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2011-05-05 2:41 PM

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Subject: Poodles need not apply

http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/05/05/050511-news-seal-dog-1-5/

Article about the attack dogs that are used in the military.  I would not want to be the target.  Titanium teeth? Yikes!

I was amazed they would not freak out when parachuting in.  Love that first photo.



2011-05-05 3:03 PM
in reply to: #3484114

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Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply
VERY cool, thanks for sharing!
2011-05-05 3:26 PM
in reply to: #3484114

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply

Most of those kinds of dogs are far better trained, well-behaved, and definitely smarter than I am.

I wouldn't count poodles out, though. Standard poodles are pretty badazz. There's a guy who mushes a team of them every year at Iditarod and he's come in the top 5.

What some people don't know is how utterly cool these dogs are. These dogs are actually very sociable and they love the training and work for its own sake. It's a grand adventure to them, but they are also (obviously) extremely well trained.

It's not just the training, though. Many of them are spooky-smart and seem to be able to actually figure out and react intelligently to novel situations.

A fair amount of research has been done on canid behavior, although far less on domesticated dogs ... it was pooh-poohed in academic circles for a long time. However, it is still much of a mystery why most highly trained dogs will persist in loyalty and obedience in the most challenging of circumstances--in the face of great danger, through severe injury, and perhaps most surprisingly of all, against orders when the dog senses that a better option is available.

For example, a Seeing Eye Dog will NOT allow its owner to proceed into a dangerous situation regardless of what the owner's command or direction is.

2011-05-05 3:33 PM
in reply to: #3484181

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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply
TriAya - 2011-05-05 1:26 PM

Most of those kinds of dogs are far better trained, well-behaved, and definitely smarter than I am.

I wouldn't count poodles out, though. Standard poodles are pretty badazz. There's a guy who mushes a team of them every year at Iditarod and he's come in the top 5.

What some people don't know is how utterly cool these dogs are. These dogs are actually very sociable and they love the training and work for its own sake. It's a grand adventure to them, but they are also (obviously) extremely well trained.

It's not just the training, though. Many of them are spooky-smart and seem to be able to actually figure out and react intelligently to novel situations.

A fair amount of research has been done on canid behavior, although far less on domesticated dogs ... it was pooh-poohed in academic circles for a long time. However, it is still much of a mystery why most highly trained dogs will persist in loyalty and obedience in the most challenging of circumstances--in the face of great danger, through severe injury, and perhaps most surprisingly of all, against orders when the dog senses that a better option is available.

For example, a Seeing Eye Dog will NOT allow its owner to proceed into a dangerous situation regardless of what the owner's command or direction is.

Good information Yanti. I seem to remember from my animal behavior class in college that there was some research done on the individual vs. pack mandate when it comes to certain species and behaviours. Basically what it said (if I remember correctly) was that some pack animals were so socially intertwined that the good of the pack always came before the good of the self. This might go to the credence for some of these highly trained dogs because once we insinuate ourselves into their lives we become their pack.

This was a great article though and I would love to meet some of these service dogs. I bet they love to play and swim   (I have several times met various work dogs for local police agencies and when not "on the job" they were the absolutley best most entertaining and sometimes silly dogs I have ever known.)

2011-05-05 3:34 PM
in reply to: #3484114

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply

Always interesting to read about these things.  I have no doubt that the dogs used for specialized Navy SEAL ops like this fit the description given...but not all military working dogs (MWD) get "extras" like the titanium teeth.  In fact, I imagine the number of those dogs in the programs are very, very few.  I speak from a bit of experience in that, for 19 months, I commanded the MP law enforcement unit at Ft. Hood, and as part of that, had the largest military working dog kennels in the Army.  Unlike normal Army units, MWD teams (1 Soldier, 1 Dog), deploy individually to the various theaters and attach to units that need them.  Some go to regular Army Brigades, but a very large (if not majority) of them go directly to work with various SF teams (of all types--I had guys with every type of special ops units).  A good amount of the ones working with the SF are of the SSD type (Specialized Search Dog)--these dogs are trained to work off leash to detect explosives in order to give large buffer zones to the rest of the team so they can proceed safely through a danger area or in a house, etc.. These type dogs are NOT aggressive trained and that's purposeful--works really well when in towns, working with people, etc. SSDs, therefore, can be of several different breeds, and while I haven't seen a poodle yet, I have seen some very small collies, hunting type dogs, etc. Basically, if they have a fantastic sense of smell and able to detect explosives, they might be an SSD.  Every MWD does not look or act like Cujo! Though, we have these as well and they're amazing (PEDDs- Patrol Explosive Detection Dogs and PNDD- Patrol Narcotic Detection Dogs)--but most of these only act like that when specifically told by their handler to do so.

Regardless of service (Army, Navy, Marine, AF), all dog handlers go through the same initial DoD training in San Antonio and thus have the same basic skill sets.  I can say from first hand experience that K9 Handler Soldiers are some of the most dedicated I have ever seen, and they have to be! They have to love what they are doing, they have to love their dog, and develop the closest relationship possible with their dog.  To get the team (the handlers skills of understanding their dog, dog psychology, etc. is no joke to learn) fully ready and able to meet certification requirements means long days and lots of weekends of training.  But the results speak for themselves.  I've seen our explosive dogs indicate on the amount of gunpowder in a tiny party popper (we're talking very very little powder) hidden in lots of grass with other distractions near by (food, animal scents, etc.).  It is amazing to see what these teams can do, and they have discovered massive caches of weapons and explosives in both Iraq and Afghanistan, thereby saving who knows how many Soldier and civilian lives. 

I know I just wrote a lot--but I learned SO much from these amazing Soldiers and about the program when I was in command.  They are often unsung heroes--deploying alone and attaching to units, conducting missions that place them in the most dangerous of positions.  Oh, and while "technically" MWDs don't get awards (medals) or hold "official" rank--it is the tradition within the K9 community that the dog is considered to be one rank HIGHER than their handler (thus, the handler treats them with the respect that they would someone of superior rank), and we can and do "unofficially" give out awards and commendations to the dogs as well. 

And lastly, I will say, after seeing them work, putting on the bite suit and experiencing the power of that K9, if someone ever tells me "stop, or I'll release my dog"--I am STOPPING.  I might be able to out maneuver someone shooting at me, but that dog is going to get me and it's not going to be pretty!

Can you tell I love my Military Working Dog handlers?!?



Edited by TexasMPGal 2011-05-05 3:37 PM
2011-05-05 3:39 PM
in reply to: #3484114

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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply
TexasMPGal, thank you for your post, that was some really interesting info!


2011-05-05 3:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply
TriAya - 2011-05-05 4:26 PM

I wouldn't count poodles out, though. Standard poodles are pretty badazz. There's a guy who mushes a team of them every year at Iditarod and he's come in the top 5.

Actually I've owned a poodle.  And they are badazz.  And the smartest dog I've even met.  (Maybe I should have said "Jack Russels" ?)

TMPG, thanks for the extra info.  We have a seeing eye dog training facility down here.  They invite the public in to socialize with the dogs.  It's a pretty high wash out rate of dogs that just can't do the job.



Edited by TriRSquared 2011-05-05 3:44 PM
2011-05-05 3:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply

Just one more reason that dogs are superior to cats. Even my dogs, who, despite being retrievers, cannot swim.

Seriously, the fact that these dogs are so smart makes them a strong asset - they can make some decisions on the ground, as well as respond to directions instantly.

2011-05-05 3:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply

x2 amazing post, Brit!

I can train to Schutzhund II and most intelligent, motivated, physically suited dogs can be taught to detect explosives and narcotics ... (and that part is fairly easy)

... but when you start talking about putting that all together in MWD levels of training, including handler and team training and emergency situations--I know enough to know that's a whole different ballgame. What an awesome 19 months!

2011-05-05 4:00 PM
in reply to: #3484234

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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply
TriRSquared - 2011-05-05 1:44 PM
TriAya - 2011-05-05 4:26 PM

I wouldn't count poodles out, though. Standard poodles are pretty badazz. There's a guy who mushes a team of them every year at Iditarod and he's come in the top 5.

Actually I've owned a poodle.  And they are badazz.  And the smartest dog I've even met.  (Maybe I should have said "Jack Russels" ?)

TMPG, thanks for the extra info.  We have a seeing eye dog training facility down here.  They invite the public in to socialize with the dogs.  It's a pretty high wash out rate of dogs that just can't do the job.

Some more fun tidbits: For the DoD's "puppy program" (what the military breeding program is typically referred to as), puppies will go to families and live with them for about a year and get socialized to being with people, learn basic commands, etc. If you ever see something written about an MWD and their name is spelled with double first letters (Oori, Ddaphne, Ttitan, etc.) that indicates that they came from that official US puppy program.  Oori is one of the dogs at Hood (tough to work him, not cause he wasn't good at what he did, he was excellent....but he doesn't like letting go!!) who has fathered a lot of dogs out there.  Most of the aggressive ("patrol") trained dogs are typically German Shepherds, Dutch Shepherds, Belgian Malinois breeds.  During the Cold War era when guard dogs were used a lot at posts, they would be "single purpose"--patrol only, we have moved from that and now the patrol dogs are all dual purpose and are either explosive or narcotic detectors as well.  They teach these dogs tracking skills as well, but they are looking to make the "combat tracker dog" program more integrated.  We've actually had to have Soldiers train w/civilian agencies and they are assigned a "contracted dog" (in essence, the Army is renting the dog) that is combat tracker trained (tracking down people).  They are adding this into the PEDD/PNDD program more now. 
In that vein, one of my Soldiers and combat tracker dog handlers, SPC Brandon K. Steffey and MWD Maci, both paid the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan on 25 Oct 2009...and I will never forget them.

(Brandon and MWD Maci)

2011-05-05 4:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply
bel83 - 2011-05-06 5:33 AM

Good information Yanti. I seem to remember from my animal behavior class in college that there was some research done on the individual vs. pack mandate when it comes to certain species and behaviours. Basically what it said (if I remember correctly) was that some pack animals were so socially intertwined that the good of the pack always came before the good of the self. This might go to the credence for some of these highly trained dogs because once we insinuate ourselves into their lives we become their pack.

A huge amount of research has been done on pack dynamics in canids (not all of which form packs, btw), and group dynamics in other mammalian species.

The dynamics are actually significantly more complicated than that (but you know that). The general rule for species is that individuals are driven to pass on their own genes ... and the good of the group does not play into that at all.

Where it may seem like that is that (as you said) some (lower-ranking) members "know" that they have no hope of achieving higher status. Their best shot is protecting the interests of relatives in pack ranking (and therefore reproduction), which would pass on at least some of their genes. In those cases, they may be seen as acting on behalf of leaders or seemingly the pack itself.

The argument of good-of-the-pack doesn't quite work, and it definitely wouldn't work for highly trained working dogs.

HOWEVER ... that is where the mystery of dogs' famous loyalty, as I said, even at horrendous and illogical cost to themselves, comes into play.

A lot of behavioural studies on altruism and "loyalty" have been done, but their data and conclusions are the topic of very hot debates among ethologists.

It's fascinating stuff. I really think I need to become a neuroscientist.



2011-05-05 4:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply

 

TexasMPGal - 2011-05-06 6:00 AM

In that vein, one of my Soldiers and combat tracker dog handlers, SPC Brandon K. Steffey and MWD Maci, both paid the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan on 25 Oct 2009...and I will never forget them.

(Brandon and MWD Maci)

           

Rest in peace, Brandon and Maci. Thank you for honoring them and posting this.

2011-05-05 4:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply

The closeness of some of these dog teams is incredible.  This article shows that even MWDs can suffer a broken heart at the loss of their handler, a sad and touching story. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1362275/Bomb-sniffing-Army-dog-dies-broken-heart-Taliban-kill-master.html

MWDs also suffer PTSD.  I had one team that was working some intense missions with SF in Afghanistan, and the dog suffered PTSD to the extent she wouldn't work anymore.  The team had to redeploy.  BUT, through some initial medication (anti-anxiety), close care, and attention, she rehabilitated and was able to get back work. 

2011-05-05 4:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply
TexasMPGal - 2011-05-06 6:11 AM

The closeness of some of these dog teams is incredible.  This article shows that even MWDs can suffer a broken heart at the loss of their handler, a sad and touching story. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1362275/Bomb-sniffing-Army-dog-dies-broken-heart-Taliban-kill-master.html

MWDs also suffer PTSD.  I had one team that was working some intense missions with SF in Afghanistan, and the dog suffered PTSD to the extent she wouldn't work anymore.  The team had to redeploy.  BUT, through some initial medication (anti-anxiety), close care, and attention, she rehabilitated and was able to get back work. 

I don't want to overly "sciencize" this, but that's really what I mean about the mystery of the strength of bond that domesticated dogs can create with humans, each other, and even other species.

A cat will just not willingly die or overly suffer for you (usually not even suffer much over you).

Some animals mate for life, but still, it's not that crazy crazy indefinable and seemingly unassailable bond that actually quite many dogs have for their partners or loved ones.

Brit, you're making my life difficult ... now I don't ever want to stop working with dogs ... DRAT! Choices, choices!

Well, for the time being, I'm not physically able to, so maybe I'll do some heavy studying instead.

2011-05-05 4:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply

My dogs would never make the cut.  They wouldn't like skydiving.

I also like the first picture.  SO incredibly awesome.  I :heart: MWDs!

2011-05-05 8:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply

MWDs rock.  I "caught" a couple AF dogs for demos.  They hit hard and knock you down, once your on your face, the handler posted the dog between my legs  with its nose about mid thigh.  Great incentive to not move and let the patrolman finish the apprehension.

Other words you don't want to hear... DOG OFF LEASH even other patrolmen stop moving until the dog locks on its target. 

Nice puppy, nice puppy.



2011-05-05 9:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply
TriAya - 2011-05-05 2:07 PM
bel83 - 2011-05-06 5:33 AM

Good information Yanti. I seem to remember from my animal behavior class in college that there was some research done on the individual vs. pack mandate when it comes to certain species and behaviours. Basically what it said (if I remember correctly) was that some pack animals were so socially intertwined that the good of the pack always came before the good of the self. This might go to the credence for some of these highly trained dogs because once we insinuate ourselves into their lives we become their pack.

A huge amount of research has been done on pack dynamics in canids (not all of which form packs, btw), and group dynamics in other mammalian species.

The dynamics are actually significantly more complicated than that (but you know that). The general rule for species is that individuals are driven to pass on their own genes ... and the good of the group does not play into that at all.

Where it may seem like that is that (as you said) some (lower-ranking) members "know" that they have no hope of achieving higher status. Their best shot is protecting the interests of relatives in pack ranking (and therefore reproduction), which would pass on at least some of their genes. In those cases, they may be seen as acting on behalf of leaders or seemingly the pack itself.

The argument of good-of-the-pack doesn't quite work, and it definitely wouldn't work for highly trained working dogs.

HOWEVER ... that is where the mystery of dogs' famous loyalty, as I said, even at horrendous and illogical cost to themselves, comes into play.

A lot of behavioural studies on altruism and "loyalty" have been done, but their data and conclusions are the topic of very hot debates among ethologists.

It's fascinating stuff. I really think I need to become a neuroscientist.

oh yea I know all about the altruism arguments etc. I was just trying to simplify as long posts at work are not conducive, well....work.

2011-05-05 10:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply

I love reading about working dogs of all kinds, but these dogs are crazy impressive!  No way am I convincing Jazz to jump out of any airplanes. 

 

But Brit, reading all of your comments, I can't help but get this mental image of your dogs wearing tiny little flak jackets and parachute packs taking the brave leap...

2011-05-06 12:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply
CitySky - 2011-05-05 8:32 PM

I love reading about working dogs of all kinds, but these dogs are crazy impressive!  No way am I convincing Jazz to jump out of any airplanes. 

 

But Brit, reading all of your comments, I can't help but get this mental image of your dogs wearing tiny little flak jackets and parachute packs taking the brave leap...

Haha, yes, this is quite humorous given the title of the thread, for the rest of the crowd that may not know, while I have MWD knowledge from the job--I have an 8lb ADHD poodle and a 15lb fattie Yorkie-Poo.  Both of them are likely to lick and love someone to death before anything else! But, what was funny, is when I came home from work after spending time at the Kennels, that would sniff my uniform so much and give me the "you've been with other dogs, and not just other dogs, BIG dogs" look!

2011-05-06 9:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply
TexasMPGal - 2011-05-06 1:07 AM

-I have an 8lb ADHD poodle

ADHD poodle is redundant.   I know, I had one too.

2011-05-06 10:17 AM
in reply to: #3484114

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Subject: RE: Poodles need not apply
OK, I take back what I said about cats in war. Who knew? (OK, it's tongue in cheek, but still kind of funny)

Edited by gearboy 2011-05-06 10:21 AM


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