General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Slower turnover but speed is sustained? Rss Feed  
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2010-11-19 5:58 PM

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Subject: Slower turnover but speed is sustained?
So I joked a while back about adding weight training back into my workouts.  I said that it would help my swimming by having bigger "paddles."  Well, I bulk up rather easily and my arms have definitely gotten bigger.  I honestly feel slower in the pool and I especially feel like my turnover rate (sorry if that is not the right wording) is much slower.  However, my pace has not declined at all.  In fact, this year I was usually swimming at a 1:55 to 2:00 / 100 pace and swam 1:45 / 100 in a wetsuit.  Now I'm usually always 1:55 / 100 or better despite feeling like swimming slower.  I can only compare it to biking at the same watts but at a cadence of 65 versus the same power at a cadence of 85.

Am I just getting a better position on my arms during the catch and pull? 
Has anyone else experience anything like this?


2010-11-19 11:46 PM
in reply to: #3218960

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Subject: RE: Slower turnover but speed is sustained?
Pector55 - 2010-11-19 5:58 PM So I joked a while back about adding weight training back into my workouts.  I said that it would help my swimming by having bigger "paddles."  Well, I bulk up rather easily and my arms have definitely gotten bigger.  I honestly feel slower in the pool and I especially feel like my turnover rate (sorry if that is not the right wording) is much slower.  However, my pace has not declined at all.  In fact, this year I was usually swimming at a 1:55 to 2:00 / 100 pace and swam 1:45 / 100 in a wetsuit.  Now I'm usually always 1:55 / 100 or better despite feeling like swimming slower.  I can only compare it to biking at the same watts but at a cadence of 65 versus the same power at a cadence of 85.

Am I just getting a better position on my arms during the catch and pull? 
Has anyone else experience anything like this?


Maybe your training is paying off and it is just getting easier?  

Time to up the pace to 1:45 and make it hurt.
2010-11-20 5:40 AM
in reply to: #3218960

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Subject: RE: Slower turnover but speed is sustained?
Unless you are referring to a pace over a fairly lengthy distance, improvements in speed in the pool are almost always a result of increased form.  Slowing down your stroke will often do that for people - you rush less and can concentrate a bit more on proper form.  Congrats! 
2010-11-20 7:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Slower turnover but speed is sustained?
axteraa - 2010-11-20 6:40 AM Unless you are referring to a pace over a fairly lengthy distance, improvements in speed in the pool are almost always a result of increased form.  Slowing down your stroke will often do that for people - you rush less and can concentrate a bit more on proper form.  Congrats! 


I am currently finding this out for myself.  I was swimming some speed sets yesterday and as I wore down I noticed my form suffering and my times getting slower.  Then on a longer set after a minute of rest I was cruising at a slower turnover and was able to maintain an equal or better pace without tiring as quickly.

I also have another theory.  With more strength from weight training there is more power for the pull segment of the stroke.  I can rationalize this in my head but I would defer to the more experienced swimmers and athletes posting here.  I also have to say, I am considering bulking up slightly myself to the former power lifting physique I had several years ago.  BUT, I also doubt I will take the time away from tri training that it would require to get some of that back.  That said this thread has some interest to me based on the last couple of sentences.

 
2010-11-20 10:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Slower turnover but speed is sustained?
axteraa - 2010-11-20 6:40 AM Unless you are referring to a pace over a fairly lengthy distance, improvements in speed in the pool are almost always a result of increased form.  Slowing down your stroke will often do that for people - you rush less and can concentrate a bit more on proper form.  Congrats! 


Good point on better form when slower.  I know that when I slow and think about reaching further I feel faster in the water.

I'm referring to the overall pace of the workout.  I guess the part that confuses me is that my pace is slowing because it honestly feels like there is more resistance.  My guess is that I'm getting the high elbow part right so I'm feeling the resistance more?  I can only equate it to how hard it feels to pull when you are wearing the paddles.  You know how hard it feels to pull so you naturally slow down your stroke rate?  Yeah.. that. 

One other possibility may be that my muscles are more fatigued from weight training so perhaps it just feels harder and slower?  I'm not sure. 
2010-11-20 11:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Slower turnover but speed is sustained?
axteraa - 2010-11-20 6:40 AM

Unless you are referring to a pace over a fairly lengthy distance, improvements in speed in the pool are almost always a result of increased form.  Slowing down your stroke will often do that for people - you rush less and can concentrate a bit more on proper form.  Congrats! 


+1


2010-11-20 12:30 PM
in reply to: #3218960

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Subject: RE: Slower turnover but speed is sustained?
This is an easy qeustion to answer by simply counting how many strokes you are taking to get across the pool and by measuring your stroke rate.

Counting strokes is easy. I count everytime a hand enters the water (pushoff, half stroke underwater, then the first time an hand enters is "1", the opposite hand entering is "2")

Measuring yoru stroke rate can be done by an oberver with a stopwatch (less reliable) or more easily with a tempo trainer which csst $30-40. The tempo trainer can be set to a specific stroke rate and is useful in a lot of ways during workouts.

In any case, the "puzzle" you are trying to solve for yourself is how you are constructing your speed. The answer is easy, stroke rate x distance per stroke = velocity.

When you figure out what your current paramaters are, you can focus on one of two ways to get faster...lengthen your stroke or increase your rate (or both)
2010-11-20 2:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Slower turnover but speed is sustained?
DirkP - 2010-11-20 9:41 AM
axteraa - 2010-11-20 6:40 AM Unless you are referring to a pace over a fairly lengthy distance, improvements in speed in the pool are almost always a result of increased form.  Slowing down your stroke will often do that for people - you rush less and can concentrate a bit more on proper form.  Congrats! 


I am currently finding this out for myself.  I was swimming some speed sets yesterday and as I wore down I noticed my form suffering and my times getting slower.  Then on a longer set after a minute of rest I was cruising at a slower turnover and was able to maintain an equal or better pace without tiring as quickly.

I also have another theory.  With more strength from weight training there is more power for the pull segment of the stroke.  I can rationalize this in my head but I would defer to the more experienced swimmers and athletes posting here.  I also have to say, I am considering bulking up slightly myself to the former power lifting physique I had several years ago.  BUT, I also doubt I will take the time away from tri training that it would require to get some of that back.  That said this thread has some interest to me based on the last couple of sentences.

 


Increasing your strength/power by weight training won't make you faster in the water unless you already have good form.  You can't muscle your way through the water, it just doesn't work.  In my opinion, the only way to get faster in the water is to improve your technique and then improve your conditioning - not that they can't happen at the same time but technique will give you the biggest bang for your buck.

ETA: I agree with what AB says.  I have no experience with a tempo trainer but the principle behind it makes sense to me.


Edited by axteraa 2010-11-20 2:58 PM
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