General Discussion Triathlon Talk » HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 24
 
 
2005-08-30 6:55 PM

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
How many of you triathletes out there are using this formula? Put up your hand and admit it - I can't see you through cyber space :-)

If I read one more message that says the athlete is using this formula, I am going off the DEEP END! People, this is not correct. It may work, but chances are very slim it will work for you. Of course the 15 people that it works for will post that it does work - but my point is that for the MAJORITY, this formula of 220-AGE = MAX Heart Rate - DOES NOT WORK!

Your best bet is to get some lab testing done to find out your Lactate Threshold. If you don't have access to a lab for whatever reason (location or $) don't fret. We have 'field' tests that you can do and the only thing you need is you, your Heart Rate Monitor and some 3 D's: Desire, Determination, and Discipline.

Field test for bike and run:
Determining Bike Training Zones

In biking we want to know our heart rate training zones. To make this as easy as possible, we will use a standard 30 minute TT. From this TT we will be able to determine the correct training zones. I do advocate doing both an inside and outside LT tests.

Bike test protocol for inside testing:

The warm-up is 15 minutes of cycling, moving through the different gears, always keeping the cadence above 90 RPMS. Do a few short sprints to get your heart rate up and ready for the test!

You should start out in a gear that you can maintain 90 RPMS in. Make sure you remember what gear you started in.

The 30 minute TT begins.
At 10 minutes into the test, hit the 'Lap' button on your heart rate monitor, to get the average heart rate over the final 20 minutes of the test.
The average for the final 20 minutes is your Lactate Threshold or LT.
You should finish knowing you gave it everything you had.
15 minutes easy cool down.

Example:
Johnny has an average of 156 heart rate for his 30 minute bike TT. If I calculate Johnny's zones using his LT and the Training Bible zones, this is what I come up with:
Zone 1 - 102-125
Zone 2 - 136-139
Zone 3 - 140-145
Zone 4 - 146- 155
Zone 5a - 156-159
Zone 5b - 160-164
Zone 5c - 165-170



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Determining Run Training Zones

In running we want to know our heart rate training zones as well. To make this as easy as possible, we will use a standard 30 minute TT. From this TT we will be able to determine the correct training zones. This is best if done on a flat uninterrupted path or trail.

Run test protocol:

After a 15 minute warm-up of easy running, finish with a few quick 20 seconds bursts to get your heart rate in the correct training zone.

The 30 minute TT begins.
At 10 minutes into the test, hit the 'Lap' button on your heart rate monitor, to get the average heart rate over the final 20 minutes of the test.
The average for the final 20 minutes is your Lactate Threshold or LT.
You should finish knowing you gave it everything you had.
15 minutes easy cool down.

Example:
Johnny has an average of 156 heart rate for his 30 minute run TT. If I calculate Johnny's zones using his LT and the Training Bible zones, this is what I come up with:
Zone 1 - 102-125
Zone 2 - 136-139
Zone 3 - 140-145
Zone 4 - 146- 155
Zone 5a - 156-159
Zone 5b - 160-164
Zone 5c - 165-170

IF you want to compare my method of choice to other methods you can read this:
http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/heartrate.html

IF you want to get educated on what the zones mean: http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/beinginthezone.html

If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them.

Train Smart, Train Right, and get fitter and faster. Isn't that the point?

Peace,
Mike


2005-08-30 7:15 PM
in reply to: #237705

Expert
1030
100025
Miller Place, Long Island
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Mike, you're awesome - Thanks

when can I expect to recieve the bill for all of the coaching?
2005-08-30 8:57 PM
in reply to: #237722

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
ha ha! you are funny! I'll send you the bill once you sign up and get started with D3 so that 2006 will be your best season ever. :-)
2005-08-31 6:34 AM
in reply to: #237705

User image

Champion
7036
5000200025
Sarasota, FL
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Mike,
I understand your frustration with the limitations of some of the HRmax formulas, but would caution those coming off the couch with little or no athletic background not to just rush out and attempt the field tests without either getting medical clearance from their doctor or doing the testing under the supervision of a qualified coach such as yourself.
Mark
2005-08-31 7:05 AM
in reply to: #237705

User image

Master
1210
1000100100
Saskatchewan
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!

I like the using zones based on percentage of heart rate range (max-resting) with the 95% of the maximum being taken as the highest observe bpm over hill interval training sets. Remarkably, my training zones line up with yours (my 85%HRR is zone 5a)even though I have different numbers and methods. I'm sold.

2005-08-31 7:07 AM
in reply to: #237705

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: Please read the Amendment to this post
First and FOREMOST, before starting any excercise program, please get medical clearance from your Dr. - If you haven't exercised before in your life or in the past year, PLEASE let him/her know you will be exercising and that you would like to check back with them in a month, just to make sure that you are not doing damage to yourself.

If you are new to exercise you may want to forgo the testing for a while and wear a heart rate monitor to 'observe' your HR at various points of exercise. For beginners, I have had them do as little as starting out with 5 minutes of walking - this may be as simple as one lap of track. Or I may have them start riding a recumbent bicycle in the gym, use the elliptical machine, or the Stair Master. Once way to observe your improvement in fitness is to watch to see how fast your HR comes down when you stop exercising. Time how long it takes your HR to drop about 20-30 beats as soon as you stop. When you first start exercising it may take over 3 minutes, but as you get more fit, it may drop as quick as 1 minute. Everyone will vary, everyone will have different HRs and don't get caught up "my friend can get thier HR higher" type of competition. It's very rare to find someone who has the same HR as you!

I hope this gives beginners a better understanding of starting a program. If you have any further questions, feel free to post them here, or PM me, I would be happy to help.

Big UPS to Mark for pointing out the error in my ways! :-)


2005-08-31 7:16 AM
in reply to: #237885

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
marina - my only issue is that HR max is a very hard test, it's not even close to anything fun (in my 18 years of racing I have NEVER done one) and I don't reccomend it to anyone. It's hard to recover from and personally, I don't think it healthy to go out there and find your max HR - isn't that called a heart attack? :-) I don't need to know my max and one point I like to make is how do you really know it's your max? if you are slightly dehydrated when you do the test, it will be off and there are a number of other factors that could change it on the day you test.


My preferred method is the LT test - first in the lab, and secondly in the field - in reality, I can guarantee you that 15 minutes into an LT test, you will KNOW how hard you can push, and what your actual LT is - and from here you calculate your HR Training Zones. There have been days I have pushed very hard in workouts and I have only seen 174 on my bike, and other days where I have seen 180 in a race - which is my max? I don't know and frankly I think its much easier to do the testing and get some much more accurate numbers.

I know you like the test, but your last sentence says it all - 'even though I have different numbers' - tells me that even that method may not be the most accurate. Go out, perform an LT test and see if your numbers are close. Please don't take offense to my post, I just do not see any reason to do a max HR test when the other methods are safer and in my opinion more accurate.
2005-08-31 7:19 AM
in reply to: #237886

User image

Elite
3022
20001000
Preferably on my bike somewhere
Subject: RE: Please read the Amendment to this post
Hi Mike,
Regarding recovery rate - a question. When I started biking more seriously earlier this year, if I pushed myself, it took me a long time to "recover" - meaning, if I climbed a hill, or simply picked up the pace, it would take a long time for me to catch my breath and get strength back in my legs. Now, after a few months of riding 3 times a week, it takes very little time for me to catch my breath and get my legs back. Is this the embodiment of improving recovery? Is this a function of heartrate or leg strength - I assumed it was muscular.

Yet another good thread by you - very educational, and I think your clarification is a good one.

Edited by D.Z. 2005-08-31 7:19 AM
2005-08-31 7:27 AM
in reply to: #237892

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Please read the Amendment to this post
D.Z. - first off, congrats on the improvement! That's the way to stick with it and be patient with your body.

To answer your question, in short you are correct; your muscular endurance has improved but so has your body's ability to supply O2 (oxygen) to your lower legs - so your heart has gotten stronger as well. You will continue to see this improvement for a long time as long as you go easy enough during the workouts that you can recover quickly - so keep at it. Have you timed how long it takes your HR to come down after climbing a hill or putting in a harder pace?

Thanks on the kind words, much appreciated!
2005-08-31 7:50 AM
in reply to: #237705

User image

Elite
2796
2000500100100252525
Texas
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Hey Mike! How do the other things that affect heart rate affect the LT? For example, I know my HR is elevated some due to pain when I'm running, and other times it's higher due to caffeine. It's also higher when I get less sleep. Is it just like flipping a switch when I hit that HR, or do the zones drift as your resting HR fluctuates? Maybe a little too much physiology to think about this early in the a.m.
2005-08-31 8:10 AM
in reply to: #237705

User image

Elite
4344
2000200010010010025
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!

:Hey Mike,

This question about recovery rate is really significant to people starting out.  Most people, including me want to know how long to train as well as how hard.  I think the lactate threshhold limit is a measure of peak output and so it more a measure of how hard to train.  The recovery limit is how much energy you can get back in the tank before tomorrow's workout.   The lactate threshhold is a circulatory limit for oxygen transfer.  The recovery limit measures the rate that cells process sugars and fats and so it is more a fuel limit. 

To build endurance, my opinion is that you need to train pretty close to the amount that you can just barely recover from each day.  That limit (a daily recovery limit) is a very individual number that depends on a person's genetics, age and history of conditioning; and it is an essential limit to know for designing a training program.  In my experience the daily recovery limit builds much more gradually with training than the lactate threshhold.  We have to work on it for years before we really maximize our potential for moderately long duration competitions.

So that leads to my question, how would you measure a person's daily recovery limit?

TW



2005-08-31 8:14 AM
in reply to: #237904

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Great question! All of those things affect your HR - which is why we use a range, and we use PE (perceived exertion) as well. So if you know the range for your LT, some days you may be upper end, and some days on the lower end. For the most part, when your breathing gets labored, and your legs starting filling with lactate, you have hit your LT, or pretty close to it. I feel something close to 'switch' when I hit LT - all of the sudden everything changes from my breathing to my mood, to how I deal with the pain. Your resting HR can be low or high and sometimes you will still be right on your LT and sometimes you won't. It all 'depends' on how tired you are or how rested you are. In a deep state of fatigue you will sometimes hit your HR a lot earlier than normal. This past winter I was hitting my bike LT at 125 - and it's normally at 155 - so that was some state of fatigue I was in. :-)

I hope this answers your questions. It's never too early for a good discussion :-)
2005-08-31 8:26 AM
in reply to: #237929

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Great points. Something I use is called the 'repeatability' factor. I wrote something about it in my LSD article here:
http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/lsd.htm

Bascially, there are a few ways to figure out your recovery limit. One is obviously trial and error. If you can't hit the same HRs the next day, then you went too hard the day before, right? With all things like sleep, nutrition, stress being equal. Secondly, you can give yourself a HR cap - around 90% of LT for most people - and see how that goes for a few workouts. I have even gone as far as making a spreadsheet with some factors I find important and have my athletes rate the 'recovery score' each day. That seems to work real well. if your score gets out of whack then you know you are on the edge of training where you shouldn't be.

In terms of how long and how hard you should train - most (80%) of your training time should be done at 90% of your LT or less. This is how we build aerobic fitness. That covers how hard - as for how long - it depends on what you can handle, what your background is and how much time you have to train...it varies for everyone.

I like the idea that for 'how hard you train' you use as a rule of thumb 'close to the amount that you can just barely recover from each day. - I like that and I would back off just a little from that to be safe. It's trial and error for all of us. I know from one day to the next how I will perform the next day, for the most part. Usually I know it's either going to be a good workout, or it may hurt a lot if I pushed a little too much the day before and didn't get the proper recovery. So, knowing my recovery score is a good indicator of how I will approach the next day or two of workouts. I hope this answers your question.
2005-08-31 8:39 AM
in reply to: #237705

User image

Champion
11641
50005000100050010025
Fairport, NY
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!

Hi Mike,

I have a question for you that I was planning on asking this in the Performance forum, but it seems appropriate for this thread.

For the Bike LT test, would you say that this can be accurately can be done on a Spinner that's set up reasonably close to my bike? During the winter this will probably be my only option.

Also, I have a run TT scheduled for tomorrow so if your ears start to burn around 8:30pm eastern, you'll know why.

2005-08-31 8:41 AM
in reply to: #237705

User image

Champion
11641
50005000100050010025
Fairport, NY
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!

Hi Mike,

I have a question for you that I was planning on asking this in the Performance forum, but it seems appropriate for this thread.

For the Bike LT test, would you say that this can be accurately can be done on a Spinner that's set up reasonably close to my bike? During the winter this will probably be my only option.

Also, I have a run TT scheduled for tomorrow so if your ears start to burn around 8:30pm eastern, you'll know why.

2005-08-31 8:58 AM
in reply to: #237953

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
I'll keep my ears tuned in - I hope the test goes well.

As far as the spin bike, my answer is yes you can use the spin bike. Of course you should use the bike you race on, and on a trainer, but if the spin bike and it's your only option that will work. Try your best to make each test on the spin bike consistent as possible. I try to have my athletes do an indoor and outdoor LT, b/c I tend to think they vary slightly.

Good luck with the testing!


2005-08-31 9:00 AM
in reply to: #237896

User image

Elite
3022
20001000
Preferably on my bike somewhere
Subject: RE: Please read the Amendment to this post
mikericci - 2005-08-31 7:27 AM

Have you timed how long it takes your HR to come down after climbing a hill or putting in a harder pace?

Thanks on the kind words, much appreciated!


No I have not. I just bought a HR (Timex has this HRM/Ironman 30lap dual function watch that seems pretty cool and I'm trying it out now) so I hope to be able to do that in the coming weeks. I am signed up for a 5k next weekend so I will be focusing on the run for the next week and a half. I'll see how it goes - the watch has a Recovery function so it should tell me how long it takes to get back.
2005-08-31 9:05 AM
in reply to: #237705

User image

Elite
4344
2000200010010010025
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!

Hey Mike,

About trial and error to find your recovery limit.  Yeah, you have to hit the recovery limit to know where it is.  But, the problem is that most of the time, our workouts are so varied (normally a good thing) that it is hard to quantify what was the pace and distance that was equal to the limit.  Plus, you really don't want to go way past your limit and get hurt or burned out.  I actually do a test where I run (or swim or bike but the same event each day) the same course and distance for a week trying to maintain the same pace each time (my so-called average training pace).  The times begin to increase (for me they always do.  see the last paragraph)  The pace and distance at the end of the week are just a bit over my recovery limit.  I have to design a training program that has days both harder and easier that the one at the end of the week.  It would be interesting to back down the pace to the point that I could actually do it every day for long time to know exactly what my limits are but that would be both boring and impractical as well as a poor training plan.

I think people sometimes mistakenly think their best times should be their average training pace and try to do that effort every day.  Big mistake.  Looking for that sustainable training effort that is matched to the recovery limit is the key for people starting out so that they get into the harness and stay there for a couple of years of steady improvement.

TW



Edited by tech_geezer 2005-08-31 9:17 AM

2005-08-31 9:08 AM
in reply to: #237978

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Please read the Amendment to this post
Sounds good! Good luck in the 5k!
2005-08-31 9:25 AM
in reply to: #237982

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
TW,

This a good thread, thanks for jumping in, it makes me think. :-) So - here is something I do - similar to what you do. BUT, Let me preface this with the fact that I have been training for years and in most days I can tell you HR within a beat without looking at the HRM. I am not bragging, just telling you how much experience plays into all of this. Knowing my HR zones very well and the trails and courses that I run is important as well.

Ok - getting back to the point - I run a lot of the same courses and trails, sometimes clockwise, sometimes counter clock wise. I know my times up certain climbs, certain sections of trails, and on and on, so anytime I am out there, I know if I am 'on' or not just be looking to see what my time is over a certain section or what my HR is in relation to what it should be. So - I have a few out/back trails (usually prettty flat to rolling terrain) that I will do for a period of 3-4 weeks every Tuesday (for example) and see what the time is over that course at the same exact HR as the week before. Typically as I get more fit, the time drops, the pace picks up and the HR stays the same. So, your idea of the "backing down the pace to the point that I could actually do it every day for long time to know exactly what my limits are" is a good one - but why not just pick out 3-4 different run loops and see what the times are over a period of 4 weeks? IF the 4th run of the week (for example) is really slow, but you back off the 2nd week, and the 4th run gets back to your regular pace, then you know you needed to go easier on the earlier runs in the week. I hope this makes sense.

One other way to tell the recovery limit and one that I use often is resting heart rate in the morning when I get up. Usually this tells me pretty accurately if I am recovered from the day before. This is something you should DEFINITELY track on an ongoing basis.

Your last paragraph: "I think people sometimes mistakenly think their best times should be their average training pace and try to do that effort every day. Big mistake. Looking for that sustainable training effort that is matched to the recovery limit is the key for people starting out so that they get into the harness and stay there for a couple of years of steady improvement."

I couldn't agree more. I get emails and see messages posted on this board about people trying to run 5k race pace every day and they wonder why they aren't getting faster - it's mind boggling. Most people don't understand that building a strong aerobic capillary system allows more oxygen to be supplied to the muscles. Building a huge capillary system also allows more pathways for waste (lactate) to be removed from the muscles and in the end allows them to run/bike/swim faster. Simple physiology, but for some reason, a very hard message to get across...


2005-08-31 11:18 AM
in reply to: #237705

User image

Elite
4344
2000200010010010025
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!

Hey Mike,

I think this is an excellent thread, too.   Please, Mike (and all others) recognize that I am certainly not criticizing any of your training advice or methods.  I think you are correct that a self test of lactate threshhold is a better indicator of peak output than the max heart rate formula.  By logical extenstion, percentages of the LT, either lab measured or from a self test, are much more accurate training guides those based on the generic maximum heart rate formula.  I am just adding some unsolicited advice of my own to the discussion. 

My point was that both lactate threshhold and maximum heart rate measure peak output.  Some percentage of either number can tell you how fast to train but not how long.  For beginners, I think the right duration is a harder number to pin down than the pace.   My objection to the various programs for beginners that are available is that they don't account for differences in the new athlete's ability to recovery or give the beginner any way to begin to learn his or her limits of recovery.  There is one starting level of intensity and one ramp rate for all to get from couch to sprint or whatever.  If there is any individualizaiton in the program, it is based on the peak output (either max heart rate or LT).  I think you need two very different numbers to individualize a person's training program:  a maximum output and a recovery limit.  I find it useful or at least measurable to characterize the recovery limit in the average pace and duration workout that I can sustain day-after-day.  To refine the measurement technique and eliminate uncorrelated stressors, I do the same run everyday for a week.  Of course, I log every other run/bike/swim for the rest of the year too, but the one that I use for planning purposes comes from the end of the test week.  It helps me to get the ego out of the training plan. 

 I recommend this test to my beginner friends with the caution that they start with 3 or 4 days of week of walk/run and gradually add a day every week or so to get to a 6 or 7 days straight before trying it.   The important thing is to find your limit and start building on it and not go way past it and get hurt.  So, easy does it guys and gals. 

I find that the morning heart rate number is not too informative for me for overtraining.  It fluctuates too much with the randomness of the waking process.  These fluctuations are just as big as ones for onset of overtraining.  I used to keep track of the orthostatic heart rate jump (change in heart rate from lying to standing) in the morning.  This seemed to be a more accurate measure of recovery.   It is an annoyance to take 10 minutes out of the morning routine to do it.  If you can't do it every day, then the trends are just not apparent.  I haven't done it in several months.

Something that I actually do monitor (because it is so easy with my particular HRM) is the calories of exercise per week from the heart rate monitor.   From experience, I know that 3400-3600 calories per week from the Polar formula is pretty close to my overtraining limit.  Your mileage may vary.  Not everybody has one of the fancier heart rate monitors that computes calories.  The total minutes of training times 10 is pretty close for me for calories.

Interesting discussion.  Thank you Mike for providing your experience and a free bit of professional coaching for the members here.  Most of the people here, including me, are completely self-coached, not even any high school training to fall back on.   It makes a world of difference to get some well-thought out training advice.

Have a great day.  I gotta get some work done.

TW



2005-08-31 12:30 PM
in reply to: #237705

User image

Elite
3022
20001000
Preferably on my bike somewhere
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Mike and tech - Great discussion here, I am learning tons and I am paying nothing for it. It is good to see that there are different ways to skin a cat (one of my FAVORITE expressions) when it comes to training.

Mike, in another thread you said to me (I'll paraphrase - don't have time to search now) that I shouldn't train differently than I plan to compete. But in your last post you said that people shouldn't try to run their 5k pace every day. That seems contradictory to me. I can certainly understand that we need to vary our routines, so I'm not holding you to black and white here. My question is, how often, IF EVER, should I train at a race pace? Never, often, half the time? Or are these 2 examples different enough that I shouldn't compare the statements?
2005-08-31 1:01 PM
in reply to: #238185

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
D.Z.

I more than likely said exactly what you wrore but in a different context - I am sure what I meant was that you prepare to race well, you need to go into each workout with a plan, proper nutrition, equipment check, you know your HR zones for the workout etc. I don't think I meant that you train at race pace everyday. I may have even said on a race simulation workout you should train at race pace efforts. That would make more sense to me - so the quote "I shouldn't train differently than I plan to compete" doesn't mean everyday and if that is what I implied, I apologize.

So, to answer your question - we have different levels of race pace weekly for each sport:
For swimming we can work at race pace 50% of the time, b/c the recovery time is very quick from swim to swim
Cycling: the time spent at race pace is somewhere around 25-30% of total time cycling
Running: the time spent at race pace is somewhere around 20-25% of total running time.

So if you run 2 hours per week (120 minutes), then 36 minutes a week should be at race pace. If you bike 5 hours per week, then up to 90 minutes per week should be at race pace.

Of course these workouts are done as you are getting close to an A race, not all year round.

Let me know if you have more questions on this - these are great questions.
2005-08-31 5:56 PM
in reply to: #238205

User image

Elite
3022
20001000
Preferably on my bike somewhere
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Gotcha - thanks for the clarification. I figured that is what you meant, but you know what happens when you assume...

So - when I am prepping for a race - say one that is 9 days away, I should be following this type of routine until 5 days before the race when I start to slow down a bit so I am amped and ready to run...
2005-08-31 6:09 PM
in reply to: #238430

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Can you be more specific with your question? Maybe lay out what you have in mind for the next 9 days?
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! Rss Feed  
 
 
of 24