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2010-11-29 5:06 PM
in reply to: #3229140

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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
No one is mentioning one obvious thing here, which I believe gets to the heart of the problem with the TSA:  How would an x-ray have been expected to be at all useful?

If they suspect there was something inside the container, "hidden" by the milk, would they not just shake the bottle? An x-ray would just tell them that there is liquid.  Which they can presumably SEE.  Pour it into another container if need be.  Unless it is barium, which I do not believe has an explosive quality, I highly doubt that any useful information would be gleaned from an x-ray.  It speaks to the mindless, obsessive/compulsive personality quality (missing the forest for the trees) of petty beaurocrats the world over.


2010-11-29 5:12 PM
in reply to: #3229417

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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
zed707 - 2010-11-29 5:00 PM

melle - 2010-11-29 4:41 PM Simple answer, if you don't like the rules don't fly.  Take the train, drive or take a bus.  

Look at it form the TSA's point of view.  Lady tries to go through security with "breast milk" and no kid.  Why should they hold up everyone else when this person is obviously trying to cause problems?

Ok, flame away for not being sympathetic to this person.  I fly 100k-200k miles per year and there is always some idiot who is trying to push the rules as far as possible.  With all my travel I have only had to go through the full body scanners a few times and as long as I treat the TSA agents with respect they do the same. 

You know, I'm with you. I think this is no big deal. Haven't seen the video because youtube's blocked at work, but sounds like she was being big drama queen--with her filming her horrible mistreatment.

I'm not sure the problem with x-raying the milk either. Has that been proven to be dangerous? I mean if you have food in your carry on it gets x-rayed.

 



Melle: Whoa whoa. Now a breastfeeding woman who has pumped so she can feed her child when she gets home in a few hours is trying to cause problems? She specifically researched the rules before she went to the airport (she had a printed copy in her hand for chrissake!) and we have all concluded she was well within the regulations. If anyone was causing problems, it was the TSA ignorant to their OWN rules.

Zed: watch the video when you get home. No audio, but to me she is being extremely calm for the circumstances. Also she did not film this... it is TSA film -- you'll see that when you watch the video.
2010-11-29 5:20 PM
in reply to: #3229399

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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
melle - 2010-11-29 4:41 PM

Simple answer, if you don't like the rules don't fly.  Take the train, drive or take a bus.  

Look at it form the TSA's point of view.  Lady tries to go through security with "breast milk" and no kid.  Why should they hold up everyone else when this person is obviously trying to cause problems?

Ok, flame away for not being sympathetic to this person.  I fly 100k-200k miles per year and there is always some idiot who is trying to push the rules as far as possible.  With all my travel I have only had to go through the full body scanners a few times and as long as I treat the TSA agents with respect they do the same. 


Yah I agree. When the government mandates something in the name of security we should never question it.

Stop questioning the government people! Why do you hate America?
2010-11-29 5:34 PM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
melle - 2010-11-29 5:41 PM Simple answer, if you don't like the rules don't fly.  Take the train, drive or take a bus.  

Look at it form the TSA's point of view.  Lady tries to go through security with "breast milk" and no kid.  Why should they hold up everyone else when this person is obviously trying to cause problems?

Ok, flame away for not being sympathetic to this person.  I fly 100k-200k miles per year and there is always some idiot who is trying to push the rules as far as possible.  With all my travel I have only had to go through the full body scanners a few times and as long as I treat the TSA agents with respect they do the same. 


Sounds fine.  Unless you want to go somewhere over water.  Or until the terrorists attack a train, bus, or major highway.  The TSA will then be within its mandate to search those as well.If you allow that, then it will only be legal to be free from a search if you remain on your own property. 

Remember the terrorists are following the approach of "a thousand cuts".  By making small infringements, the TSA takes the same approach to civil liberties. 
2010-11-29 5:37 PM
in reply to: #3229140

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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
No exemption from X-Ray for breast milk and formula.  Only exempt from the 3 ounce rule.
2010-11-29 6:26 PM
in reply to: #3229461

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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
pga_mike - 2010-11-29 5:37 PM No exemption from X-Ray for breast milk and formula.  Only exempt from the 3 ounce rule.


Not sure if you read through the whole thread, but it actually is if requested.  I learned that myself by sorting through the TSA website.  It's treated as a medication for some reason. 


2010-11-29 7:19 PM
in reply to: #3229399

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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
melle - 2010-11-29 5:41 PM Simple answer, if you don't like the rules don't fly.  Take the train, drive or take a bus.  

Look at it form the TSA's point of view.  Lady tries to go through security with "breast milk" and no kid.  Why should they hold up everyone else when this person is obviously trying to cause problems?

Ok, flame away for not being sympathetic to this person.  I fly 100k-200k miles per year and there is always some idiot who is trying to push the rules as far as possible.  With all my travel I have only had to go through the full body scanners a few times and as long as I treat the TSA agents with respect they do the same. 


Or perhaps she needed to pump because her breasts were full and she was in a significant bit of discomfort?  Once a woman puts her milking on a schedule, she pretty much needs to keep up with it.  I would imagine that's one of the reasons that women can travel with breast milk and no child now. 
2010-11-29 8:51 PM
in reply to: #3229560

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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
Chaderbox - 2010-11-29 7:19 PM
melle - 2010-11-29 5:41 PM Simple answer, if you don't like the rules don't fly.  Take the train, drive or take a bus.  

Look at it form the TSA's point of view.  Lady tries to go through security with "breast milk" and no kid.  Why should they hold up everyone else when this person is obviously trying to cause problems?

Ok, flame away for not being sympathetic to this person.  I fly 100k-200k miles per year and there is always some idiot who is trying to push the rules as far as possible.  With all my travel I have only had to go through the full body scanners a few times and as long as I treat the TSA agents with respect they do the same. 


Or perhaps she needed to pump because her breasts were full and she was in a significant bit of discomfort?  Once a woman puts her milking on a schedule, she pretty much needs to keep up with it.  I would imagine that's one of the reasons that women can travel with breast milk and no child now. 
 

Then why the need to carry it along with her?  Based on the fact that she is flying without her child it's safe to say she has either been away from it or she is just leaving.  Either way the fact that she showed up with breast milk, no kid and rules in hand just suggests to me that she is looking for attention.  Besides, how is the TSA supposed to be able to tell the difference between breast milk, formula and regular milk?  Who knows, maybe they keep someone on staff for taste tests.

It's still very simple, if you want to fly follow the rules.  You don't have to like them.  In fact, if you don't like them do something useful like calling your congressman instead of harassing the TSA.   The TSA agents have one of the most thankless jobs on the planet.  
2010-11-30 8:50 AM
in reply to: #3229663

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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
melle - 2010-11-29 8:51 PM
Chaderbox - 2010-11-29 7:19 PM
melle - 2010-11-29 5:41 PM Simple answer, if you don't like the rules don't fly.  Take the train, drive or take a bus.  

Look at it form the TSA's point of view.  Lady tries to go through security with "breast milk" and no kid.  Why should they hold up everyone else when this person is obviously trying to cause problems?

Ok, flame away for not being sympathetic to this person.  I fly 100k-200k miles per year and there is always some idiot who is trying to push the rules as far as possible.  With all my travel I have only had to go through the full body scanners a few times and as long as I treat the TSA agents with respect they do the same. 


Or perhaps she needed to pump because her breasts were full and she was in a significant bit of discomfort?  Once a woman puts her milking on a schedule, she pretty much needs to keep up with it.  I would imagine that's one of the reasons that women can travel with breast milk and no child now. 
 

Then why the need to carry it along with her?  Based on the fact that she is flying without her child it's safe to say she has either been away from it or she is just leaving.  Either way the fact that she showed up with breast milk, no kid and rules in hand just suggests to me that she is looking for attention.  Besides, how is the TSA supposed to be able to tell the difference between breast milk, formula and regular milk?  Who knows, maybe they keep someone on staff for taste tests.

It's still very simple, if you want to fly follow the rules.  You don't have to like them.  In fact, if you don't like them do something useful like calling your congressman instead of harassing the TSA.   The TSA agents have one of the most thankless jobs on the planet.  


It's like you're not even reading the thread.
The woman was flying home to her infant. She was going to feed her infant with her breast milk upon arrival. Apparently this is a crime now, or someone starved for attention?? Please.

And she WAS following the rules. We already established that about 5x in this thread. Breast milk is treated as a medicine, which is exempt from the xray machine.
 
2010-11-30 9:06 AM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
melle - 2010-11-29 5:41 PM Simple answer, if you don't like the rules don't fly.  Take the train, drive or take a bus.  
 


Sorry that argument doesn't fly (no pun intended).  DHS is talking about adding these procedures to trains, boats, subways etc..

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/130549-next-step-for-body-scanners-could-be-trains-boats-and-the-metro-

"You don't like it..? ...then WALK!"

As we've argued in several other threads it's a slippery slope argument.  How would you feel about having to submit to a backscatter or millimeter wave machine, or a pat down every time you want to cross a bridge or tunnel or other area deemed "sensitive" by the DHS.



Edited by TriRSquared 2010-11-30 9:07 AM
2010-11-30 9:08 AM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
melle - 2010-11-29 9:51 PM

Then why the need to carry it along with her?  Based on the fact that she is flying without her child it's safe to say she has either been away from it or she is just leaving.  Either way the fact that she showed up with breast milk, no kid and rules in hand just suggests to me that she is looking for attention. 


You need to speak to a woman who breastfeeds.  There are MANY reason why a woman who is traveling back to her child would need to pump and transport her breast milk.


Edited by TriRSquared 2010-11-30 9:09 AM


2010-11-30 9:38 AM
in reply to: #3229140

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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
I can understand her frustration but reading the article and watching the video it does sound like she wasn't exactly cooperating with TSA.  You want to get picked on by anyone in law enforcement, just antagonize them.  

While TSA is an organization of unskilled, low paid, glorified security guards, I still think that if her attitude was different the outcome would have been more in her benefit.   The video shows obvious bias towards the passenger, it would have been nice if they offered her a chair, but other than that its really speculation what was said.

I think if people are using this video for a call that we are losing our freedoms and turning into a police state, they need to get the silver spoon out of their mouths.   I personally don't care for this new form of journalism where people bait authority figures for 'news' and that seems like what it is.   I'm not siding with TSA but there is two sides to every story and I don't see any obvious abuses.
2010-11-30 10:09 AM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
furiousferret - 2010-11-30 10:38 AM

I can understand her frustration but reading the article and watching the video it does sound like she wasn't exactly cooperating with TSA.  You want to get picked on by anyone in law enforcement, just antagonize them.  

While TSA is an organization of unskilled, low paid, glorified security guards, I still think that if her attitude was different the outcome would have been more in her benefit.   The video shows obvious bias towards the passenger, it would have been nice if they offered her a chair, but other than that its really speculation what was said.

I think if people are using this video for a call that we are losing our freedoms and turning into a police state, they need to get the silver spoon out of their mouths.   I personally don't care for this new form of journalism where people bait authority figures for 'news' and that seems like what it is.   I'm not siding with TSA but there is two sides to every story and I don't see any obvious abuses.


^^^This^^^

For gawd sakes, say good morning, thank you, present things in an orderly fashion, don't argue and be reasonable. No chit-chat, no arguements. Be polite and you'll do just fine .

The video is ridiculously biased with statements in airquotes to attract attention, is edited to present the image of long timeframes, etc. The woman apparently has a tough time understanding that she isn't suppoed to touch her belongings (always true for everyone). When they swab my laptop for residues, I realize that it's not confrontational towards me, just that every once in a while, they check laptops to see if they contain explosive residues or devices. No problem; swab, I'll watch from over here and if any questions come up, I'll answer them when TSA raises them.

Just be resonable about it and you'll go along smoothly. You might also notice that there's no queue and everyone else goes through without incident? The system works well for everyone else?

Also, whoever enters security 20 minutes before flight time takes a HUGE risk that they'll miss their flight.
2010-11-30 10:21 AM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
pitt83 - 2010-11-30 11:09 AM

The woman apparently has a tough time understanding that she isn't supposed to touch her belongings (always true for everyone). When they swab my laptop for residues, I realize that it's not confrontational towards me, just that every once in a while, they check laptops to see if they contain explosive residues or devices. No problem; swab, I'll watch from over here and if any questions come up, I'll answer them when TSA raises them.


Things go thru the xray and you grab them.  It's normal procedure.  Why would she not grab her items.  We have no idea what they said to her (maybe they never told here there were going to be screed further?)  If they simply grabbed my stuff and started walking off I'd be asking question as well.  We simply do not know.

pitt83 - 2010-11-30 11:09 AM  Also, whoever enters security 20 minutes before flight time takes a HUGE risk that they'll miss their flight.


Actually it was 27 mins (but probably still cutting it a little close depending on the airport)

pitt83 - 2010-11-30 11:09 AM

No chit-chat, no arguements. Be polite and you'll do just fine . ... Just be resonable about it and you'll go along smoothly.


That's right...don't question your government.  Otherwise you'll be labeled as a "domestic extremist" by the government.

http://www.unitedliberty.org/articles/7426-oppose-tsa-procedures-youre-an-extremist


Edited by TriRSquared 2010-11-30 10:25 AM
2010-11-30 12:06 PM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
So, if you disagree with the TSA rules, on any level, you're an extremist, and if you agree with the TSA rules, on any level, you're nothing but a mindless sheep.

This thread has real legs.

And we wonder why nothing ever gets accomplished.
2010-11-30 12:14 PM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
Two things:

1) Everything about this video is speculative.  No audio?  So basically it's all "he said/she said."  I don't think it's fair to form an opinion either way about something when the facts are so ambiguous.

2) This video is from earlier this year, before the new TSA screening procedures.  So this has nothing to do with the new precautions.  To me, it seems like the media is playing it up now to fuel the outrage against TSA.  So to those who think we're letting the government walk all over us for not questioning TSA's authority, aren't we kind of letting the media do the same thing by swaying our perceptions to one way or another by throwing old news like this at us at such a convenient time?

And for the heck of it, I'm going to add a third.

3) I flew to Florida over this last weekend, and the only time I saw any TSA people being rude at all was when travelers were rude to them first.  I didn't even see anybody being scanned or patted down, for that matter.  I actually talked to one guy about his Thanksgiving for a long time.  My goal is to make at least one TSA person smile per trip because, c'mon, that's a crappy job.


2010-11-30 12:14 PM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
TriRSquared - 2010-11-30 11:21 AM
...

That's right...don't question your government.  Otherwise you'll be labeled as a "domestic extremist" by the government.

http://www.unitedliberty.org/articles/7426-oppose-tsa-procedures-youre-an-extremist


Again I find myself in agreement here (what's happening to me?!?!)  The link, though, not so much, in the implication that it is a problem solely of the current administration.  While it is true that a fish rots from the head, the premise of the TSA rests on their presumed jurisdictional role to do whatever they deem necessary for "security" (however they interperate this).  Most of the TSA employees are not going to be appointed by one or another adminstration.  So their culture will pretty well hold steady no matter who is running the Homeland Security. 

(And just for the record, I HATE the term "Homeland".  It makes me think of "Fatherland" under the Nazis and "Motherland" under the communists in Russia.  It is the sort of mind-think language that fuels totalitarianism.  What the h is wrong with just being the department of security? Or American security? Ugh.  I'd rather eat "freedom fries" than talk about "the homeland").
2010-11-30 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
gearboy - 2010-12-01 1:14 AM
TriRSquared - 2010-11-30 11:21 AM
...

That's right...don't question your government.  Otherwise you'll be labeled as a "domestic extremist" by the government.

http://www.unitedliberty.org/articles/7426-oppose-tsa-procedures-youre-an-extremist


Again I find myself in agreement here (what's happening to me?!?!)  The link, though, not so much, in the implication that it is a problem solely of the current administration.  While it is true that a fish rots from the head, the premise of the TSA rests on their presumed jurisdictional role to do whatever they deem necessary for "security" (however they interperate this).  Most of the TSA employees are not going to be appointed by one or another adminstration.  So their culture will pretty well hold steady no matter who is running the Homeland Security. 

(And just for the record, I HATE the term "Homeland".  It makes me think of "Fatherland" under the Nazis and "Motherland" under the communists in Russia.  It is the sort of mind-think language that fuels totalitarianism.  What the h is wrong with just being the department of security? Or American security? Ugh.  I'd rather eat "freedom fries" than talk about "the homeland").


The Belgians, just this once, might even agree with you.

/hijack off

Carry on!
2010-11-30 2:45 PM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
Scout7 - 2010-11-30 1:06 PM So, if you disagree with the TSA rules, on any level, you're an extremist, and if you agree with the TSA rules, on any level, you're nothing but a mindless sheep. This thread has real legs. And we wonder why nothing ever gets accomplished.


I'm not sure anyone said or implied the latter, however the government apparently thinks the former.
2010-11-30 4:00 PM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
TriRSquared - 2010-11-30 1:45 PM
Scout7 - 2010-11-30 1:06 PM So, if you disagree with the TSA rules, on any level, you're an extremist, and if you agree with the TSA rules, on any level, you're nothing but a mindless sheep. This thread has real legs. And we wonder why nothing ever gets accomplished.


I'm not sure anyone said or implied the latter, however the government apparently thinks the former.

I'll go on record with agreeing with the latter, with the exception of not allowing people who aren't flying to go through security - though that's for efficiency purposes rather than security.
2010-12-01 5:51 AM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far

This is an example of what you get when you don't want to profile for terrorists.  Last time I checked black grandmothers with their grandchildren don't blow up airplanes, or 40 y/o bleached blonde females or nuns, etc.  As long as the PC game of treating everyone the same is played instead of profiling for terrorists, we will have scenes like this. 



2010-12-01 8:59 AM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
NXS - 2010-12-01 5:51 AM

This is an example of what you get when you don't want to profile for terrorists.  Last time I checked black grandmothers with their grandchildren don't blow up airplanes, or 40 y/o bleached blonde females or nuns, etc.  As long as the PC game of treating everyone the same is played instead of profiling for terrorists, we will have scenes like this. 



I agree with everything that you’ve said, but treating everyone the same way isn’t just “PC”, it’s the cornerstone of our society. It may be true statistically that a particular kind of person is more likely to steal from a store or default on a mortgage, but that doesn’t give retailers or mortgage lenders the right to decide to refuse service to that class of people, or to expose those people to greater scrutiny or more obstacles.
Again, I don’t disagree with you, and I don’t know what the answer is, but it’s an oversimplification to say that the reason we don’t profile is out of some misguided sense of political correctness.
2010-12-01 9:59 AM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
If you don't think the government already profiles in non-public ways you are sorely wrong.  Do you think the FBI keeps tabs on more Mosques or more Baptist churches?
2010-12-01 10:05 AM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
NXS - 2010-12-01 6:51 AM

Last time I checked black grandmothers with their grandchildren don't blow up airplanes, or 40 y/o bleached blonde females or nuns, etc. 



Nuns are one thing, but they better not blow up 40 year old bleach blonde females!
2010-12-01 10:16 AM
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Subject: RE: TSA has gone too far
mrbbrad - 2010-12-01 11:05 AM
NXS - 2010-12-01 6:51 AM

Last time I checked black grandmothers with their grandchildren don't blow up airplanes, or 40 y/o bleached blonde females or nuns, etc. 



Nuns are one thing, but they better not blow up 40 year old bleach blonde females!


Yes those are slated to be chained to the bottom of the ocean with all the lawyers.
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