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2005-10-29 8:41 AM

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Subject: Swim Advice: Help wanted.

I need a little advice from you strong swimmers.  I recently started working with a swim coach for the first time. I have a no background in swimming and I’m working this winter on improving my swim.  My goal is a full IM in the fall of 06. I’ve open water swam many times and I’m comfortable. Pool swimming is a little less comfortable. I can swim without a nose plug, but have trained the past year with one and have used a nose plug in every triathlon I’ve competed in this year. I’m a self-taught swimmer, never had a lesson until now. Here are my questions:

1) My swim coach evaluated my stroke and said that I don’t kick or use my legs much. I’m aware of this because I’ve tried using a kick board and I either stall out of start going backwards. I know that in longer triathlons I won’t be kicking much because I want to save my legs. I’ve used this reasoning to neglect my kick. I don’t think my swim coach has a history in Triathlon because she decided that the #1 thing I need to work on is my leg kick, not my stroke or breathing. I don’t want to spend all of my time or $$$ learning how to kick if its not priority. Question: How important overall is my kick?

2) Nose plug: I know its something I need to learn to do without. I can swim without one, but it makes me more relaxed in the water when I’m wearing one. My coach said that I need to stop using a nose plug, I agree. She then said that you never use your nose during swimming, you never breathe in or out of your nose. So why not use a plug if this is the case?

3) I’m a single-side breather (left). Coach said not to worry about learning to bilaterally breathe. She said its more important how many strokes I can get out of each breath. Currently I breath every full stroke. She suggested I practice getting two full strokes out of each breath. Do you agree?

4) Do swimming gloves really help improve your stroke? It seems counter productive if you train with gloves then race bare handed.

Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

 



Edited by oipolloi 2005-10-29 8:42 AM


2005-10-29 9:03 AM
in reply to: #274413

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.

OK...I'm not an expert but...as for the kick...in longer races you do want to save your legs, but the kick is also for balance in the water as you turn your body thru the stroke...its probab;y worth while spending some time on.

Nose plug..I'd get rid of it.  You do breathe thru your mouth.  If you are afraid of water up your nose on turns etc remember to blow air out your nose and nothing can come in

I've been a single side breather forever.  Recently a neck injury forced me to breathe to the other side.  Its probably not a big deal if you don't learn it, but FWIW things I now like about B/L breathing 1-If one side of my neck or trap is hurting it relieves things 2- I can really vary my breathing rhythm 3- My body rotation in the water has improved tremendously 4-I haven't tried it in a race yet but I think it might be easier to sight

Swim gloves...never used them...no Data

Try swimming with fins to work on your kick...they are uber fun and will give you a good feel.  Hope this helps and good luck -SMO

2005-10-29 9:14 AM
in reply to: #274416

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
sue7013 - 2005-10-29 9:03 AM

OK...I'm not an expert but...as for the kick...in longer races you do want to save your legs, but the kick is also for balance in the water as you turn your body thru the stroke...its probab;y worth while spending some time on.

Nose plug..I'd get rid of it.  You do breathe thru your mouth.  If you are afraid of water up your nose on turns etc remember to blow air out your nose and nothing can come in

I've been a single side breather forever.  Recently a neck injury forced me to breathe to the other side.  Its probably not a big deal if you don't learn it, but FWIW things I now like about B/L breathing 1-If one side of my neck or trap is hurting it relieves things 2- I can really vary my breathing rhythm 3- My body rotation in the water has improved tremendously 4-I haven't tried it in a race yet but I think it might be easier to sight

Swim gloves...never used them...no Data

Try swimming with fins to work on your kick...they are uber fun and will give you a good feel.  Hope this helps and good luck -SMO

Thanks Sue.  I was told Fins will help quite a bit.  I'm going to look into buying a pair.  I would like to learn to B/L breathe but I have so many other issues with swimming that I think I will concentrate on improving my stroke and kick before I try.  The strange problem I have with my nose plug issue is, if I miss a breath or get a mouth full of water my brain reacts by inhaling through my nose, usually under water.  I think this is just a lack-of-experience issue.  When I'm relaxed and I'm not competing with other swimmers then sucking water through my nose isn't an issue.  It becomes an issue when stress is applied.

2005-10-29 10:15 AM
in reply to: #274413

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
I am not an expert either but I believe I have learned a few things along the way. The reason you are not moving when you are kicking is probably because you have runner's kick. You need to point your feet and toes when you kick. If you kick with your feet at a normal 90 degree angle to your legs, you produce no forward propulsion. And kick from your hips very gently. Kick is mostly for balance, not forward propulsion. Wetsuits also compensate huge for weak kick by the way. Most important thing is that your legs don't drag with your toes pointing down etc. That is slow and exhausting.

Biltateral breathing helps make your body rotation more equal on both sides....people that breathe on one side tend to not fully roll to the side where they don't breathe......so they favor and are biased to one side ....I also get neck muscle pains if I don't switch sides...sometimes I breathe one lap one side, next lap on the other for that reason....I do exhale through my nose, helps from water sneaking up in there, inhale through mouth....not sure it matters, just habit...
2005-10-30 11:12 AM
in reply to: #274413

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
I suck at the swim,,,, but as so much as I did before i read and followed the info inthe book Total Immersion Swimming.

I think the bi-lateral breathing is important for anoter reason not mentioned, wind and chop if it's coming from the side you ususally breath on you will always have the waves hitting you on that side.

I started bi lateral breathing this past year for the Alcatraz swim. I forced myself to only breath on the opposite side I was comfortable with for a period of time, now I don't remeber which side I started our on. It also improved my rotation on the other side.

I agree that the leg kick is not that important in triathlon swimming, but you must be balanced to get away with it. Keep you ching in your chest, try looking down at the bottom of the pool at the area where you feet are, when you breathe let your chin follow your chest up past your shoulder.

Good Luck!!!
2005-10-30 12:12 PM
in reply to: #274654

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.

crusevegas - 2005-10-30 11:12 AM I suck at the swim,,,, but as so much as I did before i read and followed the info inthe book Total Immersion Swimming. I think the bi-lateral breathing is important for anoter reason not mentioned, wind and chop if it's coming from the side you ususally breath on you will always have the waves hitting you on that side. I started bi lateral breathing this past year for the Alcatraz swim. I forced myself to only breath on the opposite side I was comfortable with for a period of time, now I don't remeber which side I started our on. It also improved my rotation on the other side. I agree that the leg kick is not that important in triathlon swimming, but you must be balanced to get away with it. Keep you ching in your chest, try looking down at the bottom of the pool at the area where you feet are, when you breathe let your chin follow your chest up past your shoulder. Good Luck!!!

Great advice. Thank you. 

I agree that I need to learn to bi-lateral breath.  That will be on the list of things to master before spring.



2005-10-30 3:09 PM
in reply to: #274413

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
Keep the nose plug. I just started to use one this past season(due to sinus problems) and I think I breathe better. Just blow out underwater so you can get a full breath of air.

As for the kick, yes, you should develop some type of kick for balance.

Swim gloves or paddles help with stroke technique and strength.



2005-10-30 4:12 PM
in reply to: #274413

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Supersonicus Idioticus
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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
1) For open water triathletes, your kick will facilitate both lifting your legs up, and rotating your body. Foreward propulsion is just a side effect. You lift your legs up so that your body is flatter, and more out of the water. Less water strikes you, and pushes you back. On the same note, you rotate your body so more of yourself is in the air. I also think you get more power from your pull if your hands are pulling about 50cm away from straight foreward.

2) You don't need a nose plug. You'll realize that when you breathing is better. Yes, you need to have a nice breathing pattern. Which leads me to this:

3) YOU NEED TO BE CAPABLE OF BILATERAL BREATHING. Doesn't mean you necessarily need to race that way, but each arm needs to be doing the same thing. Unilaterally breathe when you need the oxygen. Two full strokes (one arm returning to its starting position twice) may be hard on the lungs.

4) swimming gloves?? never heard of them in 12 years. Paddles help your arm strength.


Essentially, everything a beginner to almost advanced swimmer is working on shows its results in DISTANCE PER STROKE. Don't spend all your time calculating your DPS etc, just work on swimming, and you'll realize your DPS is increasing.
2005-10-30 4:33 PM
in reply to: #274413

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.

Mike,

Just to second (or third or fourth) what has already been said, you do need to develop at least an adequate kick. My wife is a swimmer and we had the "want to save my legs for the bike and run" discussion, she offered that I try it "her way" and if things were harder or if I did worse on the bike or run then I could go back to my way. Well her way was much better, I worked on my kick and now I come out of the water much faster and fresher than I did before. This is a result of having a more neutral postition in the water and being more efficient. As for gloves or paddles beware shoulder problems. I used paddles for a long time and have had some shoulder issues this year as a result. Fins are great for teaching the proper kick technique however don't use them as a crutch during kick sets. Look into getting Gayle Bernhardt's "Swim Workouts for Triathletes" great book!! Good Luck.

2005-10-30 6:11 PM
in reply to: #274742

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.

I agree with the kick part. You need to kick at least for balance, like everyone is saying, and in order to have an efficient and effective kick, you need to drill. If you have a good kick, you can also increase your speed right at the start of the race, when you want to try to clear the pack, and again at the end of the swim, to get the blood flowing nicely in your legs.

I kick drill EVERY swim (well, my masters' coach makes me), and I've found that even though I'm kicking more often than I did before, I expend far less energy doing so.

The noseplug thing? Think this: if you are dependant on it, what happens if you lose it in the middle of a race? You need to lose the nose plug (easier said than done, I know.)

2005-10-30 6:54 PM
in reply to: #274413

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
If these gloves things your talking about are fist gloves then they are good
as you swim with them one you have no feel of your hands in the water causing you to glide and catch effieintly
then once you take them off and swim it feels like you hands are big paddles
unreal feeling....
An alternative to fist gloves though is kust clenshing your fist
or clenching a squash ball
but the gloves totaly cut of all feeling of water

If they're not fist gloves then I dont know.


2005-10-30 7:51 PM
in reply to: #274413

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The Original
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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
OK- I have only been swimming since January so I still consider myself a newbie.  But...I wouldn't focus on kicking so much.  You want to save your legs for the bike/run.  The extra energy expended for kicking doesn't help you gain that much speed.  As for bilateral breathing, I didn't start out breathing bilaterally until I got my stroke down.  But you should practice bilateral breathing- especially if you're doing ocean swims.  If you end up swimming parallel to the shore you'll want to be able to breathe on both sides just in case you have waves crashing into your face on one side.  As for breathing, I usually breathe bilaterally every 3 strokes, sometimes 4.  You'll be able to stretch out your breathing over more strokes the more you swim.  Good luck!
2005-10-30 8:15 PM
in reply to: #274735

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.

So Fresh So Clean - 2005-10-30 4:12 PM 1) For open water triathletes, your kick will facilitate both lifting your legs up, and rotating your body. Foreward propulsion is just a side effect. You lift your legs up so that your body is flatter, and more out of the water. Less water strikes you, and pushes you back. On the same note, you rotate your body so more of yourself is in the air. I also think you get more power from your pull if your hands are pulling about 50cm away from straight foreward. 2) You don't need a nose plug. You'll realize that when you breathing is better. Yes, you need to have a nice breathing pattern. Which leads me to this: 3) YOU NEED TO BE CAPABLE OF BILATERAL BREATHING. Doesn't mean you necessarily need to race that way, but each arm needs to be doing the same thing. Unilaterally breathe when you need the oxygen. Two full strokes (one arm returning to its starting position twice) may be hard on the lungs. 4) swimming gloves?? never heard of them in 12 years. Paddles help your arm strength. Essentially, everything a beginner to almost advanced swimmer is working on shows its results in DISTANCE PER STROKE. Don't spend all your time calculating your DPS etc, just work on swimming, and you'll realize your DPS is increasing.

Greg:  Tons of great info here, thanks!  I feel like I just got a free coaching lesson.  I've only had one lesson with my swim coach so far, but like I said earlier, I don't think she comes from a Triathlon background so some of the stuff that concerns me she hasn't addressed yet.  Thanks again.

Janelle, Brett, everyone else:  Thanks for all the opinions and advice.  It's very much appreciated.  I'm going into this winter strong and plan on getting stronger.  Mastering my swim is top of the list.  Be patient with me because I'll be back with more questions (and of course I always search the forum database prior to posting).

Back to the pool...

2005-10-30 10:20 PM
in reply to: #274413

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
Kinda odd, but I seem to disagree on nearly everything your coach said.

1) Strong kick is important for effective body roll, and it takes some of the stress off your arms. You don't need to kick like a madman in a tri since your legs are going to be carrying you the rest of the day, so you can ease off them, but they still need to work. Make sure you're kicking from your HIPS, not your knees, and with relaxed legs (not stiff, locked legs).

2) Ditch the nose plug. Might take you a few times, but it's worth it. I breathe out of my nose and mouth when I exhale to get rid of the "bad" air and keep water out, which means that I have empty lungs when I breathe again and that helps keep water out too (nature hates a vacuume)

3) Swimmers train billaterally for the same reason runners switch sides of the road. It helps prevent one side of your body from becoming dominant or funky or stressed. It developes balanced muscles and helps you focus on your centerline. If you become too dependent on one side, your navigation in OW will probably be a little off to one side or another. Plus, breathing on both sides means you'll be able to see who is where and doing what. It takes a while, but do drills where you alter your breathing pattern every 50 m or so (ex, breathe every stroke for 50 m, then every 2, then every 3, then every 4, then every 5, then back down). Eventually you'll find a patter that works. 3 is my magic number, and the one that works for most of my swim students.
2005-10-31 5:52 AM
in reply to: #274413

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
I do not think you should use the swim gloves or paddles until you have developed a good stroke. The nose piece needs to go b/c if it gets knocked off during a triathlon you will probably go crazy without it, so why put yourself in this position when it is not required.
2005-10-31 8:36 AM
in reply to: #274830

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.

phoenixazul - 2005-10-30 10:20 PM Kinda odd, but I seem to disagree on nearly everything your coach said. 1) Strong kick is important for effective body roll, and it takes some of the stress off your arms. You don't need to kick like a madman in a tri since your legs are going to be carrying you the rest of the day, so you can ease off them, but they still need to work. Make sure you're kicking from your HIPS, not your knees, and with relaxed legs (not stiff, locked legs). 2) Ditch the nose plug. Might take you a few times, but it's worth it. I breathe out of my nose and mouth when I exhale to get rid of the "bad" air and keep water out, which means that I have empty lungs when I breathe again and that helps keep water out too (nature hates a vacuume) 3) Swimmers train billaterally for the same reason runners switch sides of the road. It helps prevent one side of your body from becoming dominant or funky or stressed. It developes balanced muscles and helps you focus on your centerline. If you become too dependent on one side, your navigation in OW will probably be a little off to one side or another. Plus, breathing on both sides means you'll be able to see who is where and doing what. It takes a while, but do drills where you alter your breathing pattern every 50 m or so (ex, breathe every stroke for 50 m, then every 2, then every 3, then every 4, then every 5, then back down). Eventually you'll find a patter that works. 3 is my magic number, and the one that works for most of my swim students.

Thanks Tracey.  Very good advice.  I swam last night and tried right side breathing (left is my natural side).  I found that my timing is way off.  I would inhale before my right arm started to rotate and end up getting water.  I also had a hard time getting my face out of the water on the right side.  My neck flexability is bad on my right side since I haven't been using it.  I know this will come with practice, and I will be practicing. 

The way you explained the benefits of the "kick" helps me understand why to kick.  Since I don't currently bilaterally breathe and my kick is weak I find my hip and shoulder rotation is not consistent.  I have great rotation on my left side, since thats the side I breathe on. 

I swam last night.  A guy in the lane next to me was doing kick-board drills.  His lap time was quicker than mine just using his legs and I was free-style swiming.  Just goes to show what a good kick can do. 



2005-10-31 9:53 AM
in reply to: #274974

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Master
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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
oipolloi - 2005-10-31 9:36 AM
I swam last night and tried right side breathing (left is my natural side).  I found that my timing is way off.  I would inhale before my right arm started to rotate and end up getting water.  I also had a hard time getting my face out of the water on the right side.  My neck flexability is bad on my right side since I haven't been using it. 



I'm just throwing my two cents in To help your neck flexibility, practice turning your head to the right thru/out the day. And there's nothing wrong with dry land practice. BTW, is your coach having you breathe every third stroke?
Personally, I'm a left-side breather too. But I've found the more I switch sides, the less I panic, and the less I have earaches, b/c I can't get in the hang of using ear plugs.
Have fun!
2005-10-31 10:15 AM
in reply to: #275046

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
watergirl - 2005-10-31 9:53 AM
oi polloi - 2005-10-31 9:36 AM I swam last night and tried right side breathing (left is my natural side).  I found that my timing is way off.  I would inhale before my right arm started to rotate and end up getting water.  I also had a hard time getting my face out of the water on the right side.  My neck flexibility is bad on my right side since I haven't been using it. 

I'm just throwing my two cents in To help your neck flexibility, practice turning your head to the right thru/out the day. And there's nothing wrong with dry land practice. BTW, is your coach having you breathe every third stroke? Personally, I'm a left-side breather too. But I've found the more I switch sides, the less I panic, and the less I have earaches, b/c I can't get in the hang of using ear plugs. Have fun!

Speaking of Ear Plugs.  Do you peeps use them?  I've considered them but I haven't had a problem with pain, infections etc.  What type do you use?  Plastic, wax?

2005-10-31 11:39 AM
in reply to: #274413

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
I was doing some 50m sprints and found that by focusing on kicking hard, I could shave up to 5 seconds off my time. That is what convinced me to to more than just keep my legs afloat. I've come stumbling out of the water after long swims, I believe because the lack of leg activity allowed them to 'fall asleep.'

I use some of those frog hand gloves. They help you develop more power, and they're FUN!

I forced myself to learn to breathe on both sides for the reasons mentioned above, although in races I fall back to the comfort of the right side every time that arm comes up. In practice I go three strokes, alternating right and left breathing.

Learning how to push harder at a variety of shorter distances has increased my confidence in the water as well.

Edited by monkeyboy64 2005-10-31 11:49 AM
2005-10-31 12:50 PM
in reply to: #274413

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
Ok, Heres some suggestions for you. I swam competitively through college and have a coaching background. Not to mention my father coached for over 35 years so take this for what its worth.

Your kick in any stroke IS Important. It doesn't matter to me if you have a 2 beat kick or a 6 beat kick your kick is vital to correct body position in the water. If you are stalling out or going backwards it sounds like your ankle flexion isn't ideal. You can work on this with no problem. You can do this while you are at work or at home. While sitting in a chair point your toes directly behine you and press down. You should feel a stretch in the top of your foot. Do this anywhere from 6 or more times a day sets of 3 30 seconds each. I've always found this to work on the ankle flexion.

2. Noseplugs are a crutch when you are swimming. You will find it a lot easier physically when you learn to not use the nose plug. A Simple solution to the nose plug is when you do your turn press your tongue against the roof of your mouth. This will stop the air from leaving your nose and getting that burning sensation from the chloring in your nose and sinuses. You will find that after time you won't even notice not using the nose plug.

3. Learn to Bilateral Breath while swimming. I too breath mostly to my left but in longer races I bilateral breath. In shorter (50 - 200 Yard) races it really doesn't matter as your coach said about what side you breath on. However In the shorter races you are entering an Anerobic (Without air) state of exercise, while in triathlons you want to remain Aerobic (With Air). If youare uncomfortable breathing bilaterally then you should try to breath every other stroke at least.

4. I would stay away from swim gloves while swimming, These carry extra weight and could hurt your shoulder. If you use anything use the training hand paddles. The hand paddles will help correct stroke technique and strengthen your shoulder, arm and back muscles. However start slowly with them. Small amounts of yardage and work your way up from there. Some of the better hand paddles out there still allow you to "feel" the water during your pull. I would recommend using paddles for swimming.

Overall, if you are really that concerned about your coach find out what type of background she has in coaching and how many years. If she has ever coached adults before also. Coaches are a good way to go but they really need to understand what you are training for.

Again, just take it for what its worth but hope this help you out a little bit.

Edited by Mark6715 2005-10-31 1:05 PM
2005-10-31 2:50 PM
in reply to: #275183

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.

Mark6715 - 2005-10-31 12:50 PM Ok, Heres some suggestions for you. I swam competitively through college and have a coaching background. Not to mention my father coached for over 35 years so take this for what its worth. Your kick in any stroke IS Important. It doesn't matter to me if you have a 2 beat kick or a 6 beat kick your kick is vital to correct body position in the water. If you are stalling out or going backwards it sounds like your ankle flexion isn't ideal. You can work on this with no problem. You can do this while you are at work or at home. While sitting in a chair point your toes directly behine you and press down. You should feel a stretch in the top of your foot. Do this anywhere from 6 or more times a day sets of 3 30 seconds each. I've always found this to work on the ankle flexion. 2. Noseplugs are a crutch when you are swimming. You will find it a lot easier physically when you learn to not use the nose plug. A Simple solution to the nose plug is when you do your turn press your tongue against the roof of your mouth. This will stop the air from leaving your nose and getting that burning sensation from the chloring in your nose and sinuses. You will find that after time you won't even notice not using the nose plug. 3. Learn to Bilateral Breath while swimming. I too breath mostly to my left but in longer races I bilateral breath. In shorter (50 - 200 Yard) races it really doesn't matter as your coach said about what side you breath on. However In the shorter races you are entering an Anerobic (Without air) state of exercise, while in triathlons you want to remain Aerobic (With Air). If youare uncomfortable breathing bilaterally then you should try to breath every other stroke at least. 4. I would stay away from swim gloves while swimming, These carry extra weight and could hurt your shoulder. If you use anything use the training hand paddles. The hand paddles will help correct stroke technique and strengthen your shoulder, arm and back muscles. However start slowly with them. Small amounts of yardage and work your way up from there. Some of the better hand paddles out there still allow you to "feel" the water during your pull. I would recommend using paddles for swimming. Overall, if you are really that concerned about your coach find out what type of background she has in coaching and how many years. If she has ever coached adults before also. Coaches are a good way to go but they really need to understand what you are training for. Again, just take it for what its worth but hope this help you out a little bit.

Mark:  Thanks for all the above information.  Great stuff!  Pressing the tongue against the mouth roof makes sense, and I will begin the ankle exercizes immediately.  My swim coach has a great coaching and racing background, but no triathlon background.  Some of what she's telling me is being covered here but I have learned more from this thread then my last coaching session.  Thanks again.



2005-11-01 9:05 PM
in reply to: #274413

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
I have to disagree with Mark on the use of paddles
quote mark "If you use anything use the training hand paddles. The hand paddles will help correct stroke technique and strengthen your shoulder, arm and back muscles"

The hand paddles will seriously agrevate injury in shoulders and back

plus why would you train with something that makes it easier then when you swim normally it will feel like your going backwards

Hand paddles are bad.

Skull
2005-11-02 12:25 AM
in reply to: #276141

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.
For a healthy debate on Hand Paddles and Injury,

In my quote if you use anything use hand paddles, I was suggesting that the gloves which retain water will cause extra stress on the shoulder and muscles during the recovery phase of the stroke. Hand paddles will correct stroke technique without retaining the water during the recover phase of swimming. What causes shoulder injuries is incorrect stroke technique and overuse. Hand paddles will help to identify stroke imperfections and allow you to correct them while increasing the strength in your arms should and back. However you are correct in saying that hand paddles will agrivate a shoulder injury.....if one already exists.

According to the Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise....No significant difference was found between the mean values for %ST for slow and fast stroking speeds and for trials with and without hand paddles. Article Abstract can be found below.

Shoulder impingement in front-crawl swimming: II. analysis of stroking technique.
Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 32(1):30, January 2000.
YANAI, TOSHIMASA; HAY, JAMES G.
Abstract:
YANAI, T. and JAMES G. HAY. Shoulder impingement in front-crawl swimming: II. analysis of stroking technique. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 32, No. 1, pp. 30-40, 2000.

Purpose: The purpose of this study was to determine the technical causes of shoulder impingement experienced by front-crawl swimmers.

Methods: The shoulder movements exhibited during performance of the front-crawl stroke were measured using three-dimensional videography, and the instances at which each shoulder was experiencing impingement were identified.

Results: On average, impingement occurred 24.8% of the stroke time (%ST). In one or more phases of the stroke cycle, each subject experienced impingement in some trials and not in other trials. This suggests that stroke technique, and not just anatomical differences, accounted for individual susceptibility to shoulder impingement. ..............No significant difference was found between the mean values for %ST for slow and fast stroking speeds and for trials with and without hand paddles........................ Use of a unilateral breathing technique was often associated with a small magnitude of tilt angle (an effect of the scapular elevation/abduction on one side and depression/adduction on the other side) on the breathing side; in such cases a high incidence of shoulder impingement was observed for the shoulder on the ipsilateral side. Swimmers at high risk of experiencing shoulder impingement had three characteristics in their stroking techniques: (a) a large amount of internal rotation of the arm during the pull phase, (b) a late initiation of external rotation of the arm during the recovery phase, and (c) a small amount of tilt angle.

Conclusions: A swimmer should be able to reduce the risk of developing shoulder impingement by altering the technique to eliminate the three characteristics.

(C)2000The American College of Sports Medicine

Overusing anything will lead to injury. Which is why I suggested to ease into using hand paddles. According to your theory that "why would you train with something that makes it easier then when you swim normally it will feel like your going backwards" Fins are bad for swimming as well then.

"The hand paddles will seriously agrevate injury in shoulders and back" They can only agrivate and existing injury. They can create an injury but so can the wrong pair of running shoes. Using a kickboard too long can create a shoulder injury as well as incorrect technique. You want to ease into using the hand paddles. Don't go out and do 500 yards with hand paddles the fist day. Start off with 100 and progress from there.

NEVER SWIM THROUGH PAIN. IF you feel pain in your shoulder you should stop what you are doing.

Incorrect technique and overuse are the most common reasons for shoulder injuries during swimming. To avoid injury you work on proper technique and strength training both of which hand paddles will do.

Hand paddles arn't for everyone but majority of competitive swimmers use hand paddles on a weekly if not daily basis.
2005-11-02 8:51 AM
in reply to: #276188

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice: Help wanted.

Mark6715 - 2005-11-02 12:25 AM For a healthy debate on Hand Paddles and Injury, In my quote if you use anything use hand paddles, I was suggesting that the gloves which retain water will cause extra stress on the shoulder and muscles during the recovery phase of the stroke. Hand paddles will correct stroke technique without retaining the water during the recover phase of swimming. What causes shoulder injuries is incorrect stroke technique and overuse. Hand paddles will help to identify stroke imperfections and allow you to correct them while increasing the strength in your arms should and back. However you are correct in saying that hand paddles will agrivate a shoulder injury.....if one already exists. According to the Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise.....

Mark:  Thanks again for the great information.  I've been putting to practice some of the advice I'm getting here and it's helping.  I'm keeping my swim workouts to 1800 yards crawl + 200 kickboard for now, until I perfect technique.  Once I get proper stroke and kick technique I'll increasy distance X 10%.  I'm not going to try hand paddles until I've mastered stroke and kick.  If I take on too many skill lessons it may actually slow my learning of the basics.  Thanks again.

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