General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara) Rss Feed  
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2010-11-16 4:57 PM

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Elite
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Subject: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
Just bought a pair of Saucony Kinvara's and have done two runs (~15 miles) on them since Friday.  After those runs, I've had some serious knee pain and some extra tightness in my calves, bad enough that I could barely walk on Monday after doing 9 miles on Sunday.

I've been running in the Type A3/A4s for this entire year and have really loved the shoes.  I've never had any type of pain or soreness.  But with the build to IMTX coming up, I wanted a shoe that was better suited to higher volumes.  The Kinvara seemed like the perfect shoe; t's neutral like the Type A4 just with a little more padding...or so I thought.  Moveover, the reviews on it have been great. 

When I run in the Kinvara it feels comfortable, but I know afterwards that something is wrong.  What am I missing here?  My gait didn't magically change when I changed shoes.  Any Saucony runners out there with suggestions?  For now it's back to the racing flat...


2010-11-16 5:03 PM
in reply to: #3213886

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
Is there a big dif in the heel to toe drop on the kinvara vs what you were in before?

The kinvara is designed like a beefed up flat in that is has very little heel to toe drop, what were the previous ones like (sorry dont know those models).


If they had a more stacked heel this is somewhat normal, as you are now creating a sharper angle as your heel is lower compared to the toes on each step and that will pull on the calf/heel area a bit more (no idea on the knees though...)
2010-11-16 5:11 PM
in reply to: #3213896

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
newbz - 2010-11-16 5:03 PM Is there a big dif in the heel to toe drop on the kinvara vs what you were in before? The kinvara is designed like a beefed up flat in that is has very little heel to toe drop, what were the previous ones like (sorry dont know those models). If they had a more stacked heel this is somewhat normal, as you are now creating a sharper angle as your heel is lower compared to the toes on each step and that will pull on the calf/heel area a bit more (no idea on the knees though...)


The Type A4 is Saucony's neutral racing flat.  It is supposed to be identical to the Kinvara with a little less sole.  That's what has me so confused.  I've done all my running this year in the racing flat with no problems.  Same brand, both neutral shoes, same profile, same size, same width....
2010-11-16 5:55 PM
in reply to: #3213886

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
I just picked up the Kinvara and though I only have one 5 mile run in it, I haven't had issues.  Here is a copy and paste of the A4 vs. the Kinvara.

 The A4 is not only lighter than the Kinvara (it weighs in at 6.3oz vs. the Kinvara's 7.7oz - both values for men's size 9), but it's sole sits closer to the ground (13mm heel cushion, 9mm forefoot cushion in the A4 vs. 18mm/14mm in the Kinvara). With a heel-toe drop of only 4mm, the Grid Type A4 does seem like a promising candidate for midfoot/forefoot striking runners.
 
2010-11-16 6:18 PM
in reply to: #3213886

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Master
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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
I just got a pair of Knivara's as well and did an impromptu 13.1 on Saturday. I have run in Brooks shoes for a few years, and wanted to try a new brand. I also got a pair of ProGrid Ride 3's.

I felt great in the Kinvara's, but I did notice that my hamstrings felt a little tight on Sunday. I didn't run on Monday, did a super slow short run yesterday, and did 10 this afternoon.

I'm a bit mystified by your issues. Is it pain on the front or side of your knee? Side knee pain could be IT Band issues. I find that when I run in shoes that are more race orientated my calves do hurt a bit more after a run, but that's because I usually land more mid to forefoot.

2010-11-16 7:03 PM
in reply to: #3213968

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
natethomas2000 - 2010-11-16 6:18 PM I just got a pair of Knivara's as well and did an impromptu 13.1 on Saturday. I have run in Brooks shoes for a few years, and wanted to try a new brand. I also got a pair of ProGrid Ride 3's.

I felt great in the Kinvara's, but I did notice that my hamstrings felt a little tight on Sunday. I didn't run on Monday, did a super slow short run yesterday, and did 10 this afternoon.

I'm a bit mystified by your issues. Is it pain on the front or side of your knee? Side knee pain could be IT Band issues. I find that when I run in shoes that are more race orientated my calves do hurt a bit more after a run, but that's because I usually land more mid to forefoot.



What brooks do you normally wear?

Pain is about an inch below the bottom of the patella, right above where the top of the tibia protrudes.  I know what IT band feels like, and this definitely isn't it!


2010-11-16 8:38 PM
in reply to: #3213886

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
Kind of random but have you tried going back to the A4s and run to see if the pain is there with them now?  I'm just wondering if it's not due to the shoes and the timing was coincidental?  A shot in the dark but might be something to think about. 
2010-11-16 8:43 PM
in reply to: #3214118

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
COSkiGirl - 2010-11-16 8:38 PM Kind of random but have you tried going back to the A4s and run to see if the pain is there with them now?  I'm just wondering if it's not due to the shoes and the timing was coincidental?  A shot in the dark but might be something to think about. 


Very good thought, and that's exactly what I plan on doing over the next few days.  If the pain continues, then something else is very wrong...
2010-11-16 8:52 PM
in reply to: #3214127

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
I'm not sure about the cause, but I'd advise only traversing fairly flat ground until it clears up.  Jogging downhill can really flare up any sort of patella irritation.

*standing on the bike in a tough gear is also hard on the patella.

Edited by spudone 2010-11-16 8:52 PM
2010-11-16 9:07 PM
in reply to: #3214018

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
AndrewMT - 2010-11-16 8:03 PM
natethomas2000 - 2010-11-16 6:18 PM I just got a pair of Knivara's as well and did an impromptu 13.1 on Saturday. I have run in Brooks shoes for a few years, and wanted to try a new brand. I also got a pair of ProGrid Ride 3's.

I felt great in the Kinvara's, but I did notice that my hamstrings felt a little tight on Sunday. I didn't run on Monday, did a super slow short run yesterday, and did 10 this afternoon.

I'm a bit mystified by your issues. Is it pain on the front or side of your knee? Side knee pain could be IT Band issues. I find that when I run in shoes that are more race orientated my calves do hurt a bit more after a run, but that's because I usually land more mid to forefoot.



What brooks do you normally wear?

Pain is about an inch below the bottom of the patella, right above where the top of the tibia protrudes.  I know what IT band feels like, and this definitely isn't it!


Most recent pair were Trance 8's, and prior to that were Radius 7's.
2010-11-17 12:57 AM
in reply to: #3213886

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
Another thing you may want to try in the future, is to introduce new shoes gradually.  Don't do a long run in new shoes.  At first use them only for your easy short runs and gradually increase the weekly mileage in them over few weeks as you dial down the usage of the old shoe.

Sorry don't have experience with that particular model.


2010-11-17 8:16 AM
in reply to: #3214127

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
AndrewMT - 2010-11-16 9:43 PM
COSkiGirl - 2010-11-16 8:38 PM Kind of random but have you tried going back to the A4s and run to see if the pain is there with them now?  I'm just wondering if it's not due to the shoes and the timing was coincidental?  A shot in the dark but might be something to think about. 


Very good thought, and that's exactly what I plan on doing over the next few days.  If the pain continues, then something else is very wrong...


Please post the feed back that you find from this. I too have been having some unusual knee quirks / tightness in my calfs and hamstrings which, now that I think about it, started right around the time I added the Kinvara into my running shoe rotation.  I will try going back to my Asic Speedstars for the next week to see if this helps.
2010-11-17 8:20 AM
in reply to: #3214511

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
runningmonkey - 2010-11-17 8:16 AM
AndrewMT - 2010-11-16 9:43 PM
COSkiGirl - 2010-11-16 8:38 PM Kind of random but have you tried going back to the A4s and run to see if the pain is there with them now?  I'm just wondering if it's not due to the shoes and the timing was coincidental?  A shot in the dark but might be something to think about. 


Very good thought, and that's exactly what I plan on doing over the next few days.  If the pain continues, then something else is very wrong...


Please post the feed back that you find from this. I too have been having some unusual knee quirks / tightness in my calfs and hamstrings which, now that I think about it, started right around the time I added the Kinvara into my running shoe rotation.  I will try going back to my Asic Speedstars for the next week to see if this helps.


I did a very easy run (~30min) this morning and didn't feel any pain in my knee afterwards.  It's been a few hours since I finished the run and still nothing, which is about when I'd start feeling the pain after wearing the Kinvaras. 

I'm really disappointed.  I was excited about a good lightweight shoe I could train in.  For now it looks like I'll be doing my IM training in racing flats!
2010-11-17 8:25 AM
in reply to: #3213886

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
AndrewMT - 2010-11-16 5:57 PM

Just bought a pair of Saucony Kinvara's and have done two runs (~15 miles) on them since Friday.  After those runs, I've had some serious knee pain and some extra tightness in my calves, bad enough that I could barely walk on Monday after doing 9 miles on Sunday.



Taken from here.
If you have never before run in a shoe with a lower than usual heel, some adaptation may be necessary, and a period of calf soreness will likely occur after initial use (low drop shoes work the lower calves a lot more). Go easy at first, allow sore calves to rest, and all should be fine.


ETA: I'm wondering if the change in drop is causing the issue.

Edited by Scout7 2010-11-17 8:26 AM
2010-11-17 8:28 AM
in reply to: #3214533

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
Scout7 - 2010-11-17 8:25 AM
AndrewMT - 2010-11-16 5:57 PM Just bought a pair of Saucony Kinvara's and have done two runs (~15 miles) on them since Friday.  After those runs, I've had some serious knee pain and some extra tightness in my calves, bad enough that I could barely walk on Monday after doing 9 miles on Sunday.
Taken from here.
If you have never before run in a shoe with a lower than usual heel, some adaptation may be necessary, and a period of calf soreness will likely occur after initial use (low drop shoes work the lower calves a lot more). Go easy at first, allow sore calves to rest, and all should be fine.


I've read that and am aware of the adaptation.  I guess my confusion comes from my apparently wrong belief that running in neutral racing flats for about the past 18 months, I was already running in a shoe with similar heel/toe profile. 

Honestly, their own site states that the Type A4 and Kinvara are supposed to be identical, just differing on the thickness of the sole. 
2010-11-17 8:34 AM
in reply to: #3214542

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
AndrewMT - 2010-11-17 9:28 AM

Scout7 - 2010-11-17 8:25 AM
AndrewMT - 2010-11-16 5:57 PM Just bought a pair of Saucony Kinvara's and have done two runs (~15 miles) on them since Friday.  After those runs, I've had some serious knee pain and some extra tightness in my calves, bad enough that I could barely walk on Monday after doing 9 miles on Sunday.
Taken from here.
If you have never before run in a shoe with a lower than usual heel, some adaptation may be necessary, and a period of calf soreness will likely occur after initial use (low drop shoes work the lower calves a lot more). Go easy at first, allow sore calves to rest, and all should be fine.


I've read that and am aware of the adaptation.  I guess my confusion comes from my apparently wrong belief that running in neutral racing flats for about the past 18 months, I was already running in a shoe with similar heel/toe profile. 

Honestly, their own site states that the Type A4 and Kinvara are supposed to be identical, just differing on the thickness of the sole. 



ETA: My bad, I misread something above.

There may also be something with the mid-foot support that is throwing you off as well, but hard to say.

Edited by Scout7 2010-11-17 8:35 AM


2010-11-17 8:38 AM
in reply to: #3213886

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
I've also recently gotten the Kinvara and struggled to make the transition - didn't like how my calves felt after 3 mile run #1, and my rt calf is a mess after 3 mile run #2 (about a week apart).  I'm a 7x a week runner otherwise, so these were very gradual introductions... but for now they may be getting shelved.  I love how they feel on my feet and during a run, but not afterwards.  I too can't make heads or tails of it, since I do the majority of my running in other shoes in the same family (not quite minimalist).
2010-11-17 8:40 AM
in reply to: #3214549

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
Pretty sure switching to the Kinvara will be an increase in heel-toe drop not a decrease from the A4, not sure you can get much flatter than those.

Does padding really do anything?  I switched to the A4's earlier this year and have done a good majority of my runs in them vs. the more "traditional" running shoe with lots of padding and huge drop from heel to toe.

I was worried about the lack of padding in the A4's vs. what I was wearing before (New Balance 1063's) and now the NB feel like I am running with lead weights on my feet, and I pretty much only wear the A4's now for everything, races, training, etc.
2010-11-17 8:43 AM
in reply to: #3214549

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
Scout7 - 2010-11-17 8:34 AM
AndrewMT - 2010-11-17 9:28 AM
Scout7 - 2010-11-17 8:25 AM
AndrewMT - 2010-11-16 5:57 PM Just bought a pair of Saucony Kinvara's and have done two runs (~15 miles) on them since Friday.  After those runs, I've had some serious knee pain and some extra tightness in my calves, bad enough that I could barely walk on Monday after doing 9 miles on Sunday.
Taken from here.
If you have never before run in a shoe with a lower than usual heel, some adaptation may be necessary, and a period of calf soreness will likely occur after initial use (low drop shoes work the lower calves a lot more). Go easy at first, allow sore calves to rest, and all should be fine.


I've read that and am aware of the adaptation.  I guess my confusion comes from my apparently wrong belief that running in neutral racing flats for about the past 18 months, I was already running in a shoe with similar heel/toe profile. 

Honestly, their own site states that the Type A4 and Kinvara are supposed to be identical, just differing on the thickness of the sole. 
ETA: My bad, I misread something above. There may also be something with the mid-foot support that is throwing you off as well, but hard to say.


Yeah, I don't know.  That was a good review though!
2010-11-17 8:46 AM
in reply to: #3214561

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
dalessit - 2010-11-17 8:40 AM Pretty sure switching to the Kinvara will be an increase in heel-toe drop not a decrease from the A4, not sure you can get much flatter than those.

Does padding really do anything?  I switched to the A4's earlier this year and have done a good majority of my runs in them vs. the more "traditional" running shoe with lots of padding and huge drop from heel to toe.

I was worried about the lack of padding in the A4's vs. what I was wearing before (New Balance 1063's) and now the NB feel like I am running with lead weights on my feet, and I pretty much only wear the A4's now for everything, races, training, etc.


For normal running, I never notice a lack of padding in the A4s.  But god forbid you step on a rock or something hard in the middle of the foot.  I bruised the bottom of my foot about a month ago after stepping on a rock, which was the driving factor to try the Kinvara.

The HIM I did a week ago had an off road portion, which was a little hairy with the flats. 
2010-11-17 8:56 AM
in reply to: #3213886

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
While the Kinvara and A4 have the same heel drop from the factory, remember, you're going to compress that midsole over time. How old are those A4's? Have you compressed the forefoot cushioning? That would effectively increase the heel drop on those A4's, making it a transition to something with less drop going to the Kinvara's. Just a thought.

Edited by briderdt 2010-11-17 9:01 AM


2010-11-17 9:12 AM
in reply to: #3214575

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
AndrewMT - 2010-11-17 9:46 AM
dalessit - 2010-11-17 8:40 AM Pretty sure switching to the Kinvara will be an increase in heel-toe drop not a decrease from the A4, not sure you can get much flatter than those.

Does padding really do anything?  I switched to the A4's earlier this year and have done a good majority of my runs in them vs. the more "traditional" running shoe with lots of padding and huge drop from heel to toe.

I was worried about the lack of padding in the A4's vs. what I was wearing before (New Balance 1063's) and now the NB feel like I am running with lead weights on my feet, and I pretty much only wear the A4's now for everything, races, training, etc.


For normal running, I never notice a lack of padding in the A4s.  But god forbid you step on a rock or something hard in the middle of the foot.  I bruised the bottom of my foot about a month ago after stepping on a rock, which was the driving factor to try the Kinvara.

The HIM I did a week ago had an off road portion, which was a little hairy with the flats. 


Yeah, very good point, I would never run off-road in them.  I have enough trouble picking out the pebbles and seeds that get caught in the drainage holes as it is running on the road.
2010-11-17 9:55 AM
in reply to: #3213886

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
I bought Kinvara's about 3 months ago and have been slowly transistioning to them from Asics Nimbus.  No issues for me but my longest run in them so far was a Trail HM race last weekend.  Mostly they have been 6-8 mile runs on both trails and road.
2010-11-17 10:30 AM
in reply to: #3214600

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Subject: RE: Running Shoe Experts, need help on Saucony shoes (Kinvara)
briderdt - 2010-11-17 8:56 AM While the Kinvara and A4 have the same heel drop from the factory, remember, you're going to compress that midsole over time. How old are those A4's? Have you compressed the forefoot cushioning? That would effectively increase the heel drop on those A4's, making it a transition to something with less drop going to the Kinvara's. Just a thought.


Possible, but the A4s don't have a lot of room to compress!!  Only takes a mm or two though.
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