General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen Rss Feed  
Moderators: jmk-brooklyn, Ron Reply
2011-11-25 9:54 AM

User image

Extreme Veteran
393
100100100252525
The Center of My Universe
Subject: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen

So I stole this post from another thread so as not to hijack...

"Read what Mark Allen says: 

Here is a quote from the article:http://www.markallenonline.com/maoArticles.aspx?AID=2

Now for the tougher part…the endurance. This is where heart rate training becomes king. Endurance is THE most important piece of a triathlete’s fitness. Why is it tough to develop? Simply put, it is challenging because it usually means an athlete will have to slow things down from their normal group training pace to effectively develop their aerobic engine and being guided by what is going on with your heart rate rather than your will to the champion of the daily training sessions with your training partners! It means swimming, cycling and running with the ego checked at the door. But for those patient enough to do just that, once the aerobic engine is built the speedwork will have a profound positive effect their fitness and allow for a longer-lasting improvement in performance than for those who blast away from the first day of training each year.

Again, kudos for asking for help.  Over the last six years of running I've learned that everything I thought to be true, is false.  And that I know pretty-much nothing.  Everything I have learned from other succesful athletes and coaches that I have applied to my training has paid off in spades."   

Now, my question is...

Is this supposed to be every run, bar none? Or is this just base phase, or something else completely?  If it is every run, do you have to skip all of the local weekend road races?

I've probably gone as far as I can go on the newbie train after three years and still believe I can get to the point where I am capable of 6 minute miles over a 13.1 distance if I work at it so proper execution of this is important for me to figure out. If I read the site correctly, he did all of his training at this low HR pace, but I can't believe he didn't race at all...

Thanks in advance for your comments.

 

 



2011-11-25 10:02 AM
in reply to: #3914689


168
1002525
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen
There is a lot more to his training methods than this snippet.  There are differences between his maintenance programs and peak performance programs.  He also suggests you can race up to a half marathon during base training every 3-6 weeks if I recall correctly, during maintenance. 
2011-11-25 10:31 AM
in reply to: #3914689

User image

Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen
TriFlorida - 2011-11-25 7:54 AM

So I stole this post from another thread so as not to hijack...

"Read what Mark Allen says: 

Here is a quote from the article:http://www.markallenonline.com/maoArticles.aspx?AID=2

Now for the tougher part…the endurance. This is where heart rate training becomes king. Endurance is THE most important piece of a triathlete’s fitness. Why is it tough to develop? Simply put, it is challenging because it usually means an athlete will have to slow things down from their normal group training pace to effectively develop their aerobic engine and being guided by what is going on with your heart rate rather than your will to the champion of the daily training sessions with your training partners! It means swimming, cycling and running with the ego checked at the door. But for those patient enough to do just that, once the aerobic engine is built the speedwork will have a profound positive effect their fitness and allow for a longer-lasting improvement in performance than for those who blast away from the first day of training each year.

Again, kudos for asking for help.  Over the last six years of running I've learned that everything I thought to be true, is false.  And that I know pretty-much nothing.  Everything I have learned from other succesful athletes and coaches that I have applied to my training has paid off in spades."   

Now, my question is...

Is this supposed to be every run, bar none? Or is this just base phase, or something else completely?  If it is every run, do you have to skip all of the local weekend road races?

I've probably gone as far as I can go on the newbie train after three years and still believe I can get to the point where I am capable of 6 minute miles over a 13.1 distance if I work at it so proper execution of this is important for me to figure out. If I read the site correctly, he did all of his training at this low HR pace, but I can't believe he didn't race at all...

Thanks in advance for your comments.

He answers it in the paragraph above.  All he is saying is you first build your base, then you work your speed.  He is saying that to build your base you don't go all out, and basically you use your HR to keep yourself in check.  Plenty of speed work, tempo work, etc in his program.

2011-11-25 12:26 PM
in reply to: #3914689

User image

Veteran
327
10010010025
Madison,
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen
Don Fink's Iron Fit says something fairly similar and breaks the training up into 3-4 week segments of base, then build, repeat. I would suggest getting the book or see if MA has written a book about endurance training. My summary above leaves out a lot of important info and it's been awhile since I read the book.
2011-11-25 1:01 PM
in reply to: #3914689

User image

Champion
9033
50002000200025
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen
TriFlorida - 2011-11-25 11:54 AM

I've probably gone as far as I can go on the newbie train after three years and still believe I can get to the point where I am capable of 6 minute miles over a 13.1 distance if I work at it so proper execution of this is important for me to figure out. If I read the site correctly, he did all of his training at this low HR pace, but I can't believe he didn't race at all...

Thanks in advance for your comments.



What does your typical training look like? If you are just looking at running, how often are you running, what is your weekly volume, how many easy runs, how many hards runs and how are they structured?

Aerobic adaptation occurs across a wide variety of intensities and capping one's HR at a specific value so as to keep training "aerobic" is rarely the best use of an athlete's time. Find a quality program that includes intensity through the year and you will make progress.

Shane
2011-11-25 2:10 PM
in reply to: #3914689

User image

Expert
1038
100025
Noosa
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen
TriFlorida - 2011-11-26 12:54 AM

So I stole this post from another thread so as not to hijack...

"Read what Mark Allen says: 

Here is a quote from the article:http://www.markallenonline.com/maoArticles.aspx?AID=2

Now for the tougher part…the endurance. This is where heart rate training becomes king. Endurance is THE most important piece of a triathlete’s fitness. Why is it tough to develop? Simply put, it is challenging because it usually means an athlete will have to slow things down from their normal group training pace to effectively develop their aerobic engine and being guided by what is going on with your heart rate rather than your will to the champion of the daily training sessions with your training partners! It means swimming, cycling and running with the ego checked at the door. But for those patient enough to do just that, once the aerobic engine is built the speedwork will have a profound positive effect their fitness and allow for a longer-lasting improvement in performance than for those who blast away from the first day of training each year.

Again, kudos for asking for help.  Over the last six years of running I've learned that everything I thought to be true, is false.  And that I know pretty-much nothing.  Everything I have learned from other succesful athletes and coaches that I have applied to my training has paid off in spades."   

Now, my question is...

Is this supposed to be every run, bar none? Or is this just base phase, or something else completely?  If it is every run, do you have to skip all of the local weekend road races?

I've probably gone as far as I can go on the newbie train after three years and still believe I can get to the point where I am capable of 6 minute miles over a 13.1 distance if I work at it so proper execution of this is important for me to figure out. If I read the site correctly, he did all of his training at this low HR pace, but I can't believe he didn't race at all...

Thanks in advance for your comments.

 

 

I've just re-read this article and I think I'm right in saying the aim is to only spend 15-20mins doing speed training in each sport whilst the rest of the week is kept at Z2 HR. Taking running as an example you might do one short tempo run per week or one interval session but aim to spend as much time as you afford doing steady pace runs at your Z2 HR. As you get fitter your pace at that same HR will increase.


2011-11-25 2:19 PM
in reply to: #3914842

User image

Extreme Veteran
393
100100100252525
The Center of My Universe
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen
gsmacleod - 2011-11-25 1:01 PM What does your typical training look like? If you are just looking at running, how often are you running, what is your weekly volume, how many easy runs, how many hards runs and how are they structured? Aerobic adaptation occurs across a wide variety of intensities and capping one's HR at a specific value so as to keep training "aerobic" is rarely the best use of an athlete's time. Find a quality program that includes intensity through the year and you will make progress. Shane

I run 3 days per week. Tuesday and Thursday runs were, at the height, 10 milers with a long run on Saturdays, never exceeding 40 miles a week. This was the IM plan I developed off of the Higdon 3 day Marathon plan. I incorporated swimming on run days and cycling on Wed/Fri/Sun.  For the most part, this is how I have trained over the last couple of years but this year was the most volume except for 2009 when I did two halves and a full marathon. This year's running volume right now is just over 1000 miles which is the highest of the three years.

I sometimes incorporated some short intervals into either of the shorter weekly runs. Otherwise, not much other structure.  I have continued to make progress in endurance and speed.

I am looking, now, to run more frequently with lower mileage during the week and keep a longish run Saturdays leading to a Feb marathon. Tuesday nights I have been doing 3 miles of varying interval training with the local track club over the last two weeks which I enjoy because I finally get to meet more like minded people. (IM training was pretty much alone)  I'd also like to continue to get comfortable getting faster because I think I can.

This winter my two goals are running, and also building cycling power. I can do this slow running thing if the dividends are worth it. I just don't want to train myself to go slow.



Edited by TriFlorida 2011-11-25 2:24 PM
2011-11-25 3:25 PM
in reply to: #3914689

User image

Pro
4350
200020001001001002525
Wallingford, PA
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen
So..... just curious.... I would say that I follow the build an easy base protocol for running. Pretty much every bit of my running at the moment is at a very easy pace. I've found that works well for me. What I'm wondering about is -- does this hold true for bike and swim as well? I have found that I can maintain or improve bike fitness on shorter, higher intensity training. Would it be better to take some "aerobic base building" time for the bike as well?
2011-11-25 5:05 PM
in reply to: #3914936

User image

Pro
5143
500010025
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen

jsnowash - 2011-11-25 1:25 PM... What I'm wondering about is -- does this hold true for bike and swim as well? I have found that I can maintain or improve bike fitness on shorter, higher intensity training. Would it be better to take some "aerobic base building" time for the bike as well?

Same question.  I have proven to myself in running that speed work and races are brutal on my body, but I can log a lot of slow miles without injury and come race day, astonish myself at how fast I am, without having ever run anywhere near that fast in training.  I don't think this works for cycling though, but I'm not sure.

My question for cycling is how effective is group riding, where you hang in the middle of the group most of the time at an easy pace, and then kill yourself when it's your turn at the front. 

Swimming- eh, it's so much more about technique than training.

2011-11-25 5:18 PM
in reply to: #3914689

User image

Champion
9601
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen
Certainly "base" aerobic fitness can be built in both swim and bike, however both also allow for a safer application of intensity vs. the run. It's hard to get injured biking or swimming fast. If you are a short course triathlete, bike and swim intensity are very important. If you race long course, a bike intensity which you can maintain for 56 or 112 miles AND be able to run effectively off can be determined using HR and will be at a more "base" intensity. So yes, the training still applies. Where most long course triathletes, IMO, mess up is riding too much too easy. Same with the swim. It's about technique only to a point and then it's about swimming FAST. Anyone who says differently is just lazy in the pool and trying to justify the sad 1500 yard straight easy swim they just did and call it quality training.
2011-11-25 7:19 PM
in reply to: #3914894

User image

Champion
9033
50002000200025
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen
TriFlorida - 2011-11-25 4:19 PM

This winter my two goals are running, and also building cycling power. I can do this slow running thing if the dividends are worth it. I just don't want to train myself to go slow.



I would definitely go with increased frequency; if you were to look at BarryP's plan, you could start with 6 runs a week with 3x3 miles, 2x6 miles and 1x9 miles. 27 miles spread over six runs and then you can start increasing the volume. The only intensity I would do while you are doing this would be strides a couple times a week. Once you get to >40 mpw, then I would prbably look to add a tempo run.

Shane


2011-11-26 1:58 PM
in reply to: #3914936

Master
7693
50002000500100252525
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen

jsnowash - 2011-11-25 3:25 PM So..... just curious.... I would say that I follow the build an easy base protocol for running. Pretty much every bit of my running at the moment is at a very easy pace. I've found that works well for me. What I'm wondering about is -- does this hold true for bike and swim as well? I have found that I can maintain or improve bike fitness on shorter, higher intensity training. Would it be better to take some "aerobic base building" time for the bike as well?

Like Bryan said, swimming and biking don't have the injury risk of running because of the lack of impact & eccentric loading. In possibly oversimplifying things, swimming and biking have kind of the reverse idea as running.  Do several hard sessions a week, where you really push yourself at times, then build around them with the longer aerobic level sessions you're thinking of. Do these as you can fit them in, both schedule-wise and being able to recover for the higher intensity sessions.  Bryan has said he never rides less than IM pace before, I've been doing that too (outside of warm-up, cool-down and recoveries between efforts). If I can't make IM pace or it's noticeably harder than it should be, I cut the ride short as the rest will likely do me better.

Volume is beneficial in swimming and biking, that's why the pros will do it. It's not quite as economical in terms of time for age-groupers though. The longer ones will help with holding power longer as opposed to creating more. As you get progressively closer to the event, knowing pacing will become more important, so the longer rides will help out more then. But for now, keep going with the intensity to build up power development. Most people can learn to scale their efforts for longer distance pretty well later on.

2011-11-26 2:04 PM
in reply to: #3915021

Master
7693
50002000500100252525
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen
morey000 - 2011-11-25 5:05 PM

jsnowash - 2011-11-25 1:25 PM... What I'm wondering about is -- does this hold true for bike and swim as well? I have found that I can maintain or improve bike fitness on shorter, higher intensity training. Would it be better to take some "aerobic base building" time for the bike as well?

Same question.  I have proven to myself in running that speed work and races are brutal on my body, but I can log a lot of slow miles without injury and come race day, astonish myself at how fast I am, without having ever run anywhere near that fast in training.  I don't think this works for cycling though, but I'm not sure.

My question for cycling is how effective is group riding, where you hang in the middle of the group most of the time at an easy pace, and then kill yourself when it's your turn at the front. 

Swimming- eh, it's so much more about technique than training.

For the groups, you certainly can ride in them.  It depends on how easy is "easy". Lieto does this a lot, and in groups of 40+ too.  He'll break off the front when he's going to do intervals or tempos, riding solo or pulling for anyone who can actually hold on. If you can figure out how to keep your easier sections up high enough, then sure. If it's too much pleasure cruising, then I don't see as much benefit unless you otherwise would not have been doing anything.

They can also help you be willing to push yourself more, to break out of sustaining similar efforts all the time. Some of my highest efforts come from trying to run down breakaways.

2011-11-26 3:14 PM
in reply to: #3915601

User image

Pro
4350
200020001001001002525
Wallingford, PA
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen
brigby1 - 2011-11-26 2:58 PM

jsnowash - 2011-11-25 3:25 PM So..... just curious.... I would say that I follow the build an easy base protocol for running. Pretty much every bit of my running at the moment is at a very easy pace. I've found that works well for me. What I'm wondering about is -- does this hold true for bike and swim as well? I have found that I can maintain or improve bike fitness on shorter, higher intensity training. Would it be better to take some "aerobic base building" time for the bike as well?

Like Bryan said, swimming and biking don't have the injury risk of running because of the lack of impact & eccentric loading. In possibly oversimplifying things, swimming and biking have kind of the reverse idea as running.  Do several hard sessions a week, where you really push yourself at times, then build around them with the longer aerobic level sessions you're thinking of. Do these as you can fit them in, both schedule-wise and being able to recover for the higher intensity sessions.  Bryan has said he never rides less than IM pace before, I've been doing that too (outside of warm-up, cool-down and recoveries between efforts). If I can't make IM pace or it's noticeably harder than it should be, I cut the ride short as the rest will likely do me better.

Volume is beneficial in swimming and biking, that's why the pros will do it. It's not quite as economical in terms of time for age-groupers though. The longer ones will help with holding power longer as opposed to creating more. As you get progressively closer to the event, knowing pacing will become more important, so the longer rides will help out more then. But for now, keep going with the intensity to build up power development. Most people can learn to scale their efforts for longer distance pretty well later on.



Thanks. That's good to hear, because it's basically how I've been approaching my training
2011-11-26 4:04 PM
in reply to: #3914689

User image

Champion
9601
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen
Yeah, any ride my coach or I qualify as "aerobic" is done at IM effort. The only time that was a real challenge was when he had me do that....for 8 hours/160 miles....twice.
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Heart Rate Training per Mark Allen Rss Feed