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2011-08-26 11:40 AM
in reply to: #3660151

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?

It's officially true!  We really CAN argue about everything!!!!!!

With no packet pickup, where else will I wear all my triathlon an race tshirts?

Personally, I like getting everything the day before.  I can prep the bike, the run stuff, everything I need, all I need to do is show up race morning.  Perhaps it's because I have lots of local tris to choose from, but it's really no big deal for me.  The ones I have to travel 2+ hours for, I do day of race pickup if offered.  If they don't have day of race pickup and it's far away, and I am not making a weekend of it, I don't do the race.  Pretty simple.  I also think it's just part of the experience for me.

And having been intimately involved with an RD and his volunteer coordinator (that offers race day pickup for $20), it's not simply an issue of staffing it right.  We always hope enough volunteers show up just to man the course.  We could sure use those volunteers manning the late pickup to do other work, but it always gets done.  There's no recourse for a volunteer that flakes, other than divert other resources. 



2011-08-26 11:50 AM
in reply to: #3660151

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?

 It is apparent a lot of people have no clue as to what it takes to put on a triathlon and it appears they really don't care about the volunteers.  The majority of tri's in the South are fundraisers for non profits and many just break even.  If you raise rates the participants rant about that.  I challenge people to join a race committee and see what really goes on behind the scenes.  I joined a triathlon race committee this year and it has been eye opening to me.  I have been on several run/walk race committees and they are simple to put on compared to a tri.  The time spent by VOLUNTEERS for a tri is enormous.

I have never raced a large race (over 500) where I could packet pick-up race morning.  I have done large races from Florida to Texas and each one of them I have had to pick up the day before (even non-WTC races).  Gulf Coast comes to mind.  Someone look at River Cities in Shreveport where they will give your spot away and there is a line waiting for those spots.

2011-08-26 11:50 AM
in reply to: #3660748

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
H20 Killer - 2011-08-26 10:13 AM

the bear - 2011-08-26 9:36 AM
mrbbrad - 2011-08-26 9:24 AM Maybe some RD's could be more open to new ideas instead of simply suggesting that anyone who doesn't like something should go start their own race.
And, no maybe about it, most triathletes need additional insight into what goes into putting on a race before disagreeing with how a RD deploys his resources.

Let me point out you that these people are your CUSTOMERS and should be treated as such, and with great respect.  Your continued arrogance and anger at the people that pay for the event is bewildering and, frankly, disrepectful.

You are the RD.  You set the price.  We pay.  If you can't staff your races, raise your rates or get out of the business.  I don't need, require, want, etc  any insight into your job or your problems or difficulties.  That is why I pay an entry fee - so that you worry with it.  It is your job to do your job, which is to put on successful and safe races.  Get that through your head and stop the belligerent whining.

Why don't you set up a "Woe Is Me" booth at your next race and see how many people who just paid $75+ to do your race really care.

 

Wow.  Really?  I'd like to see the numbers that you'd pay if races had to pay everyone who worked the race.  I see no disrespect in thebear's answer but I see venom and attitude in yours.  

While customers are important educating customers is as well.  I have customers make demands on me all the time.  Sometimes I simply can't give them exactly what they want.  Usually they want to know why.  Why can't you send a technician to my site in BFE, USA next week?  Oh, because you're already booked for next week? Now they are more reasonable about understanding why we can't meet their expections. 

2011-08-26 11:54 AM
in reply to: #3660151

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
I'm one that prefers packet pickup day before so I can get everything ready before race morning.

But I really don't understand the frustration with early packet pickup. Every race I've done the pickup process is clearly laid out beforehand--before you register. The RD decides how they want to run the race,  if you don't like it find another one.
2011-08-26 12:01 PM
in reply to: #3660820

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?

zed707 - 2011-08-26 10:54 AM I'm one that prefers packet pickup day before so I can get everything ready before race morning.

But I really don't understand the frustration with early packet pickup. Every race I've done the pickup process is clearly laid out beforehand--before you register. The RD decides how they want to run the race,  if you don't like it find another one.

 

x 1,000,000,000

2011-08-26 12:03 PM
in reply to: #3660748

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
H20 Killer - 2011-08-26 12:13 PM

the bear - 2011-08-26 9:36 AM
mrbbrad - 2011-08-26 9:24 AM Maybe some RD's could be more open to new ideas instead of simply suggesting that anyone who doesn't like something should go start their own race.
And, no maybe about it, most triathletes need additional insight into what goes into putting on a race before disagreeing with how a RD deploys his resources.

Let me point out you that these people are your CUSTOMERS and should be treated as such, and with great respect.  Your continued arrogance and anger at the people that pay for the event is bewildering and, frankly, disrepectful.

You are the RD.  You set the price.  We pay.  If you can't staff your races, raise your rates or get out of the business.  I don't need, require, want, etc  any insight into your job or your problems or difficulties.  That is why I pay an entry fee - so that you worry with it.  It is your job to do your job, which is to put on successful and safe races.  Get that through your head and stop the belligerent whining.

Why don't you set up a "Woe Is Me" booth at your next race and see how many people who just paid $75+ to do your race really care.

 



If it is a race put on by a for-profit RD, then I usually have no mercy on them for screw-ups and cutting corners to put more money in their pockets.

But the vast majority of local tri's are non-profit events put on by volunteers for the benefit of local charities.  I've worked on the organizing committee for a few Olys, and there is a ton of work, starting a year ahead of time, that goes on behind the scenes that most of the partipants never see. 

If you're concerned about arrogance, I suggest you first take a look in the mirror before throwing rocks at someone else.
Bear may not always be the most diplomatic person in the world, but he's honest, ethical and is as straight a shooter as there is. 

Mark


2011-08-26 12:14 PM
in reply to: #3660811

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
peewee - 2011-08-26 11:50 AM

 It is apparent a lot of people have no clue as to what it takes to put on a triathlon and it appears they really don't care about the volunteers.  The majority of tri's in the South are fundraisers for non profits and many just break even.

I don't buy the majority statement you made.  Most here are run by pro organizations and are for profit and I live in the South as well.

And, you are right, I really don't care about the ins and outs of putting on a triathlon.  I go to triathlons to compete, not volunteer.  It's the same way that when I go to a store to buy something I could really care less about the background of the store.  I do always thank the volunteers and am happy they have decided to use their time in that way.  But, it is not incumbent upon me to be all weepy and touchy feely about what it takes to put on a tri.

My family puts in a huge amount time annually running swim meets and I am keenly aware of what it takes to run an event.  As a person who runs a meet I have never resorted to whining about all it takes to the participants and telling them they need to know more.  The sole goal is to put on a successful and safe event.  Whether people know about all it takes is really not relevant at all.



Edited by H20 Killer 2011-08-26 12:16 PM
2011-08-26 12:14 PM
in reply to: #3660151

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?

I dunno, I get the "why" part of it, but having no race day packet pickup will stop me from doing races that I'd otherwise really like to participate in.

Thing is, I live in the southern 'burbs of Chicago.  There are a TON of cool races on the north side.  But - if I have to take 3+ hours to get there and back just to pick up my race packet?  I won't sign up for the race.  A lot of times I know that even if I didn't mind getting out there the day before, my schedule won't allow that kind of time for it.

Yes, it's aggravating, but I'm not asking them to change how they do it.  Those races do well enough without me there, I'm sure!   

2011-08-26 12:25 PM
in reply to: #3660833

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
triOK - 2011-08-26 1:01 PM

zed707 - 2011-08-26 10:54 AM I'm one that prefers packet pickup day before so I can get everything ready before race morning.

But I really don't understand the frustration with early packet pickup. Every race I've done the pickup process is clearly laid out beforehand--before you register. The RD decides how they want to run the race,  if you don't like it find another one.

 

x 1,000,000,000

Did you stop to think that's part of the point? There often aren't other ones to find that don't also have logistical problems. Sure, we all have choice. Some are asking for what they feel are better choices.

It's interesting to me that any number of business models can and do get critiqued on this site, but question the practices of triathlon races and watch the hackles come up. I suppose we should stick to banks and Internet service providers. We can (almost) all agree they are evil.

2011-08-26 12:28 PM
in reply to: #3660756

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
GoFaster - 2011-08-26 12:16 PM
kaburns1214 - 2011-08-26 11:25 AM

the bear - 2011-08-26 10:36 AM
mrbbrad - 2011-08-26 9:24 AM Maybe some RD's could be more open to new ideas instead of simply suggesting that anyone who doesn't like something should go start their own race.
And, no maybe about it, most triathletes need additional insight into what goes into putting on a race before disagreeing with how a RD deploys his resources.

Being an RD as well, I think a lot of participants don't realize the sheer number of man hours and volunteers needed to run an event.  For my races, I offer day before and race day packet pick up.  I usually do something to strongly encourage people to pick up the day before, simply so that I'll need fewer volunteers at registration the day of the race.  Being able to spread man hours over two days is a huge help and let me use the "extra" people for other jobs on race morning. 

With the exception of 2 day events, any of my local Tri races are race day pickup only, WTC HIM excluded.  (When I say local, I mean within 300km.)  The part that confuses me in the argument about volunteers time, is that you are now using resources for an extra day.  Volunteers now need to be around on both Saturday and Sunday, or whatever day, rather than just race day.

And you're right, I have no idea about what goes into putting on a Tri, however it seems interesting that you're getting a lot of feedback about the fact people don't appreciate having to make an extra commute to the race site.  The fact that the event is popular, is not a clear indication that there aren't areas to improve.

I have a group of hard core volunteers (including my husband, my mother, my best friend) who are willing to work BOTH the day before the race and the day of the race. 

If I don't have pick up the day before the race I need 24 man hours on race day to do packet pick up on the morning of the race (8 people times 3 hours per person).  If I do it the day before (or get a lot of people to come pick up the day before) I only need 12 man hours on race morning (4 people times 3 hours per person).  I then have 12 man hours to use else where on race morning. 

Note -- for my races people have the option of picking up race morning.

Also let me stress while there are lots of professional race management companies out there, I work for free (and in doing so donates hundreds or hours of my time each yeaR) and 100% of my proceeds go to the listed charity.  Its not too shabby to be a single person operation and have raised over $30,000 in less than 5 years. 

2011-08-26 12:47 PM
in reply to: #3660880

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
mrbbrad - 2011-08-26 11:25 AM
triOK - 2011-08-26 1:01 PM

zed707 - 2011-08-26 10:54 AM I'm one that prefers packet pickup day before so I can get everything ready before race morning.

But I really don't understand the frustration with early packet pickup. Every race I've done the pickup process is clearly laid out beforehand--before you register. The RD decides how they want to run the race,  if you don't like it find another one.

 

x 1,000,000,000

Did you stop to think that's part of the point? There often aren't other ones to find that don't also have logistical problems. Sure, we all have choice. Some are asking for what they feel are better choices.

It's interesting to me that any number of business models can and do get critiqued on this site, but question the practices of triathlon races and watch the hackles come up. I suppose we should stick to banks and Internet service providers. We can (almost) all agree they are evil.

I strongly believe that RDs will do their best to put on the best race possible with the resources they have available.  The ones that do this, I fully support, both with my entry fees and by volunteering when I don't race.  The ones who do not, I avoid.

 

I would MUCH rather have adequate support on the course (i.e. at aid stations, monitoring turns, and even race officials) than have race day packet pick-up.  That's just me.



2011-08-26 12:57 PM
in reply to: #3660860

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
H20 Killer - 2011-08-26 10:14 AM
peewee - 2011-08-26 11:50 AM

 It is apparent a lot of people have no clue as to what it takes to put on a triathlon and it appears they really don't care about the volunteers.  The majority of tri's in the South are fundraisers for non profits and many just break even.

I don't buy the majority statement you made.  Most here are run by pro organizations and are for profit and I live in the South as well.

And, you are right, I really don't care about the ins and outs of putting on a triathlon.  I go to triathlons to compete, not volunteer.  It's the same way that when I go to a store to buy something I could really care less about the background of the store.  I do always thank the volunteers and am happy they have decided to use their time in that way.  But, it is not incumbent upon me to be all weepy and touchy feely about what it takes to put on a tri.

My family puts in a huge amount time annually running swim meets and I am keenly aware of what it takes to run an event.  As a person who runs a meet I have never resorted to whining about all it takes to the participants and telling them they need to know more.  The sole goal is to put on a successful and safe event.  Whether people know about all it takes is really not relevant at all.

From my readng, it wasn't a RD who was doing the whining

2011-08-26 1:48 PM
in reply to: #3660748

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
H20 Killer - 2011-08-26 11:13 AM

the bear - 2011-08-26 9:36 AM
mrbbrad - 2011-08-26 9:24 AM Maybe some RD's could be more open to new ideas instead of simply suggesting that anyone who doesn't like something should go start their own race.
And, no maybe about it, most triathletes need additional insight into what goes into putting on a race before disagreeing with how a RD deploys his resources.

Let me point out you that these people are your CUSTOMERS and should be treated as such, and with great respect.  Your continued arrogance and anger at the people that pay for the event is bewildering and, frankly, disrepectful.

You are the RD.  You set the price.  We pay.  If you can't staff your races, raise your rates or get out of the business.  I don't need, require, want, etc  any insight into your job or your problems or difficulties.  That is why I pay an entry fee - so that you worry with it.  It is your job to do your job, which is to put on successful and safe races.  Get that through your head and stop the belligerent whining.

Why don't you set up a "Woe Is Me" booth at your next race and see how many people who just paid $75+ to do your race really care.

 

I fail to see the arrogance and belligerence that you’re finding in the statement of mine you quoted. People are offering solutions based on the economies of the situation that they apparently do not understand. I am suggesting that they get that understanding before they comment on things that they only have seen one side of. Nor do I see any whining from me. My race does what the OP wants. I have race day pickup as well as the day before. Those who help us alleviate the race-day rush are rewarded with a chance to win $1,000 worth of door prizes as well as missing a queue on race day. Those who don’t are can’t are allowed to pick up their packet on race day. Yes I am a race director, This is not a business for me, though I try to run it like one. I spend over 120 hours a year on this race, but I have never taken a dollar from the operations of the triathlon, and don’t plan to.  Despite your misperceptions, the primary reason I do this is for the participants. I am a first of all a triathlete, I do this through a triathlon club that I administer, with the help of our members. I do this for the club members and for the triathlon community as a whole. Our stated goals are: 1.      Produce a safe, fun, competitive race that provides good value to the participants, and2.      Raise funds for our two beneficiary charitable organizations. So you see it’s a fine line I have to walk. Raise the prices and I start to fail at goal #1. Increase the costs and I become less effective at goal #2. As I’ve maintained throughout this thread, it’s always a matter of proper allocation of resources to provide the greatest benefit to the participant.  It’s easy for an uninformed participant to say, “It would be so easy to do this,” without realizing how that would upset that balance between cost and benefit. So far we’ve been successful. That $75+ fee you cite? Try $50. I know no other race in this region that offers a chip-timed race with an open water swim, a technical fabric T-shirt and the amenities we offer for anywhere near that price. I do an extensive post-race survey (98.5% satisfaction level last year) and try to follow the suggestions that make good economic sense. For example, the biggest complaint last year was from the 5-6 women who did not like the way the T-shirts fit. This year they have the option of ordering a woman’s style/sized shirt. Part 2 of the success is that last year we raised several thousand dollars for our beneficiary charities. Oh, and we did all that in our second year with only 250 participants. So be my guest, continue to criticize without the insight you abhor, I’m sure you somehow feel real good about yourself and what you accomplish.
2011-08-26 1:51 PM
in reply to: #3660944

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
ChrisM - 2011-08-26 1:57 PM

From my readng, it wasn't a RD who was doing the whining

Who did you think was whining in this thread?  The OP was perfectly reasonable, but was met with this, "Why don't you become a race director,then you can do things the way you want?"  From a RD.

 

2011-08-26 1:51 PM
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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
Sorry for the big block of text. Posting from the iPhone removes all the formatting.
2011-08-26 1:52 PM
in reply to: #3660888

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
kaburns1214 - 2011-08-26 1:28 PM
GoFaster - 2011-08-26 12:16 PM
kaburns1214 - 2011-08-26 11:25 AM

the bear - 2011-08-26 10:36 AM
mrbbrad - 2011-08-26 9:24 AM Maybe some RD's could be more open to new ideas instead of simply suggesting that anyone who doesn't like something should go start their own race.
And, no maybe about it, most triathletes need additional insight into what goes into putting on a race before disagreeing with how a RD deploys his resources.

Being an RD as well, I think a lot of participants don't realize the sheer number of man hours and volunteers needed to run an event.  For my races, I offer day before and race day packet pick up.  I usually do something to strongly encourage people to pick up the day before, simply so that I'll need fewer volunteers at registration the day of the race.  Being able to spread man hours over two days is a huge help and let me use the "extra" people for other jobs on race morning. 

With the exception of 2 day events, any of my local Tri races are race day pickup only, WTC HIM excluded.  (When I say local, I mean within 300km.)  The part that confuses me in the argument about volunteers time, is that you are now using resources for an extra day.  Volunteers now need to be around on both Saturday and Sunday, or whatever day, rather than just race day.

And you're right, I have no idea about what goes into putting on a Tri, however it seems interesting that you're getting a lot of feedback about the fact people don't appreciate having to make an extra commute to the race site.  The fact that the event is popular, is not a clear indication that there aren't areas to improve.

I have a group of hard core volunteers (including my husband, my mother, my best friend) who are willing to work BOTH the day before the race and the day of the race. 

If I don't have pick up the day before the race I need 24 man hours on race day to do packet pick up on the morning of the race (8 people times 3 hours per person).  If I do it the day before (or get a lot of people to come pick up the day before) I only need 12 man hours on race morning (4 people times 3 hours per person).  I then have 12 man hours to use else where on race morning. 

Note -- for my races people have the option of picking up race morning.

Also let me stress while there are lots of professional race management companies out there, I work for free (and in doing so donates hundreds or hours of my time each yeaR) and 100% of my proceeds go to the listed charity.  Its not too shabby to be a single person operation and have raised over $30,000 in less than 5 years. 

I like your explanation.

Offering both race day and prior day seems to be ideal.

Seems like races in the South, don't offer race day pick up or I have heard some in TX charge extra to pick it up on race day.

I like to pick up before race day but understand some folks travel 50-200 miles to do the race. Having to go a second time is a big time suck. With gas $3.50-4/gallon waste of money.



2011-08-26 1:59 PM
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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
Goosedog - 2011-08-26 1:51 PM
ChrisM - 2011-08-26 1:57 PM

From my readng, it wasn't a RD who was doing the whining

Who did you think was whining in this thread?  The OP was perfectly reasonable, but was met with this, "Why don't you become a race director,then you can do things the way you want?"  From a RD.

 

and I'll stand by it as an offer to anyone who doesn't like the way things are done. Pick another race to do, or start your own. Down here there are not nearly enough races. BTW, what have you contributed to this thread other than criticism of other posters?
2011-08-26 2:07 PM
in reply to: #3661079

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?

the bear - 2011-08-26 2:59 PM

and I'll stand by it as an offer to anyone who doesn't like the way things are done. Pick another race to do, or start your own. Down here there are not nearly enough races. BTW, what have you contributed to this thread other than criticism of other posters?

Contratulations.  It's similar to a cyclist suggesting a design improvement only to be told they should start their own bike company if they don't like it.  It's I feel, it is rude and juvenille.

To answer your question, I contribute what I want within the posting guidelines.  If you don't like it, pick another thread or start your own.

 

 

2011-08-26 2:08 PM
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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?

the bear - 2011-08-26 1:48 PM So be my guest, continue to criticize without the insight you abhor, I’m sure you somehow feel real good about yourself and what you accomplish.

No nearly as good as you obviously feel about yourself and all the super awesome great things you do so selflessly, but feel compelled to detail in minutiae on this site. 

I still don't give a hoot about what it takes to run an event that I pay money to participate in.  It's called an entry fee and designed to cover the costs of the event.  As the RD it is your job to make sure it is adequate.  I don't need your accounting, just a good race.

And, what have you contributed to this thread other than telling us how awesome you are and how we should be so appreciative of all you do?  There are tons of triathlons out there.  You are now the only RD I have ever run into with such a bizarre attitude about your customers.



Edited by H20 Killer 2011-08-26 2:11 PM
2011-08-26 2:17 PM
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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
How is having a primary goal "Produce a safe, fun, competitive race that provides good value to the participants" a bizarre attitude?
2011-08-26 2:21 PM
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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?

the bear - 2011-08-26 2:51 PM Sorry for the big block of text. Posting from the iPhone removes all the formatting.

That was from an iPhone? I'm impressed. I gave up early on try to follow the forums on my iPhone.



2011-08-26 2:29 PM
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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
the bear - 2011-08-26 4:29 AM

Why don't you become a race director,then you can do things the way you want? We can always use additional races and race directors with novel ideas on how to do things more efficiently. Other than that you also have the options of only registering for in-town races or those that have race day packet pickup.

 

pretty sure the attitude they are referring to is coming out of the gate with this comment.  hardly the attitude a customer/potential customer wants to hear when asking a question.



Edited by antlimon166 2011-08-26 2:31 PM
2011-08-26 2:30 PM
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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
Goosedog - 2011-08-26 3:07 PM

If you don't like it, pick another thread or start your own.

 

Now that was funny.

2011-08-26 2:34 PM
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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?

the bear - 2011-08-26 2:17 PM How is having a primary goal "Produce a safe, fun, competitive race that provides good value to the participants" a bizarre attitude?

I dunno, maybe because that is sandwiched between layers of self congratulations on your hours worked, telling us to become RDs if we don't like a race, telling us we need to know how a race works, berating us for commenting on race policies, and that we must be more reverent to all you and your volunteers do.  

2011-08-26 2:38 PM
in reply to: #3661126

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Subject: RE: What's the deal with packet pick-ups?!?
mrbbrad - 2011-08-26 12:21 PM

the bear - 2011-08-26 2:51 PM Sorry for the big block of text. Posting from the iPhone removes all the formatting.

That was from an iPhone? I'm impressed. I gave up early on try to follow the forums on my iPhone.

/Hijack on [since it's more interesting than the discussion and these folks really need to get out and sweat this anger out], no problems with my Android!!!    (although it also doesn't recognize hard returns.....)

/Hijack off



Edited by ChrisM 2011-08-26 2:39 PM
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