General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing? Rss Feed  
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2011-04-11 12:15 PM

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Subject: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?

Is there such a thing as Swim Start Etiquette? when it pertains to swimming over or around people.

Is the swim start more like a group of responsible adults pushing there way assertively into a store on black friday or more like some one yelling fire in a movie theater and everyone running out over each other.  Even though I make a light joke about it I am serious.

I am a MOP swimmer and at best maybe I would lead the MOP'ers in some races (but not FOP!) so I am fast enough to pass some but slow enough to be passed. I have read forums, books, talked to people about the start and understand it is very physical and I expect to be kicked, pushed etc.

However if I am swimming and I am surrounded by others and there is someone slower in front of me, do I slow down to their pace, force my way through, or look for an escape elsewhere when the others move away? also what should I expect someone to do to me.?

All I hear is how physical the swim start is but even though people say it is brutal I cant imagine everyone literally climbing over each other and pushing them down etc...even videos I have watched I have seen many get kicked and hit everywhere but no one that climbs over another swimmer.

so is there an etiquette when you are trying to break free when surrounded by others?

thanks



Edited by FELTGood 2011-04-11 12:17 PM


2011-04-11 12:22 PM
in reply to: #3440109

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Master
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
The mentor in the mentor group I am in said he has done something like 88 OWS and only kicked twice, or something to that effect. He aslo went on to say swimming over someone poses a greater risk to the passing swimmer than the one being passed, as in greater risk of being elbowed or kicked somewhere unpleasant. I suspect that, although these things happen, they are a little over emphasized. I've read allot of race reports, I think you, and I, will be ok
2011-04-11 12:24 PM
in reply to: #3440109

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Sensei
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?

I guess it's up to the individual..

But here is MY stance on it.  I can only speak for myself.

First of all, I DON'T slow down for anyone.  It's my race, so I swim at MY pace.  HOWEVER, I don't intentionally swim over people like water polo.  If I run into somone's feet, I will look for room to pass, but I'm not afraid to bump shoulders with someone.

In other words, I don't look for contact, but I'm not going to hold back if someone positioned themselves poorly.  I look for a reasonable minimal contact route to pass.

2011-04-11 12:27 PM
in reply to: #3440109

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?

My IM swim start was pretty chaotic.  I wasn't able to get out in front of the group (mostly because I'm not a great swimmer) and in the most congested parts there were a lot of elbows and contact.

That being said, every other swim start I've done has gone fairly smoothly.  Even when things seem crowded, bodies move out of the way, so squeezing in between or waiting a few seconds to take a slightly different angle seems to work well.  Most people seem to realize that there's no need for undue physical contact and it remains civil.  Just keep in mind to treat the person in front of you like you would want a faster person behind to treat you!

2011-04-11 12:32 PM
in reply to: #3440109

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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
I've only done two OW triathlons, but I haven't had any problems with people being overly-aggressive nor have I had to be that way to swim at my pace.  For me, I just choose a spot a little off to the side where there isn't going to be a mob of people.  In both cases I don't think I swam more than 10 extra feet and I didn't have to deal with tons of slow to pass or tons of fast people trying to pass me. 
2011-04-11 12:32 PM
in reply to: #3440109

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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
Double post, sorry.


Edited by n.k 2011-04-11 12:32 PM


2011-04-11 12:32 PM
in reply to: #3440109

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?

I look at it like walking into a bar. I'm not looking for a fight, but I'm not going to be surprised if I get hit.

If you start towards the back, it's going to be calmer (generally. Although you still have to watch out for breast strokers)

Towards the front, it's going to be more physical, as everyone is in it for time and wants to take the fastest line at the turns, etc.

Towards the middle...well, it's somewhere in the middle...
Don't go out trying to hurt somebody, but don't slow yourself down for them either. Generally I like to give a slap or two on the feet to let somebody know I'm there... then if they don't help me out a bit...here I come...

2011-04-11 12:33 PM
in reply to: #3440109

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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
FELTGood - 2011-04-11 1:15 PM

so is there an etiquette when you are trying to break free when surrounded by others?


No. Start somewhere near the middle on the side AWAY from the buoys and you should be fine, though.

2011-04-11 12:34 PM
in reply to: #3440109

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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?

From my limited experience, it is more akin to “yelling fire” in an overly packed theater.

I’ve been swam over several times. And unless I’m they only guy in sight,  it doesn’t bother me. All part of the sport.

I would say, swim over someone, don’t swim on someone.  It’s  never taken more than a stroke or two for whomever to swim over me and then be away.

Whenever I've overtaken someone, there has always been enough room for me to pass next to rather than over.

2011-04-11 12:41 PM
in reply to: #3440152

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Master
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
Leegoocrap - 2011-04-11 10:32 AM

I look at it like walking into a bar. I'm not looking for a fight, but I'm not going to be surprised if I get hit.

If you start towards the back, it's going to be calmer (generally. Although you still have to watch out for breast strokers)

Towards the front, it's going to be more physical, as everyone is in it for time and wants to take the fastest line at the turns, etc.

Towards the middle...well, it's somewhere in the middle...
Don't go out trying to hurt somebody, but don't slow yourself down for them either. Generally I like to give a slap or two on the feet to let somebody know I'm there... then if they don't help me out a bit...here I come...

Do you get hit often when you go into a bar?

Around, over and through is my motto. If you seed yourself near the front, its more aggressive. If you seed yourself in the back, be prepared to swim around people. I try to be considerate when people stop in front of me or swim across my line. Often a gentle push down on their legs while you pass over them works, but there have been times where I've had to (gently) push their legs to one side or the other because they're crossing me at a 45 deg angle. I don't want to be overly aggressive, but at the same time it is a race.

I seed myself in the front now, but off to the side. I'd rather someone pass me than me having to go around others.

2011-04-11 12:44 PM
in reply to: #3440109

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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
I've never understood why this mentality is accepted during the swim but not the bike or run portions? I see it every time these posts come up "it's a race"...why not start knocking people off their bikes or running THROUGH someone on the run course instead of taking 3 steps to either side? 


2011-04-11 12:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
I haven't had a really crazy swim start yet. I tend to stay to the inside so I can get out and around other swimmers while still swimming the shortest distance.
2011-04-11 12:51 PM
in reply to: #3440189

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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
It is a vision thing...  Mainly because you swim with your head down or turned to the side to breathe, except to sight, so harder to see what's coming.  Also, many people end up swimming at angles, which can lead to collisions with the people swimming straighter. 
2011-04-11 1:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?

I plan to either be on the outside middle or per the ironman book depending on the current to be on the inside middle to rear (if the current is moving you away from the first buoy-per ironman OWS)....my thoughts are either I am going to be trying as hard as possible to getting into a groove and I will be running up someones legs or visa versa...but I guess thats what makes swim starts so much fun.   As far as contact goes I will not shy away from it but wont be looking for it either

thanks for input thus far



Edited by FELTGood 2011-04-11 1:01 PM
2011-04-11 1:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?

I've actually ran into more problems on corners during the swim.  I'm usually able to pull out to FOP at the start, but then sometimes rounding a buoy can get a little tricky (for example, if I've caught up to a pack from the wave ahead, and they're all crammed around the buoy, I'll find myself getting squeezed a bit and it difficult to pass).


I also once had this guy that was swimming parallel to me that kept turning into me and bumping into me with his arms.  I was keeping a reasonably straight line, I have no idea what he was doing. 

I've never been hard enough in an OWS swim that I felt any measurable pain though.  I've had much worse lap swimming in a pool and making contact with someone going the other way.

2011-04-11 1:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?

abqtj - 2011-04-11 10:44 AM I've never understood why this mentality is accepted during the swim but not the bike or run portions? I see it every time these posts come up "it's a race"...why not start knocking people off their bikes or running THROUGH someone on the run course instead of taking 3 steps to either side? 

Have you ever been in a draft-legal bike race (esp. a crit)? LOTS of contact at the front! I've heard of it in running races too. Nothing malicious, but it's there. If I'm running or riding at a good clip and someone comes to a dead stop right in front of me, there's no guarantee I'll be able to avoid them no matter how hard I try. On the bike, it's less of an issue because of the drafting rules.

But the other poster has it right - visibility is often poor and you don't realize you're on a collision course until it's about to happen. We're not talking about punching, elbowing and kicking - that stuff is mostly unintentional.



2011-04-11 1:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
MonkeyClaw - 2011-04-11 1:41 PM [

Do you get hit often when you go into a bar?

 

Why do people think that this isn't something that really happens? I've NEVER been in a bar locally when there wasn't a fight at some point. I try not to be in them... but those things happen. Maybe it's just an East TN thing...

2011-04-11 1:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
dbl post


Edited by Leegoocrap 2011-04-11 1:24 PM
2011-04-11 1:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
MonkeyClaw - 2011-04-11 2:14 PM

abqtj - 2011-04-11 10:44 AM I've never understood why this mentality is accepted during the swim but not the bike or run portions? I see it every time these posts come up "it's a race"...why not start knocking people off their bikes or running THROUGH someone on the run course instead of taking 3 steps to either side? 

Have you ever been in a draft-legal bike race (esp. a crit)? LOTS of contact at the front! I've heard of it in running races too. Nothing malicious, but it's there. If I'm running or riding at a good clip and someone comes to a dead stop right in front of me, there's no guarantee I'll be able to avoid them no matter how hard I try. On the bike, it's less of an issue because of the drafting rules.

But the other poster has it right - visibility is often poor and you don't realize you're on a collision course until it's about to happen. We're not talking about punching, elbowing and kicking - that stuff is mostly unintentional.

 

Plus with the swim you're already face down in a prone position. Sucks to end up that way during the bike or run.

2011-04-11 1:29 PM
in reply to: #3440132

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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
Kido - 2011-04-11 10:24 AM

I guess it's up to the individual..

But here is MY stance on it.  I can only speak for myself.

First of all, I DON'T slow down for anyone.  It's my race, so I swim at MY pace.  HOWEVER, I don't intentionally swim over people like water polo.  If I run into somone's feet, I will look for room to pass, but I'm not afraid to bump shoulders with someone.

In other words, I don't look for contact, but I'm not going to hold back if someone positioned themselves poorly.  I look for a reasonable minimal contact route to pass.

Couldn't say it better.  There's no reason to swim over anyone.  None.  They deserve to be where they are just as much as you do, even if you don't like it.  I am a decent swimmer, swam 30 at a 70.3 last weekend, starting in wave 20 of 23.  I didn't swim over anyone, although the opportunity presented itself multiple times.  I will swim next to and around someone which often results in some contact.  ETA if someone is swimming at a diagonal, I will swim over the bottom part of their legs if I have to. 



Edited by ChrisM 2011-04-11 1:32 PM
2011-04-11 2:25 PM
in reply to: #3440343

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.

Edited by gvey 2011-04-11 2:28 PM


2011-04-11 3:03 PM
in reply to: #3440109

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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3S0wu4Zbfk

This is a good idea of how it will be. 
2011-04-11 3:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
Kido - 2011-04-11 1:24 PM

I guess it's up to the individual..

But here is MY stance on it.  I can only speak for myself.

First of all, I DON'T slow down for anyone.  It's my race, so I swim at MY pace.  HOWEVER, I don't intentionally swim over people like water polo.  If I run into somone's feet, I will look for room to pass, but I'm not afraid to bump shoulders with someone.

In other words, I don't look for contact, but I'm not going to hold back if someone positioned themselves poorly.  I look for a reasonable minimal contact route to pass.

 

well said, X2

2011-04-11 3:46 PM
in reply to: #3440152

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Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
Leegoocrap - 2011-04-11 10:32 AM

I look at it like walking into a bar. I'm not looking for a fight, but I'm not going to be surprised if I get hit.

What bars are you going to

 

EDIT: Just saw your other post... I guess it must be an East TN thing because I've seen probably two fights in bars in my entire life. 



Edited by n.k 2011-04-11 3:55 PM
2011-04-11 3:58 PM
in reply to: #3440109

over a barrier
Subject: RE: Swim Start Etiquette..such a thing?
No reason to swim over someone ever. Wait to get around, at the start of the race its a huge bottle neck, everyone wants to swim faster you need to let the heard thin out.



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