Whats the best way to measure swim progress?

thats alot of questions to answer at once, and my best advice is to get proper swim coaching so you don't reinforce bad habits.

beyond that one of the first things you'll notice is that you may not be able to take many stokes till you need to take another breath, and once you get to 6-9 strokes per breath you know you've improved quite a bit. thats just one practical way to measure how far you've come. but i do suggest having someone who knows what they're doing (my coach is a friench/training partner/college swimmer) help you along.

There are two general methods to gage improvement..

Swim Form:

This is the distance gained per stroke... most commonly determined by stroke count per lap. Which also has a correlation to strength vs. efficient swimming form. This is a shorter term (tactical) benchmark that is based on swimming technique.

Physiological:

Amount of effort expended per additional time saved. Effort is typically determined by HR. How efficient the effort applied is determined by how much effort was expended for a constant distance in a constant environment, The less effort needed (i.e., lower average HR) to achieve the same outcome (i.e., time for a set distance) is an indication of improvement. This is a longer-term (strategic) bench mark that is based on aerobic fitness.

Both benchmarks are interrelated and co-dependent. Meters or yards is not important... it's how efficiently your efforts are for any constant distance that determine effectiveness of a training program.

FWIW Joe Moya

Edited by Joe M 2005-09-25 4:11 PM

I think that swim golf would be a good way to measure you swim progress. This takes your time and stroke count into account and gives you a score based on both measures.

Can you tell the difference between 1 yard and 1 meter? I'm just going to throw this tip out there because I've never swam in a pool that was measured in yards, so I don't know how accurate it will be, but at my pool, I can tell the length of the pool by the lane ropes. In a 25m pool, the first 5 meters will be one colour, then the next 15m will alternate colours each meter, then the last 5m will be one colour again. So if you could look at just one of the sections (in the alternating colours) you could measure that with your arm width or something and see if it is a meter or a yard. Hopefully that made sense.

Jen

its turQy, not turGy!

think thanksgiving.

I do the 1000 yd. time trials. I like them because I can test my endurance and speed and I can see where I need to increase training if it is needed.

Thanks Jen

What the heck is swim golf? is there really such a thing I am very gullable and impressionable. I am used to yards not meters but I now know that the pool is measured in meters not yards.

Thanks again

Not Jen....

But swim golf as described by "Total Immersion" as counting the number of strokes per lap and adding the time it took to finish the lap.

For example, a 45 sec 50 yd. lap took 36 strokes... add 45 + 36 = 81 Your golf score was 81. The lower the score (like golf), the better the lap.

As you can tell, this method includes both aerobic fitness/physical strength (time taken to complet the lap) and number of strokes to accomplish the lap (fewer strokes per lap infers better form by getting more distance per pull). This shows a relationship between efficienct form and faster swim times.

For long-term fitness benchmark, simply note your average HR needed to complete this lap and you have all the elements to determine improvement in swimming form and fitness. You want to achieve a lower golf score at a lower average HR over a period of time. A decreasing average HR needed to achieve a lower golf score over time indicates improved aerobic condition from a strategic (month to month/season to season) standpoint.

FWIW
Joe Moya

BTW, it doesn't matter whether it's yards or meters... only make sure you use the same distance to determine the golf scores... and, average HR for lap distance completed.

Edited by Joe M 2005-09-26 7:36 PM

Thanks that clears it up I was going to buy the swim imersion cd books..that is the area I need to improve on the most.

Sorry about the name screw. How long have you been at it what events have you particpated in that was the most difficult.

BTW Socrtates was also called the "stinging bee"

hmm....

I been doing triathlon's for about 20+ or so years. Looong before most of what is now consider common knowledge was known. During my novice years, the longest single common athletic event was a marathon... now, that's just considered the cool down to an IM. A lot has changed in this sport... and, it certainly has grown. Which is good and sometime not so good... but, in the end... it's all good.

How many? Gees.... I have no accurate figure... but, I'm looking at a shelf full of T-shirts acrpss the room and I'd probably guess somewheres around 225 triathlons (give or take). And, I volunteer to help organize both small and VERY large triathlons events... even currently race directed and sponsor some smaller triathlons (this helps promote the sport).

In North America, I've done triathlons from Nova Scotia to San Diego... the distances are every length and format from F-1's to IM's. But, distance doesn't really equate to difficulty (except for a full IM). A few hot and humid races have made me suffer (plus a few just plain dry and HOT - like 100 degrees at 6 AM kinda' hot)... not to mention a few done at 5000 ft. starting elevations.

There is no one race I can say was more difficult than others... some tough races have been in perfect weather, but I wasn't feeling good half way through the race. Those were tough races also.

So... I guess it safe to say tough races are not so much defined by the race, but rather by your preparation.

Triathlons are a serious hobby of mine for the past few decades... but, it is probably a more accurate to say it's a lifestyle. I've been coached by some of the big named old school triathletes... at least back during the times when they were just another talented triathlete... only later to become an icon. Needless to say, their coaching fees were much cheaper also... which makes that coaching cost not feel as wasted as it seems to reflect in my performance
:-) .

I really like this lifestyle... makes me happy... and, for me that is all that really matters.

FWIW Joe Moya


Edited by Joe M 2005-09-26 11:16 PM

Wow a swim golf score of 81?! My best ever has been a 96 in a 50m pool. I know it is bad, but I am just starting out. But my time has improved from 1:50min per 50m to now 60sec per 50m.

I have never heard of this number of strokes per breath. Why is it important? Isn't it just measuring lung capacity? The time trial makes sense, since one can take an average and see the improvement. Even the swim golf score, makes kind of sense, but the number of strokes per breath. Can anyone explain?

My question is how to get more speed. I am the slowest in the training group and have been training for 9 months. I saw some improvement, but I feel stuck. Is it just me, or should I be patient?

from jldicarlo
"If your pool advertises than 8 laps is a quarter mile...I think your pool is meters. 400m = 1/4 mile. But...be careful assuming it's meters. TONS of pools claim to be meters and are actually yards. And unfortunately it's REALLY hard to tell the difference unless you've been swimming a long time. You could always bring a tape measure with you to your next swim "

Captain Overanalysis here to say that 1/4 mile is actually 440 yards, or 406 meters...400m is just the closest metric round number equivalent. So if it says a quarter mile, it's hard to tell if they are being precise with their language or rounding. I recommend a tape measure. Who else needs way too much information?

Being a new swimmer, I really got a lot out of this thread though, thanks to everyone!

Edited by goodzen 2005-09-27 8:57 AM

Number of strokes per breath is a concept that is pretty much old school. It's based on a hypoxic training methods that has no evidence to support it's method (assuming I read the post correctly). In fact, a recent study indicated otherwise. On the other hand, fewer breaths per stroke can be used as a method to help improve swimming form (not to be confused with swimming performance). Less head movement typically results in better and more consistent swimming form. There is some value in reducing strokes per breath... but, it has little to do with increasing aerobic capacity. Instead, it has more to do with increasing better swimming form. It is simply a swimming drill not intended to improve aerobic capacity or endurance.

Lung capacity (in and of itself) has little to do with athletic performance. The key element is how efficient the body is at processing oxygen taken in by the lungs. This has some relationship to lung capacity, but it's not a key relationship. Lung capacity becomes more pertinent when your ability to convert oxygen into energy has met it genetic limits. So, if your a Lance Armstrong... lung capacity becomes a bonus to an already fit aerobic body.

Time trial defined in terms of speed only has limited value. However, time trials in terms of less effort to achieve the same speed/time has a significant influence on efficiency of effort achieved through better aerobic capacity and better swimming form. Efficiency of effort is not only going faster, but it is going faster with less effort that makes the biggest difference. This is specially true with endurance sports.

FWIW Joe Moya

Forgot to answer your question about how to get more speed. the simple answer is...

Swim more WITH less mistakes in your form. Proper form is crucial.

Edited by Joe M 2005-09-27 1:31 PM

Edited by Joe M 2005-09-27 6:27 PM

I also just started out and I can do a 50meter lap in about 1:10. I can do 8 laps but need to rest a minute bewteen each lap. I think when I get some coaching and realize that I am doing things wrong it will improve my time. But I am trying to build up endurance now.

Goodluck marelizanel

"...But I am trying to build up endurance now." Hmm... not sure about that approach.

You might consider developing good swimming form before endurance.

Building Endurance (assuming you mean muscular and aerobic endurance) typically means you will need to swim more... but, if your swim form is poor... you may be only reinforcing bad habits by increasing a concentration on endurance (i.e., swimming greater distances).

Coaching sounds like a really good idea. Chances are you will be doing a lot of swim form drills and very little actual endurance base swimming.

FWIW Joe Moya

Efficiency.

Thanks Joe

It makes more sense now. I have never thought of that as a drill, but it makes sense. I have seriuos problems with my head position espcially when I breath. My coach tells me continualy that I must not lift my whole chest out of the pool, that only make my legs drag. So I will try this drill and see if it improves. I know of some long distance swimmers that alwas breath at every 7th stroke. Makes them less tired, but they are the elite. I must work on my efficiency. Is the golf score a way of masuring efficiency?

I do have a coach, but only online, which make it not perfect for correcting my form for she never sees me swim. I also need to find a coach or training buddy that can help correct poor form.

Another question regarding swimming is intensity. I know that to improve one needs to do some intervals on higher intensities. But that just mean for me to move my arms and legs faster, which only result in dropping form and slower speeds. How can one improve this?

Marelize Nel

Did my post inspire him to write that?

JAGMAN13

Am I him?

If so... the answer is yes. Afterall, when I first looked at the thread... your post was in reply to my post... so, I guessed you wanted a reply.

However, now the thread doesn't indicated you replied to my post...

There seems to be some kind of problem with the sites coding. I noticed when I post a reply, it sometimes posts at random to someone elses post (which I had no intention of replying to). This is specially true if I edit my post. Then when I refresh or exit the site the return, the post is made in response to the proper person. I'm not sure why this happens... but, it's kind of annoying. Sorry if had no intention of a reply form me... but, initially your post was indicated as a reply to me... then, it wasn't. I wish they would fix that issue.

Joe Moya

I like to gauge progress by how long I can hold a pace.

Example. Doing 50's in 35 seconds with 10 sec break. Repeat until I fall off the pace. I do this with several different distances throughout the month...My favorite is just a good old fashion 1 mile swim though...

Also. I co-sign with a previous poster. I went on several gym tours, and they tried to sell me on the 25 meter pool. I could tell it wasn't meters the second I saw it....Used a tape measure after I joined and it was 2 feet short of 25 yds! I've never come across a pool measured in meters.....

I guess the point of all this is....unless your positive about the lenght of the pool do your 'testing' in the same pool..

Well, I personally measure progress for the time being in ensuring that I can keep form whole swimming longer distances without a break. I can now swim 750 meters without stopping, even if my pace is slow (2:10/100m). I do that with something like 24 strokes per length. If I really work hard I can drop that to 18, but then I can not go the distance...yet I like the golf score method, but I am yet to get to a point where that is relevant for me.

Intensity does not mean that you move your arms and legs faster....

Intensity means that more effort is used to propel yourself through the water.

To propell yourself through the water faster means that you need good swimming form. AFTER you have constently good swimming form, you can start to apply more effort (i.e., strength) by increasing the load on your the key muscle groups - the Latimus Dorsi (Lats), Glutimus Maximus, Latimus Dorsi Obliques. Those are the back/shoulder, buttocks/Hip musles. You do not concentrate the effort load the smaller muscle groups - arms and legs.

The fastest way to EFFCIENTLY swim faster is to go slow with better swimming form.

Try this... first, don't worry about your swim time. Only concentrate on developing swimming form that allows you to take the fewist strokes per swim pool length. SLOW your stroke and make more distance covered with each stroke. If you do this consitantly, you will see that your swim times will actually increase over time (without ANY concentration on increasing your kick or stroke count).

More distance covered per stroke means that you are going faster with less effort. This is efficient swimming - A very important component of swimming. It has VERY LITTLE to do with more kicking or arm turn over. In fact, that is most likely counter productive.

Swimming is less of a strength sport... It is a finess sport. Good swimmers are not physically strong - first. But, they are well coordinated and know proper balance.

Swimming is simular to golf. A bad golf swing results in a bad drive.... no matter how strong the golfer may be. Golf is about technique and method... Swimming is the same. Power comes from the hips (i.e., the core) in Golf... Swimming is the same. Poor form always results in poor results. Continuing to shoot golf with bad golfing habits only reinforces bad habits... Bad swimming form reinforces bad habits no matter how much more you swim to try and conpensate for slow swim times. You will not progress as a swimmer without good swimming form first.

This is why I think a good swim coach is very important when you are starting out as a swimmer. It prevents bad habits from forming in the first place. It's much easier to progress in swimming if you don't have bad swimming form habits to unlearn. Forget intervals until you have good and consistent swimming form.


FWIW Joe Moya