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2011-07-26 7:40 AM

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Subject: Training Pacing

Long story short, I had a coaching class this past weekend.  Learned a lot about base building training/ pacing.  I'd like to finish my first ultra (50k) at about 12 min/ mile or under.  Based on this, I should be training at 13:26 for under 6 miles, 13:56 up to 10, 14:20 up to 15 and 14:37 for up to 20 and more.  But, knowing that my ultra is going to have major hills I will be walking/ fast walking, should I up my pacing for my training runs- especially when I'm not on hillier trails or roads?  I think I already know my answer (yes) but thought I'd ask for some thoughts.  As the next few weeks pass I will be adding some sharpening work (pace runs, hill fartleks, etc...) to the base I have been ad continue to work on.

Thanks!

Erik



2011-07-26 8:48 AM
in reply to: #3614796

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Subject: RE: Training Pacing

Those paces you referenced really confused me. If you're specifically training for a 50k, I'd suggest using training paces similar to what you'd use for marathon training. At 12-min miles, you're only looking at another hour past marathon distance, so I'd expect training and pacing to be fairly similar.

If your race has major hills, you won't be running steady, even paces. My limited experience with hilly 50k races is that I walk the steep uphills and most of the steep downhills, especially if they're rocky or technical. That means I'm usually jogging the "flats" slightly slower than marathon pace. If I'm targetting an overall 12:00 pace, I know I'll see some 20-minute miles in the hills and 11:00 minute miles on the flats.

I don't worry about pace on my long runs, and tend to run what I'm comfortable with. In the summer, that can be 2:00 (minutes per mile) slower than marathon pace, but usually it's around 1:00 slower. My shorter runs during the week are all over the place from a pace perspective, depending on the type of run, ther terrain, the weather, and how I feel.

Good luck with your race! At the end of the day, I suspect the pace of your training runs won't make too big a difference. The biggest benefit comes from putting in the time and the miles!

2011-07-26 11:04 AM
in reply to: #3614943

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Subject: RE: Training Pacing

Sorry about the confusion caused!!  I tried to keep the post short.  The different paces I listed were paces based on the distances of the training runs.  I did look at a few marathon training paces based on the 12 minutes per mile and those were pretty much the average between them. 

I was thinking that my pace would be faster on the "flat" sections which was why I was thinking I should train at a faster rate.  I know the pacing charts I was looking at are guidelines, but it's the first time I've ever looked at them to create a training plan.  I usually just run on a whim, except for planned long runs.  Some days I'll run 5 or 6 at a 7:30 to 8 minute pace, other days I'll run 4 or 5 at about a 9 minute pace.  My longer runs (10-16) are usually around 11+ on the trails (9:20 on the road).  The reasoning I learned at the coaching seminar for the slower pacing was that it teaches the body to better create and use energy more efficiently to help create and replenish energy stores (though it was much more scientific than that).

I run the trails where the race is regularly (I love running trails and these are the closest).  I did 23 there about a month ago and averaged 12:47 with the fast walking up some hills and walking other stretches as well towards the end.

 

Thanks again!

2011-07-26 11:15 AM
in reply to: #3614796

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Subject: RE: Training Pacing

Remember, the pace you end up averaging for your 50K will be entirely dependent upon the terrain.  Similarly, the pace you're likely to average for any given training run will also be largely dependent upon the terrain.  Pace I'd run if training on roads is very different than the pace I average in training on technical trails.

Another major factor that plays into average pace in an ultra is aid station stops.  Some amount of time in your race will be spent not moving at all, while refilling bottles/packs, eating or grabbing food, getting stuff out of a drop bag, etc.  Inevitably, and especially the longer the race, aid station time will bring down your average pace.  Another way to think about it, the average pace you'll actually be *running* during your 50K will be quicker than the average pace you'll end up with for your race.

So, it's not so simple to just come up with a goal for average pace for any given ultra and work out your training paces accordingly.  Rather, you'll need to take into account relative/perceived effort you can maintain for your 50K, and work out appropriate training paces based on that.

2011-07-26 6:36 PM
in reply to: #3614796

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Subject: RE: Training Pacing
Thank you Steve!  I hadn't even considered time spent at aide stations refueling or taking care of anything else (a quick stop in a corn field...) that might pop up!  I was only thinking moving time and I will have to consider that.  I will have to get used to that, too.  So, I think I'll stop for a couple minutes on one or two of my long runs- not to account for stopping time, but to get into the stop start of the run.  I have stopped occasionally on runs to tie shoes, mother nature call, but never for more than a  minute or so. 
2011-07-26 7:50 PM
in reply to: #3614796

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Subject: RE: Training Pacing
Dude, with respect, you got it backwards. You don`t pick your training paces based on your "goal time". That is foolish, causes injuries (although in your case probably would cause you to underperform)

Anyways, get a copy of pfitzinger's Advanced Marathoning. Follow the 70 mile a week plan. Base your training paces on a recently well performed race. I see you got a 128 min half done in october, so use that.

Unless you are used to hill running, don't do much. It will break your knees, your shins, maybe your back and your toes will get knarly.

Now you may be concerned that you are training on flats instead of hills and yes, that is unfortunate. But nothing you can do about it. Build up your base before you start the hills.

Ideally you should get to the point where many of your runs (temp/long/marathon pace/easy) are done on terrain similair to the terrain you plan on racing. That gets you the best prepared. However, depending on the terrain and your condition will dictate how often you can train on that terrain.

The reason I say that you will underperform is that your training paces for long runs seem conservative given your half time.

Oh, read your other post.

Anyways. Sounds like you are on the right track. I would just comment on what Steve said about aid stations. They are not truck stops. People sit there and have picnics. Don't do that. Swap your stuff out and keep going. Shouldn't take more than 2-3 min.



2011-07-28 4:47 PM
in reply to: #3614796

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Subject: RE: Training Pacing

I think pfitz's 70 mile plan is awesome - good suggestion.  I'm not one to follow paces and things, though I probably should. I just put in the miles the best I can and try to do some pace work here and there and run on different terrains. 

 

I made it a point to be in and out of aid stations real quick for my 50 miler.  There were about 10 aid stations and time can tick away very quickly.  When I train I use my car as an aid station and leave the clock running during my entire run so I can get a better of idea of how quick I'm getting through it.  It will give me a better idea of finish times.

DH - good tip about building base before hitting hills. 

2011-08-01 9:50 PM
in reply to: #3614796

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Subject: RE: Training Pacing
Thanks for the replies!  A buddy (an ultra runner now in Bolivia) trains using Friel's HR training book.  I ended up giving that a read through and am going to build my base based on HR zones.  I'll end up with 3 weeks in the 60's until my tapering before the race.  I already run the trails where the ultra is so I have a great idea about the hills.  I just haven't run the whole loop (that's the ultra- 31 mile loop) at once.  I'll check out Pfitz's 70 training as well!  Thanks again!
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