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2011-01-16 10:40 AM

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Subject: Question for all the football folks
I enjoy football, not a student of the game but I do enjoy watching.

When my Dad was in town last there was a lot of talk about the concussions the athletes are suffering out on the field.  My Dad (74) is always looking for the next great thing and considers himself a guy full of great ideas.  I said "thats what you can do Dad, come up with a helmet that will keep these guys safe"

He replied he already had it figured out but nobody wants to hear it.  His thoughts are that turf really speeds up the game and allows harder hits because guys are going faster.  He believes everyone already knows this and they like it that way because it makes for great TV.  He said "when the owners put the health of their players ahead of the money they get from TV and start putting grass in all the stadiums the concussion rate will drop."

I know there are a lot of domes but I also think you could probably grow grass in some of them and then aren't there outdoor stadiums that still have turf? 

It would be interesting to look at the teams who play on grass more than turf and compare the injury rates.  I know teams travel a lot and everyone plays on turf and everyone plays on grass but if your home field is grass you are playing on it at least 50% of the time plus the other fields that have grass.

Do you know if anybody has done this?  Compared the playing fields?  Just curious if my Dad's idea would make a difference.


2011-01-16 11:03 AM
in reply to: #3302614

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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
Perhaps a marginal difference, but IMO not very much. The speed and strength of today's players, esp in the NFL makes it almost irrelevant what surface they are running on vis-a-vis how much force they run into another player with.

Also, as far as heads slamming into artificial turf vs. grass, I don't see much improvement there either. When grass gets frozen it's as hard or harder than any artificial surface. The new sport turf they are using indoors these days has come a long way copmared to ealry astroturf in terms of softness and impact on the body.

All in all I just don;t see any improvement from his idea. Wearing mouth guards and continuing to look at helmet systems to absorb impacts are the 2 biggest things they can do outside out rules modifications IMO.

Not a Doctor, just a sports fan.

2011-01-16 11:06 AM
in reply to: #3302614

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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
There was a study done a couple of years ago that found that the amount of concussion on turf and natural fields was similar, there wasnt a statistical difference big enough to make a recomendation either way.

That same study found that the rate of ankle injuries was about 30% higher in turf and knee injuries were also higher but not as much as ankles....

I'm sure there are other studies there but that is the one i can remember....Also keep in mind that concussions are now more common because they have put an emphasis in diagnosing them and protecting players to some degree, which it didnt happen before...Plus players now days are stronger, faster which also plays a part in it.....
2011-01-16 3:37 PM
in reply to: #3302656

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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
Cuetoy - 2011-01-16 12:06 PM There was a study done a couple of years ago that found that the amount of concussion on turf and natural fields was similar, there wasnt a statistical difference big enough to make a recomendation either way.

That same study found that the rate of ankle injuries was about 30% higher in turf and knee injuries were also higher but not as much as ankles....

I'm sure there are other studies there but that is the one i can remember....Also keep in mind that concussions are now more common because they have put an emphasis in diagnosing them and protecting players to some degree, which it didnt happen before...Plus players now days are stronger, faster which also plays a part in it.....


All grass stadiums arent a reality unless everyone is forced to have a temperature controlled dome. I fully agree with the bold section, better medical staffing and equipment has allowed for guys to be better diagnosed. Football is no more harder hitting than it used to be, id argue that it might even be softer. Helmets are bigger than they were even 10 years, and im sure the foam used is space age technology.
2011-01-16 3:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks

I'm trying to remember where I saw it, but somewhere I read an article speculating that the increased number of concussions was actually the result of the better helmets that players have now.  The logic was basically that when the player knows he has a weapon strapped to his head that is designed to protect him, he's going to charge full speed into an impact thinking the helmet will protect him while helping to make the play.  If he were wearing the leather helmets from many decades ago, he wouldn't be as likely to tackle as hard head-first.

2011-01-16 4:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
TriMyBest - 2011-01-16 4:52 PM

I'm trying to remember where I saw it, but somewhere I read an article speculating that the increased number of concussions was actually the result of the better helmets that players have now.  The logic was basically that when the player knows he has a weapon strapped to his head that is designed to protect him, he's going to charge full speed into an impact thinking the helmet will protect him while helping to make the play.  If he were wearing the leather helmets from many decades ago, he wouldn't be as likely to tackle as hard head-first.



Yeah, there have been some football guys that have that opinion.  That players feel so protected that they use their body to hit in ways that they wouldn't before.....There are some other football guys that have a theory that if  you would make the face mask  similar to the way it was before that players would feel less protected and would be more cautious....They negative part about that would be an increase in broken noses and scratches, but i guess that compared to a head injure thats not much.....


2011-01-16 4:15 PM
in reply to: #3303023

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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
you really want concussion rates to drop? go back to leather helmets.  concussions are usually caused by spearing, cant spear with a leather helmet (wothout a high liklihood of paralyzing yourself)
2011-01-16 4:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
TriMyBest - 2011-01-16 3:52 PM

I'm trying to remember where I saw it, but somewhere I read an article speculating that the increased number of concussions was actually the result of the better helmets that players have now.  The logic was basically that when the player knows he has a weapon strapped to his head that is designed to protect him, he's going to charge full speed into an impact thinking the helmet will protect him while helping to make the play.  If he were wearing the leather helmets from many decades ago, he wouldn't be as likely to tackle as hard head-first.



Freakonomics did a podcast on this. Might have also written about it on their NYTimes blog.
2011-01-16 5:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
This all makes sense, thanks.
2011-01-17 7:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
mkarr0110 - 2011-01-16 4:37 PM
All grass stadiums arent a reality unless everyone is forced to have a temperature controlled dome. I fully agree with the bold section, better medical staffing and equipment has allowed for guys to be better diagnosed. Football is no more harder hitting than it used to be, id argue that it might even be softer. Helmets are bigger than they were even 10 years, and im sure the foam used is space age technology.


why is this?  heinz field is grass.  i would guess lambeau and many other outdoor stadiums are as well.

that said, a local high school stadium put in artificial turf and i ran a 5k that finished on that field.  running on that was like a DREAM.  of course, i was running and not getting thrown into it.  it is a MUCH sturdier surface than grass.
2011-01-17 8:21 AM
in reply to: #3303009

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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
mkarr0110 - 2011-01-16 4:37 PM
Cuetoy - 2011-01-16 12:06 PM There was a study done a couple of years ago that found that the amount of concussion on turf and natural fields was similar, there wasnt a statistical difference big enough to make a recomendation either way.

That same study found that the rate of ankle injuries was about 30% higher in turf and knee injuries were also higher but not as much as ankles....

I'm sure there are other studies there but that is the one i can remember....Also keep in mind that concussions are now more common because they have put an emphasis in diagnosing them and protecting players to some degree, which it didnt happen before...Plus players now days are stronger, faster which also plays a part in it.....


All grass stadiums arent a reality unless everyone is forced to have a temperature controlled dome. I fully agree with the bold section, better medical staffing and equipment has allowed for guys to be better diagnosed. Football is no more harder hitting than it used to be, id argue that it might even be softer. Helmets are bigger than they were even 10 years, and im sure the foam used is space age technology.


 A stadium doesn't have to be Dome to have natural grass, look at Soldier Field, GB, to mention a couple.  They all have natural grass, what they do is the place hitting coils under the dirt.

 In regards to the hitting, i highly doubt that the collisions now day are less violent than before.  If you compare the size of the players, the speed and everything else is hard to imagine that would be possible.


2011-01-17 8:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
there are some great helmets out there that actually do reduce the concussions, only a few players were them since they look funny.    when you get to the HS and college level it's more of the cost of the helmets,  Most schools are not going to replace the existing helmet with this newer type due to cost.

I"ll hunt around and see if I can find a picture of them... But there are out there. maybe a dozen or so players actually wear them
2011-01-17 9:19 AM
in reply to: #3302614

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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
I've had the leather helmet theory for several years now and didn't realize that thought had become so popular.  I think the helmets and shoulder pads should all be reduced.  Players would go back to actually trying wrap a guy up and make the sure tackle rather than going for the Sports Center Hit of the Week. 

Not sure how many people here are hockey fans too, but I think the same thing applies.  You are seeing bigger and bigger hits and more concussions in the NHL as well.  Players have so many pads on they all act like goalies and are constantly blocking shots.
2011-01-17 10:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
TriMyBest - 2011-01-16 4:52 PM

I'm trying to remember where I saw it, but somewhere I read an article speculating that the increased number of concussions was actually the result of the better helmets that players have now.  The logic was basically that when the player knows he has a weapon strapped to his head that is designed to protect him, he's going to charge full speed into an impact thinking the helmet will protect him while helping to make the play.  If he were wearing the leather helmets from many decades ago, he wouldn't be as likely to tackle as hard head-first.



Yep.  Look at rugby and Australian rules football.  The incident of concussions there are FAR less than in US football.  Neither of those sports wear pads or helmets.
2011-01-17 3:04 PM
in reply to: #3303931

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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
Gaarryy - 2011-01-17 6:38 AM there are some great helmets out there that actually do reduce the concussions, only a few players were them since they look funny.    when you get to the HS and college level it's more of the cost of the helmets,  Most schools are not going to replace the existing helmet with this newer type due to cost.

I"ll hunt around and see if I can find a picture of them... But there are out there. maybe a dozen or so players actually wear them


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Riddell Revolution Speed:


Supposedly they lower concussion risk by 30%.

The UFL uses Xenith helmets:
2011-01-18 7:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
scorpio516 - 2011-01-17 4:04 PM
Gaarryy - 2011-01-17 6:38 AM there are some great helmets out there that actually do reduce the concussions, only a few players were them since they look funny.    when you get to the HS and college level it's more of the cost of the helmets,  Most schools are not going to replace the existing helmet with this newer type due to cost.

I"ll hunt around and see if I can find a picture of them... But there are out there. maybe a dozen or so players actually wear them


Schutt DNA Pro+


Riddell Revolution Speed:


Supposedly they lower concussion risk by 30%.

The UFL uses Xenith helmets:


Unfortunately a picture of Chad Henne won't promote the usage of this helmet....Other players would be afraid to stink that bad......

Actually  i think there is one that is even more modern, Aaron Rodgers wore it after his concussion this year, it look a lot bigger but perhaps im mistaken and it is this same model....


2011-01-18 9:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks

When I was playing high school football 40 years ago (gulp!), we wore Riddell suspension helmets that were state-of-the-art for the day.  My senior year we also started getting some helmets with an air padding system that could be fit to a player's head precisely using an air pump.  Although the technology of the padding systems has advanced, I'm still struck by how little helmets have really changed over the years. 

One thing I have noticed these days is how frequently players have their helmets knocked off.  It can't be doing much to protect your head if it's rolling along on the ground.  Our coaches spent a lot of time fitting our helmets and they were very snug.  The explanation was that they were designed to align a certain way with the head and spine and didn't offer the proper protection if they were knocked askew.  (That also provided the coaches with a rationale for keeping our hair short - if it was too long the helmet wouldn't fit properly.)

That being said, the tackling technique we were taught in the late 60's used the helmet as a primary weapon.  You were taught to lead with your face/forehead, putting it right between the numbers on the front of the other guy's jersey.  That's the main reason I starting wearing a cage facemask my sophomore year - during my freshman year I had broken my nose making a "form tackle", leading with my face.   We got chewed out it we led with our shoulders.  Although we were cautioned not to hit with the top of our heads, it didn't take much for that to happen.

During my senior year I started getting headaches and numbness in my arms after practice and games.  My parents finally took to the ER one night and they discovered problems with my neck that eventually led to fusing my C6 & C7 vertabrae.  Although I was devastated at the time that my football career was over, looking back I feel lucky that I didn't end up parapalegic or worse.

Mark

2011-01-18 9:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks

Recently they were talking about this on one of the local talk radio shows and one of the hosts (ex player) mentioned that one of the biggest hurdles for some of the better new helmets is the fact that other companies have exclusive licensing agreements with the NFL.  Therefore, they are procluded/prevented from providing their products to the players even if the player wants it.  It was Mark Schlereth that was saying this if that holds any weight.  ESPN Commentator.

2011-01-18 9:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks
I've got the solution. No more concussions. Just implement this device:

2011-01-18 10:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for all the football folks

Unfortunately even if grass is safer it can get just as hard as or harder than turf given the outside temp. The Chicago vs. Seattle game this weekend saw two guys carted off the field. One didn't hit anything but the grass.

I subscribe to the better helmet = harder hits theory as well. I believe it was Heinz Ward who said if you want to lose the concusions take off the pads and helmets all together and see who still wants to hit as hard as they do now.

I also think the NFL is just more concerned about it these days. Remember the days of Troy Aikman? That guy had a head made out of glass. I remember games where they thought he might have a concussion but they sent him right back out to play.

I agree with the NFL not appreciating the helmet to helmet hits. But their protection of quarterbacks has reached the point of being pathetic. Quarterbacks aren't china dolls, they should be able to take a hit, if they can't perhaps they should be playing.

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