no need to run everything slow, but going out and pounding wont make you faster for long. you may see a bit quicker gains, but it will stop, and then you'll be stuck.
And if you are that sore after workouts, then you are most def pushing too hard.

Thats how i feel after longer races, not training runs. Even my hardest long runs last year (15-17 mile trail runs with 10-12 miles at tempo type efforts) i was not that sore and had no issues getting in normal workouts either later that day or the next.
2010-10-08 5:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
mcstrangelove - 2010-10-08 3:27 PM I like the baking analogy.

Unfortunately, I subscribed to the long, slow runs for my marathon training a decade ago (NO thank you, Jeff Galloway) and all it did was make me a slow runner.  Two years ago a coach recommended a controversial idea:  no long runs, only speed work at threshold or higher pace. Plus hill sprints, track intervals and crosstraining on the bike and pool. Shorter workouts, but more workouts during the week.  Quality over quantity.  Never run at zone 1 or 2 unless warming up or cooling down.

6 months after trying this crazy routine, I had fewer days of soreness, no injuries and I had my fastest marathon time by 15 minutes.  A year later I had another PR.

So, yes.  There is merit to running fast and hard, every workout and avoiding the masses who say to run slow.  I just want to make sure I'm not crossing the line with it.


Why not ask the coach who suggested this training method?
2010-10-08 5:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?

Double post.



Edited by Donskiman 2010-10-08 5:55 PM
2010-10-08 6:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
What Scout said.

I don't do speed work because, well, I don't like it. I follow a training plan, but it's mainly a couple short runs during the week, a medium length run, and a long run.

I've said this on BT before, but I went from a 4:45 marathon to a 3:50 marathon in 4 years by just running more. That's going from a 10:52 pace to an 8:46 pace.

Even those who run what we consider shorter distances - 5Ks, 10Ks - and are very competitive put in 70+ mpw.
2010-10-08 6:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
Scout7 - 2010-10-08 12:12 PM Pushing too hard. You are pushing too hard when a workout affects your following works. The fact that various aids reduce your soreness by 50% does NOT mean you should push even harder. Why does everyone want to push things so much? You can't bake a cake faster by setting the oven temp to 500 degrees. All you end up with is burnt cake batter, and a lot of smoke. Running is the same. You take your time, you spend most of that time doing easy effort work. That's your flour, your eggs, your butter. When you get a bit out from your goal race, you start adding in the other stuff; maybe do some hill repeats, maybe some progression runs, maybe some tempo stuff. This is where you add the fancy stuff, like chocolate chips, or vanilla, or whatever. The type of workouts you do here depends on the type of race you want to do. A simple just go out and have fun...these are optional. Just like a no-frills cake. Couple months from the race, you start doing the harder efforts. This is interval time. Chopped walnuts, meringue, that's what this stage is. Some people don't like walnuts, they skip 'em. I don't like intervals much, so I don't throw that many into the mix. Still a good cake. Taper is baking. Right temp, right amount of time. Too much, you burn the cake. Too little, you end up with gooey cake. Burn yourself out by doing too much in taper, you aren't ready to race. Do too little, you end up feeling sluggish and lazy, like warm cookie dough, not a good finished cookie. The race, that's icing. You done the work, now frost it. Relax. Don't rush. Do it right, and the rewards are far better.


I LIKE CAKE!


2010-10-08 6:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?

Why not ask the coach who suggested this training method?
I actually did. He suggested that my VDOT score was too high. But occasionally I'll do a hard effort and don't know if I should push harder or just settle at that pace.

2010-10-08 6:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
mcstrangelove - 2010-10-08 12:27 PM I like the baking analogy.

Unfortunately, I subscribed to the long, slow runs for my marathon training a decade ago (NO thank you, Jeff Galloway) and all it did was make me a slow runner.  Two years ago a coach recommended a controversial idea:  no long runs, only speed work at threshold or higher pace. Plus hill sprints, track intervals and crosstraining on the bike and pool. Shorter workouts, but more workouts during the week.  Quality over quantity.  Never run at zone 1 or 2 unless warming up or cooling down.

6 months after trying this crazy routine, I had fewer days of soreness, no injuries and I had my fastest marathon time by 15 minutes.  A year later I had another PR.

So, yes.  There is merit to running fast and hard, every workout and avoiding the masses who say to run slow.  I just want to make sure I'm not crossing the line with it.


These results could also be due to a gain in running fitness/experience that you could have realized with any other plan.  Just because this plan resulted in a 15-20 minute PR, it doesn't mean another plan couldn't have gotten you a 30 minute PR.
2010-10-08 6:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?

I've said this on BT before, but I went from a 4:45 marathon to a 3:50 marathon in 4 years by just running more. That's going from a 10:52 pace to an 8:46 pace.

I actually did the same thing. I was around a 4:20 and followed a training plan similar to yours and got up to a 4:00. This was several years ago. Since then, I put more emphasis on speed training and upped my times to around 3:40.  I do a long run every 2 weeks (no more than 16 miles), but the rest is short, quality hard efforts, plus cross training.  As a consequence I've had more time to spend with my wife and have more spare time in general.

2010-10-08 6:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
Thanks everybody for all the suggestions!  I know I disagree with some of the info but I like hearing input from all sides.  Thanks!
2010-10-09 6:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Running: How sore is TOO sore?
mcstrangelove - 2010-10-08 5:48 PM

Thanks everybody for all the suggestions! I know I disagree with some of the info but I like hearing input from all sides. Thanks!



See, this, plus your post above, makes more sense, ie it gives you more time and right now is working.

That doesn't mean a SMART higher mileage approach would not be faster/a better idea, but thank you for looking at things from more than one side, a lot of people are unwilling to do this.



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