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2011-12-13 7:29 AM

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Subject: What Am I Doing Wrong?

I’m pretty frustrated this morning and was hoping you guys could provide advice and/or make me feel better.  I have my mind set on running a marathon in March but keep getting derailed by injuries.  Logs are complete for all of 2011 but here’s the qualitative overlay:

  • 2010 – first real year with any measurable training, ran ~625 miles.
  • Summer 2011 – running 24-28 miles/week in 3-5 runs, completed HIM in September.
  • Sep/Oct – decide to focus on running 6x/week, ramp 30, 33, then 36, ~20% fast/80% easy.
  • Oct – right IT band & foot injuries.  Ramped up too quickly, and too much of it was ‘fast’.  That was stupid. 
  • Oct – have to take 3 weeks really easy for right IT band & foot issues, start doing lateral strengthening & stretching.
  • Nov/Dec – ramp back up with miles all easy, 27, 30, 33, 25 (recovery), 36.  

Now we’re current.  Additional color: Pace the last month or two is about 30s/mile faster than it had been in hotter weather.  Also, if you look at my short runs many of them will look oddly fast – I run many of those on an indoor track and I’m about 15-30s/mile faster on that than outdoors due to flatness – and for all I know it could be a little short.

Near the end of my long run Saturday my knee started hurting pretty noticeably.  Took Sunday off then it started acting up again during my short run yesterday.  Bad enough that I can’t maintain form.  The weird thing is that there’s no discomfort at all just walking around, but when I land on that knee running it’s pretty bad.  Also, both of my feet hurt just standing, so I feel like a grandma mincing around.

So what say you, BT – should I just bag this Marathonplan, take it easy through the holidays, be happy doing 20-30/week this offseason, and stop putting this pressure on myself?  If I take a week or two easy but still want to train for theMarathonI would have to really scale down my plan to the Higdon Intermediate/Beginner/something along those lines.  If I don’t take some time off I’m afraid this knee and foot stuff is only going to get worse.  When your feet hurt it really kind of messes with everything.



2011-12-13 7:58 AM
in reply to: #3936141

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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?

I haven't looked at your logs yet, but from your description above, your mileage increases seem fine. You've identified, in a few places, that you tend to push the pace. There really really really is value in running a lot of slow miles. So that's my guess #1.

The injuries and niggles that you mention jump to shoes for me. How much mileage on your current pair and are you certain you're in the right shoe for your foot strike? Do you know your foot strike? Are you sure? Some kid at Dick's probably didn't evaluate you correctly if that's where you went. Do you have a local running store that can help you with this regard?

2011-12-13 8:06 AM
in reply to: #3936186

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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
BernardDogs - 2011-12-13 8:58 AM

I haven't looked at your logs yet, but from your description above, your mileage increases seem fine. You've identified, in a few places, that you tend to push the pace. There really really really is value in running a lot of slow miles. So that's my guess #1.

The injuries and niggles that you mention jump to shoes for me. How much mileage on your current pair and are you certain you're in the right shoe for your foot strike? Do you know your foot strike? Are you sure? Some kid at Dick's probably didn't evaluate you correctly if that's where you went. Do you have a local running store that can help you with this regard?

I get my shoes from a local running store in a nice part of town that folks think highly of. About two years ago they said I something-something pronated and set me up with Saucony Glides (I think). I've just re-ordered the same model each time since then, but maybe this particular pair is different in some fashion.

Also, when I went to a sports medicine place in October to look at my IT band and foot, he looked at my gait and the wear on my work shoes and said it looked like I had a pretty neutral stride.

I think my current pair was purchased in early October...Hmmm.

Maybe time to get a new pair and have them re-analyze my gait. Can't hurt.

Re: pushing the pace, I've run every run for the last month in zone two, with heart rates below 150. Good start. Anybody else?

2011-12-13 8:17 AM
in reply to: #3936141

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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?

Why not take the time off now to give your knee/feet a chance to rest? Scaling down the plan to the HH intermediate doesn't sound so bad. What plan are you currently using?

I have knee problems that have stopped me cold for many months at a time, so I might be on the cautious side.

2011-12-13 9:33 AM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
go see a specialist.  I am betting you can keep running and just maybe need some ART followed by some PT.  That's been my experience. 
2011-12-13 9:38 AM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
bzgl40 - 2011-12-13 10:33 AMgo see a specialist.  I am betting you can keep running and just maybe need some ART followed by some PT.  That's been my experience. 
Are you thinking sports medicine or orthopedist/MD of some type? I go to Greenapple sports medicine here in town sometimes and they're pretty highly thought of in the athlete community I think, but curious if you were thinking of something 'stronger.'


2011-12-13 9:41 AM
in reply to: #3936198

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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
I get my shoes from a local running store in a nice part of town that folks think highly of. About two years ago they said I something-something pronated and set me up with Saucony Glides (I think). I've just re-ordered the same model each time since then, but maybe this particular pair is different in some fashion.

Also, when I went to a sports medicine place in October to look at my IT band and foot, he looked at my gait and the wear on my work shoes and said it looked like I had a pretty neutral stride.

I think my current pair was purchased in early October...Hmmm.

Maybe time to get a new pair and have them re-analyze my gait. Can't hurt.

 

Re: pushing the pace, I've run every run for the last month in zone two, with heart rates below 150. Good start. Anybody else?

 

I think you could stand to hone in on this a bit more. If you are a neutral runner in a motion control or stability shoe, it would not be at all surprising to learn that you're feeling it in the knees and, ultimately, having issues show up in the IT band.

See what running 2 runs per week in Zone 1 feels like. I'm serious. I'm currently in 19:30 5k shape and ran my recovery run this morning at an 8:58 pace ... right at the top end of my Zone 1. That's pretty typical for me at least twice per week. You won't lose any speed and you'll be far more fresh to really nail any of the speed workouts you want to employ to eventually get faster. Right now, though, if I were you, I'd be focusing on volume at a very easy pace (again, to include some into your Z1 range). 

After you get your injuries sorted out. 



Edited by BernardDogs 2011-12-13 9:41 AM
2011-12-13 9:48 AM
in reply to: #3936420

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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?

bruce_v - 2011-12-13 7:38 AM
bzgl40 - 2011-12-13 10:33 AMgo see a specialist.  I am betting you can keep running and just maybe need some ART followed by some PT.  That's been my experience. 
Are you thinking sports medicine or orthopedist/MD of some type? I go to Greenapple sports medicine here in town sometimes and they're pretty highly thought of in the athlete community I think, but curious if you were thinking of something 'stronger.'

Your thinking in line with what I am thinking of.  I personally go to a chiropractor who specializes in sports issues and utilizes ART.  He of course cannot prescribe me PT but he's able to tell me what is most likely causing my issues and make recommendations as to what to do to prevent them from coming back.



Edited by bzgl40 2011-12-13 9:48 AM
2011-12-13 9:49 AM
in reply to: #3936141

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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
The knee pain:

Which knee? Where is the pain located (side, front, back, below, above...)? When running, does the pain last when you stop, or does it fade relatively quickly? Any other times besides running where it is noticeable?


The foot pain:

Dull aches, or sharp stabbing pain? Is the pain in the heel, arch, or ball of foot? How long does it take before the pain starts? How long until it goes away (after sitting down)? Does it come just from standing, or from walking around? Do you feel it more in one pair of shoes than another? How much time have you spent walking around recently, especially on weekends? Been spending time shopping, or out and about?
2011-12-13 9:51 AM
in reply to: #3936427

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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
BernardDogs - 2011-12-13 8:41 AM
I get my shoes from a local running store in a nice part of town that folks think highly of. About two years ago they said I something-something pronated and set me up with Saucony Glides (I think). I've just re-ordered the same model each time since then, but maybe this particular pair is different in some fashion.

Also, when I went to a sports medicine place in October to look at my IT band and foot, he looked at my gait and the wear on my work shoes and said it looked like I had a pretty neutral stride.

I think my current pair was purchased in early October...Hmmm.

Maybe time to get a new pair and have them re-analyze my gait. Can't hurt.

 

Re: pushing the pace, I've run every run for the last month in zone two, with heart rates below 150. Good start. Anybody else?

 

I think you could stand to hone in on this a bit more. If you are a neutral runner in a motion control or stability shoe, it would not be at all surprising to learn that you're feeling it in the knees and, ultimately, having issues show up in the IT band.

See what running 2 runs per week in Zone 1 feels like. I'm serious. I'm currently in 19:30 5k shape and ran my recovery run this morning at an 8:58 pace ... right at the top end of my Zone 1. That's pretty typical for me at least twice per week. You won't lose any speed and you'll be far more fresh to really nail any of the speed workouts you want to employ to eventually get faster. Right now, though, if I were you, I'd be focusing on volume at a very easy pace (again, to include some into your Z1 range). 

After you get your injuries sorted out. 

Agree with your point about neutral gait with motion control shoes which Saucony Guides are.  It is entirely possible that your gait has changed since you were set up 2 years ago in the Guides.  Get re-evaluated, talk to them about what is going on perhaps try a more neutral shoe. 

2011-12-13 1:18 PM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Scout7 - 2011-12-13 10:49 AMThe knee pain:Which knee? Where is the pain located (side, front, back, below, above...)? When running, does the pain last when you stop, or does it fade relatively quickly? Any other times besides running where it is noticeable?

Left knee. Dead center of leg just above knee, kind of like a dull achy weakness - like getting jabbed with the blunt end of a dull stick. Hurts every time I land on that foot. No discomfort whatsoever just walking - literally 5 seconds after I stop it feels fine.

Not sure how likely it is to be a coincidence, but I had knee discomfort on the trainer last night for the first time as well, except that was more stabby on a line connecting middle inside of left knee to upper outside.

Scout7 - 2011-12-13 10:49 AMThe foot pain:Dull aches, or sharp stabbing pain? Is the pain in the heel, arch, or ball of foot? How long does it take before the pain starts? How long until it goes away (after sitting down)? Does it come just from standing, or from walking around? Do you feel it more in one pair of shoes than another? How much time have you spent walking around recently, especially on weekends? Been spending time shopping, or out and about?

Dull aches in right foot whenever I put any weight on it - even lightly resting it on the ground at my desk. In the ball of the foot. I find myself constantly moving it around touching the ground, kind of like a sore tooth, checking to see if it still hurts. I've actually switched out my work shoes as that's helped in the past but no luck this time.

I pretty frequently walk around with my three year old, we go on 1-2 mile walks 2-4 times per week. Went shopping on Friday, spent 2-3 hours in Nordstrom walking around and trying on clothes.

-----------

Not sure how helpful that all is, but love to hear what you can make of it.

Edited by bruce_v 2011-12-13 1:19 PM



2011-12-13 1:31 PM
in reply to: #3936983

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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Does the knee pain intensify when going up or down hill? Do you develop any stiffness after you've been sitting for a while? Any swelling or locking of your knee or surrounding areas? How far into a run do you start to feel it?

The foot.... Sounds like you might have bruised something. Possible that you stepped on something, like a rock? Could also be related to your mechanics and your shoes, and the knee issue could also be related to shoes as well. I know that I develop odd little aches and pains in my feet and legs when the shoes are not doing me any good.

However.... the knee issue could also be some form of tendonitis, which will take a while to heal up to a point where you can run without pain. The toe issue could be a symptom of Morton's neuroma as well, depending on other potential symptoms. Any tingling in your toes? Cramping?
2011-12-13 1:33 PM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?

Are you alternating two pairs of running shoes and using a quality ortho-insert?  Running that kind of mileage doesn't give the one pair's foam to recover - best to alternate shoes and keep track of what shoe you ran in last by the pair which has the quality insert.

2011-12-13 1:40 PM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
pocodino - 2011-12-13 2:33 PM

Are you alternating two pairs of running shoes and using a quality ortho-insert?  Running that kind of mileage doesn't give the one pair's foam to recover - best to alternate shoes and keep track of what shoe you ran in last by the pair which has the quality insert.



huh?
2011-12-13 1:45 PM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Scout7 - 2011-12-13 2:40 PM
pocodino - 2011-12-13 2:33 PM

Are you alternating two pairs of running shoes and using a quality ortho-insert?  Running that kind of mileage doesn't give the one pair's foam to recover - best to alternate shoes and keep track of what shoe you ran in last by the pair which has the quality insert.

huh?

 

Agreed. Ortho inserts are over used and over prescribed. I run in the same pair of shoes for training ... 6 days a week ... for up to 70 miles a week. And I weigh 195 lbs. You don't need two pair of trainers.

2011-12-13 1:55 PM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Scout7 - 2011-12-13 2:31 PMDoes the knee pain intensify when going up or down hill? Do you develop any stiffness after you've been sitting for a while? Any swelling or locking of your knee or surrounding areas? How far into a run do you start to feel it?

It's only been a few days. First experience was going down a hill 10.5 miles into run, naturally sped up a bit and it started hurting, then started feeling a little better going up the next hill. Second experience was on flat track, started 2.5 miles in, but no elevation to discuss. Third experience on trainer, started when I started doing warmup intervals.

Scout7 - 2011-12-13 2:31 PMThe foot.... Sounds like you might have bruised something. Possible that you stepped on something, like a rock? Could also be related to your mechanics and your shoes, and the knee issue could also be related to shoes as well. I know that I develop odd little aches and pains in my feet and legs when the shoes are not doing me any good.However.... the knee issue could also be some form of tendonitis, which will take a while to heal up to a point where you can run without pain. The toe issue could be a symptom of Morton's neuroma as well, depending on other potential symptoms. Any tingling in your toes? Cramping?

I was diagnosed with Morton's Neuroma back in October - did all the exercises, etc., to strengthen hips, stretch IT band, etc., and it seemed to be going away. When I had that, though, I had an 'electric twizzler' feeling that showed up intermittently in ball of feet and in between third and fourth toes, especially first thing in the morning and immediately after runs. This definitely feels more constant and bruise-y and more toward fourth toe / fifth toe...insofar as feelings are even remotely indicative. No cramping in my toes (except for occasionally during swims).



2011-12-13 2:08 PM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
At this point, I would start off by trying out new shoes. Something in a neutral type of shoe, without too much cushion. Personally, I've had good experiences with the Mizuno Wave Riders, but that's something along the lines of what I think would be a good starting place.

Second, I would reduce your mileage, and definitely drop your effort levels for a bit, at least until you can get new shoes and for an adjustment period afterwards. If necessary, a couple days off wouldn't hurt.

Monitor the foot and knee, to see if either get better. If my suspicion is right, the foot is basically a bruise or something along those lines, and resting it along with new shoes should help.

Now, the risk in my recommendation is that the symptoms you're seeing are signs of a potentially more serious issue that won't get better with new shoes, so you have to be aware (but not paranoid).
2011-12-13 2:22 PM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?

I would recommend going to an orthopedist.  The dull pain whenever you put weight on your foot sounds like you could have fractured a bone in your foot.  A good orthopedist specializing in sports medicine or knees/ankles can tell you exactly what's wrong, take x-rays to confirm, and send you to a PT.  If the specialize in sports medicine, they can probably tell you what type of shoe you should be wearing also.

My wife had IT band issues over the summer, she went to an orthopedist then PT.  She found out that she needed motion control shoes and needed to shorten her stride and increase her cadence. Now we are training for a half mary in March.  She is back running stronger than ever without any pain.

2011-12-13 4:50 PM
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Here's the update.  I went to a sports medicine place and there's [something - muscle/ligament/cord, I can't remember] that runs from the ball of my foot and up my calf that's just not moving like it should.  He did a lot of range of motion stuff on my left leg and doesn't see any problems over there.  The right ankle is another story.  Basically any time he put pressure on my toes upward it hurt, and when he pulled downward on the top of my foot/ankle I wanted to scream.  He ran some x-rays that he'll review to be sure there's not another problem.

Here's his view: my ankle and toes can't flex the way they should.  I have an odd callus pattern that indicates that I've been spinning my foot rather than lifting and striding and taking smaller steps / lifting up earlier with the right leg to compensate.  This loads up my left leg up and that's probably the cause of left knee discomfort.

Prescription: Take a few days off, use The Stick on foot and especially calf, follow up in two days.  From there we'll talk about shoes and whether I need to make a change in what I do with that foot through the running motion.

Thanks for your advice everyone.  One followup...vis-a-vis the 10% rule, how do I adjust to a 'missed' week?  Continue on and break the 10% next week or move the whole plan back or what?

 

EDIT: He also gave me some things to stick inside my shoes that go just below the ball of my foot that should help distribute the weight across my toes better.



Edited by bruce_v 2011-12-13 4:52 PM
2011-12-13 10:18 PM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
bruce_v - 2011-12-13 3:50 PM

Here's the update.  I went to a sports medicine place and there's [something - muscle/ligament/cord, I can't remember] that runs from the ball of my foot and up my calf that's just not moving like it should.  He did a lot of range of motion stuff on my left leg and doesn't see any problems over there.  The right ankle is another story.  Basically any time he put pressure on my toes upward it hurt, and when he pulled downward on the top of my foot/ankle I wanted to scream.  He ran some x-rays that he'll review to be sure there's not another problem.

Here's his view: my ankle and toes can't flex the way they should.  I have an odd callus pattern that indicates that I've been spinning my foot rather than lifting and striding and taking smaller steps / lifting up earlier with the right leg to compensate.  This loads up my left leg up and that's probably the cause of left knee discomfort.

Prescription: Take a few days off, use The Stick on foot and especially calf, follow up in two days.  From there we'll talk about shoes and whether I need to make a change in what I do with that foot through the running motion.

Thanks for your advice everyone.  One followup...vis-a-vis the 10% rule, how do I adjust to a 'missed' week?  Continue on and break the 10% next week or move the whole plan back or what?

 

EDIT: He also gave me some things to stick inside my shoes that go just below the ball of my foot that should help distribute the weight across my toes better.



This actually sounds to me like a pretty thorough and insightful diagnosis, combining the physical exam findings with knowledge of running biomechanics. I predict you are in good hands with this practitioner. Was this an MD, DO, DC, PT???
2011-12-14 6:54 AM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Two options for a missed week, each option depends on how you feel.

Option 1: Stick to the plan as is. Ignore the missed training and just pick up with the scheduled training.

Option 2: Start where you left off. If you have time, just start back where you were before the downtime.


Personally, for a week off, I would probably go with 1. I don't think the injury risk is going to be that significant. Besides, the 10% rule isn't really a rule (see other thread).


2011-12-14 7:16 AM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?
bruce_v - 2011-12-13 2:29 PM

So what say you, BT – should I just bag this Marathonplan, take it easy through the holidays, be happy doing 20-30/week this offseason, and stop putting this pressure on myself?  If I take a week or two easy but still want to train for theMarathonI would have to really scale down my plan to the Higdon Intermediate/Beginner/something along those lines.  If I don’t take some time off I’m afraid this knee and foot stuff is only going to get worse.  When your feet hurt it really kind of messes with everything.

You gave yourself an answer here.

2011-12-14 11:40 AM
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Subject: RE: What Am I Doing Wrong?

AdventureBear - 2011-12-13 11:18 PM This actually sounds to me like a pretty thorough and insightful diagnosis, combining the physical exam findings with knowledge of running biomechanics. I predict you are in good hands with this practitioner. Was this an MD, DO, DC, PT???

Great to hear, thanks.  I went to Greenapple Sports Medicine, as they've been great in the past for me and for some real athletes.  I just looked on the website to see what the indicated credentials were for my particular person: D.C., C.C.E.P. MEd.  I don't really know what any of those means.

As I was telling my wife last night, though, what I really like about him/them is that I can tell what he's checking for, how he narrows it down, and then builds enough of a narrative around what's going on that I can understand it.  When I leave there, I understand it enough that I can tell it like a story, "This happened, so I started doing this, which caused this other problem, and when it couldn't hold up any more, that's why suddenly I couldn't walk."

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