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2011-12-27 10:45 PM

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Subject: Newbie running questions...
Okay, honest answer for an honest question...As some of you may know, I'm preparing for a marathon on Jan. 15th and I'm a bit behind the curve as far as my training is concerned. (Thought the race was the last week of Jan. not the 2nd) I attempted my first 20 miles on Saturday and I couldn't make it past 16 miles. (When I say I couldn't make it, I mean I literally had to call for a ride.) In my defense, I was snacking on unhealthy holiday treats all day the previous day, wasn't hydrated and didn't stretch very well. So tonight I go out and try to conquer a 22 miler...16.3 miles, I'm done. It was just too much. I live by the rule, "discomfort is expected, pain is good, but agony is bad." Both attempts left me in agony. Tonight I used my new Timex Global trainer for the first time so I was able to track my pace like I've never done before. I found that for the first 8 miles I was right around the 8:40/mile mark, the next 4 miles I was closer to 10:00/miles and by the last 4 miles I was cruising at around 11:00/mile until I had to stop. Do you think it would be beneficial for me to start at around 10 min miles and see if I can go longer distances??? For me, I don't really feel that slowing down feels any better for my legs. But at the same time, I've never really tried to take a slower pace until my legs give me no other option...I'm attempting another 22 miles in a few days with my GF who will set the pace. She's quiet a bit slower than me, but can run longer distances. Do you think that will help?? If I can't do it on my next try, I'm seriously considering going down to the half. Have you ever had to do a shorter distance than you signed up for?? I just think I will feel defeated no matter how well I do...What would you do???


2011-12-27 11:54 PM
in reply to: #3956808

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
For what it's worth, I spoke with a friend of mine who has been doing marathons for awhile and she told me I was basically pacing myself backwards...Instead of starting out under 9 min/mi I should have started slower and increased slightly as I go. She did comfort me by saying it was a rookie mistake and that she's made it before. Smile We also talked about hydrating/fueling and what not...Although she's not a running coach she runs sub 4's and it sounded good to me. I'm gonna give it a shot...
2011-12-27 11:55 PM
in reply to: #3956808

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...

Yes, do start out easier. 

More importantly, what have your other runs been like? Are these recent long runs much more than you have been doing otherwise? The fact that you appear surprised at the results suggest that they are. 

2011-12-28 12:38 AM
in reply to: #3956843

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
Yes, I am new to long distance running...I gradually worked up to 15-16 mile runs and have been doing one a week at that distance for about four weeks. (I also do two more runs a week for 8-12 miles.) This was only my 5th run over 15 miles. I definitely under estimated the distance and the worst thing I did was mistakenly think the race was later in the month. (I swear there is a race that weekend somewhere. Embarassed) I think that pacing myself is going to be key...I had it in my head that I was going to do 9 min/miles so my approach was get as many fast miles in right away to make up for the slow ones at the end. I am still very ignorant...learning every day.
2011-12-28 1:13 AM
in reply to: #3956808

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...

Not a lot of time left to go until your race, so some compromises are inevitable at this point. I think the best advice is what you've already heard: start out easier. Like easy enough that it feels trivial. A marathon is a long way, so that's what you want at the start. With all of the punishment that you've already subjected yourself to in the past few days, I'd suggest not to try 22 miles again a few days. Instead just head out easy and try to do 18-20. At this point you'll start running into a serious injury risk with the long runs that you've been attempting off a limited base, and getting hurt and missing the race would be far worse than getting around slowly.

One benefit of starting out slowly is that at easier paces your body is able to derive more of its energy from fat burning, which leaves more of your precious muscle glycogen resources for later on.

If you've been doing a couple of 8-12 mile runs in addition to the long run each week, then that is a good thing. The medium length runs are important. But next time you prep for a marathon, you probably should be aiming for rather more than 3 runs per week. Run 6-7 days per week. ... But that's next time. No time for that kind of change right now.

2011-12-28 1:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
Like others have said I'd start off slowly - and hold the pace.  I wouldn't try to speed up during your long run.  Don't forget that teh training benefits of your long run are derived from the time you spend on your feet.  I've dropped from a marathon to a half once.  During the training I came down with a very bad case of ITBS and couldn't run any significant distances for about a month.  I thought it wise to do a distance I was fully comfortable with.  That said - what marathon training plan have you used?  How far along on it?  The 20 miler in every marathon training plan is not the holy grail ... if you've got the training base the 20 miler is the cherry on the cake.


2011-12-28 7:31 AM
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Runner
Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
When you say that the runs left you in agony, what exactly do you mean?
2011-12-28 8:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...

In all honesty, I'm not sure you should be running a marathon in two weeks.

That being said, if you are bound and determined, please make one more compromise. Do not "race" this marathon. Just run it for the sake of enjoying your time on the course. Do not set a time goal. And yes ... start much more slowly ... like approaching 10 min/mile. And do this for the race as well. You're going to be tempted by the exhilaration of race day, the crowds, and the other runners.

Don't take that temptation.

Make your race plan TODAY ... promise yourself you're going to hold back at the start and force yourself into a 10 minute range for those first 5-10 miles. Plan YOUR race then race YOUR plan. You'll be amazed at how much enjoyment you'll get out of the final miles as well as how many people you'll be passing.

2011-12-28 8:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
Yeah, not really optimal training. First, throw your time goals out the window. Your goal is to finish. Period. You have to keep a pace that you feel you can keep all day long. And then go slower. Take a walk break at every water stop (or every mile or 10 mins during your long run.) Just enjoy the surroundings. On your last long run, go for 3 hours, regardless of your distance. If you have to walk the final miles, so be it. Maybe jog a little. Just keep moving forward. You can finish the marathon. Save your time goals for another race. There'll be others.
2011-12-28 10:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...

I'm running the Houston Marathon on Jan 15, and my last 20-miler was this past weekend. With things getting close, I would starting thinking about taper / rest rather than a 20 or 22 mile run only a week or two before the event. I'm following one on the Pfitz plans, so I ran 20 this past weekend, will do 16 this Sunday, and then drop down to 12 the weekend before the race. If the longest run you've had in your build has been 16-miles, it seems to me like your plan to try and do 22-miles just 2 or 2-1/2 weeks before your race is very high risk, with the down-side being injury and fatigue. If you feel you need another long run soon, I'd certainly suggest very slow pace and not upping your distance dramatically. It's pretty unrealistic to think that you'll make any sort of "break-trough" fitness gains this close to the race.

Personally, I'd switch to the half if my long run less than 3-weeks out was only 16-miles.....or I'd mentally prepare myself with a "just finish & enjoy the sufferfest" goal.

2011-12-28 10:45 AM
in reply to: #3956808

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...

Thank you all for the great replies...A lot of good advice and I'm feeling good about just "finishing" this run. I don't fancy myself a runner (by far my least favorite of the three disciplines.) , but I figured I had to get this distance out of the way because I'm doing an Ironman in November. (I've since read that that's not necessarily the case.) This will probably be the last marathon that I sign up for. Not because of the challenge of the distance, but because I enjoy the other training so much more and this was more of an "experience the distance" decision.  I guess to answer that one poster's question, "what do I consider agony", it was basically so painful I had to sit down to get the pressure off of my legs because it hurt too much...It wasn't cramping, not a muscle pull. Just overall mind numbing pain from my feet to my groin. I consider myself to have a decent level of mental toughness and it wasn't a matter of I can't go on anymore, but at the point of stopping I felt that going further would cause more damage than good. My original goal was to run a sub 4, but as someone suggested, I'm throwing that out the window. I will opt for a shorter taper (2 weeks) and try again on Sunday at a much slower pace...

 

And to whoever asked, I'm not following a plan per se. My "plan" was to do one long run per week slightly increasing the distance each time, throw in a 6-8 mile tempo run and a 10-12 mile at race pace, shake it up and see what comes out...(If you'll remember, I did plan on an additional two weeks of training until I saw that the race was on the 15th.) This has been a huge learning experience if nothing else.

 

Thanks again, and I'll keep ya'll posted...



2011-12-28 10:51 AM
in reply to: #3957592

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
Based on the fact that you experience that much physical pain, I'd say you've got unresolved issues that need to be addressed before you actually participate in the marathon itself.

First check your shoes to see if they could be causing the pain. Second, ease up on your pace/effort, and see if that helps. If neither of those are helping, then I would definitely consider first going to a specialist and then bagging the race.

If your real goal is an IronMan in November, it really won't do you much good to start the year off with a potential injury.
2011-12-28 11:03 AM
in reply to: #3957605

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
Scout7 - 2011-12-28 8:51 AM Based on the fact that you experience that much physical pain, I'd say you've got unresolved issues that need to be addressed before you actually participate in the marathon itself. First check your shoes to see if they could be causing the pain. Second, ease up on your pace/effort, and see if that helps. If neither of those are helping, then I would definitely consider first going to a specialist and then bagging the race. If your real goal is an IronMan in November, it really won't do you much good to start the year off with a potential injury.

 

 

It's actually interesting that you say this...When I was younger, I had to wear special shoes because of the way feet angled outward. I don't want to sound too mean, but "duck walk" is what I heard from a lot of the kids growing up. While it's much better as an adult, I still walk slightly different than most people. I've always wondered if that is affecting me today and if that much pain is normal and just last night I talked to my GF about setting up an appointment with a specialist. That will be my next step...I run in Newtons. They were recommended to me by a sports chiropractor after analyzing my run stride. I was also wondering if changing the insoles would help or if the ones in the shoe unique to the set-up??



Edited by GoodStash 2011-12-28 11:05 AM
2011-12-28 11:12 AM
in reply to: #3956808

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...

I think you could start slower during the race and finish it just fine. Don't put the pressure of a time goal on yourself; either that, or make it a VERY reasonable time goal.

When I ran a marathon, I was running 3 days a week. I did get my 20 mile run in but I took it WAY slowly. It ended up being 40 seconds per mile over the pace I pulled off for the marathon. Other than that, I managed 2 or 3 15 mile runs and the rest were all shorter. I had plans to run more but was plagued by injury and life during training.

I had been planning on a sub-4:30 and changed it to a much more doable goal of 5. (Yeah, people SAY don't run with a time goal but my brain likes to set one anyway.) I started with a 4:45 pace group (which I very much recommend, it'll help you hold back at the beginning) and ended up letting them go ahead of me at mile 21, which is when I started taking walk breaks to get through the last 5 miles. In the end, it was an enjoyable experience and I never felt any unusual degree of suffering (despite people telling me I was way undertrained and was going to be miserable....nope, I just ran it conservatively and I did ok!) Just take it all in and enjoy the crowds, the scenery, and the comeraderie. At your pace, people will be friendly rather than competitive.

Oh yeah, I came in at 4:53 and I was good with that.

2011-12-28 11:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
I'm really interested in why a chiro would suggest newtons for a specific running style. Newtons are designed to "force" (that might be too strong of a word) the runner into a mid-foot strike. That won't necessarily connect to however your foot naturally strikes.

I "duck walk" as a result of tibial torsion. My lower leg bones rotate outward, causing my legs to fly out to the side during my run. I also under pronate, but that has little to do with my tibial torsion. This is all to say that running shoes matter ... but almost entirely because of how your foot normally hits the pavement. If you're not naturally a midfoot striker and you're increasing your long runs like you've been doing (rather suddenly), those Newtons could be causing you significant problems.

Go to a running store (not Dick's) and find someone who knows how to evaluate your foot strike and ALSO knows how different shoes are meant to work with different foot strikes. If your chiro is not a runner but is locked into the mindset that everyone should be a mid to forefoot striker, you may want a new chiro. Find a RUNNING doctor/PT/chiro.

The short story: People with higher, more rigid, arches tend to need a neutral and/or a cushioned shoe.

People with flatter feet tend to need some form of motion control/stability shoe.

I'm a firm believer that there are SO many varieties of shoes out there that most people don't need additional inserts. Those are just there because of the huge profit the stores can make on a piece of foam.

But here's the catch ... you also shouldn't be changing your shoes 2 weeks out from a marathon. I will, again, advise you to consider dropping this particular marathon. You're running in pain. Not good. 
2011-12-28 11:21 AM
in reply to: #3956808

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...

You have no logs or race results and the information you provided is so limited it's difficult to see what's going on. What does your training look like as far as your training pace compared with your race pace? Long runs are typically not done anywhere near race pace. The goal is to get in the distance, not to run fast while doing it. So it sounds like your goal was to run sub 4, or about a 9 minute pace. Then you go out and try to do a long run at a faster pace than your expected race pace. See the problem? Instead you should be doing the long at 60-90 seconds per mile slower than race pace, but you can increase the pace toward the end of the run. These slower long runs are what help build endurance, but they should be coupled with increased overall volume so they're no longer than about 30% or so of weekly mileage. It sounds like you're much closer to 50%. Another problem.

At tis point the only thing doing another long run is going to do is provide a little mental boost. You're too close to the race for it to have much of a physical benefit. As someone else suggested, it may be best to only do 18-20 at this point. Your recent long run attempts may have been too close together to allow your body to properly recover, especially since you've been doing them incorrectly and you don't have the necessary overall volume to support multiple longs in a short period.

At this point your only goal should be to finish. Throw the time goals away. Run at an easy pace for at least the first 20 miles and only pick it up if you feel any energy left. Next time use a proper training plan so you won't find yourself in this predicament.



2011-12-28 11:43 AM
in reply to: #3957691

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...

BernardDogs - 2011-12-28 9:20 AM  If your chiro is not a runner but is locked into the mindset that everyone should be a mid to forefoot striker, you may want a new chiro. Find a RUNNING doctor/PT/chiro.
 

 

I actually don't see a chiro often, in fact, I went to this guy because he was highly recommended by other local triathletes. He specializes in working with athletes and is very active in the "tri community" organizing races, giving seminars, etc...Also, he is a multi-Ironman finisher. I'm not saying that his word is gold, by any means, but I wanted to clarify that I'm not just going to some guy with a cool title. I have always been a fore foot striker...In fact, as my every-day shoes start to age the toe will start to angle up almost like elf shoes. I've always contributed this to my "weird walk". It was one of the first things he noticed when analyzing my stride and said that I should try the Newtons and the Brooks Revennas. Ran in the Brooks for awhile and switched to the Newtons in late August. The longest run I ever did in the Revennas didn't go over 11 miles, but I always thought they felt great. (I switched because of all the great things I read about them here and other places. ) Maybe it's time to go back after my next race and check it out??? Thanks again, everybody...

2011-12-28 12:00 PM
in reply to: #3956808

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
One other potential issue to consider here is shin splints. The fact that your overall volume is low, and you have harder efforts in there for a good portion of your weekly volume would make me lean toward this possibility as well. You may very well just be outrunning your body's current abilities to handle the stress you are putting on it.

I agree with Bernard, I think the marathon at this point is not the best idea.
2011-12-28 12:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
I take it you're running RnR AZ?  Next time you need shoes go see Jake at Tribe or head up to Sole Sports  See you out there and good luck.
2011-12-28 1:13 PM
in reply to: #3957766

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...

GoodStash - 2011-12-28 12:43 PM The longest run I ever did in the Revennas didn't go over 11 miles, but I always thought they felt great. (I switched because of all the great things I read about them here and other places. ) Maybe it's time to go back after my next race and check it out??? Thanks again, everybody...

 

Maybe it's time to run a marathon in them? If they felt great and you've got an 11 miler plus additional mileage in them ... and you've got the kind of pain you describe when you run in Newtons, the choice is easy, IMO.

I think it's worth considering the Revennas for the marathon. You've got pretty clear feedback from the Newtons. I don't think you'll get much worse from the Brooks.

When I find a shoe that works and feels great, I stay with it until changes are made that keep them from feeling great. 

2011-12-28 1:33 PM
in reply to: #3958026

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
BernardDogs - 2011-12-28 11:13 AM

 

 

Maybe it's time to run a marathon in them? If they felt great and you've got an 11 miler plus additional mileage in them ... and you've got the kind of pain you describe when you run in Newtons, the choice is easy, IMO.

I think it's worth considering the Revennas for the marathon. You've got pretty clear feedback from the Newtons. I don't think you'll get much worse from the Brooks.

When I find a shoe that works and feels great, I stay with it until changes are made that keep them from feeling great. 

 

The only problem is my current Revennas are beat up (turned them into my everyday/work/everything shoe after I retired them...) I would have to get a new pair. I would think that a new pair this close may be counter productive, but if I got them today I'd have time to put in some mileage?? Also, I don't usually experience any pain until around mile 14 to 15, then it's exponential after every block...I'm not sure if it's the distance or the shoe. Certainly worth giving it a shot and the revennas are quite a bit cheaper. Laughing



2011-12-28 2:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
I can usually run any distance on a shoe right out of the box. I've never really needed to "break them in". Certainly, two weeks is plenty of time to get some mileage onto a pair before wearing them for an easy marathon.

If the Brooks truly feel like a great fit ... especially compared to the Newtons ... I'd trust your gut. 
2012-01-16 5:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
UPDATE:
For all 8 of you who chimed in Wink


After the good advice I got from you guys in here, I decided that I would try to take advantage of the time I had left to train and really go for the full marathon. BernardDog's advice was so simple yet played such a huge role in determining whether or not I was going to go for it...The advice? Go back to the shoes that worked. I immediately ordered a pair of the old Brooks Revennas and had them overnighted to me and took them out for 19 miles right out of the box. It was the first time that I went that distance without being in the pain that I described in this thread. I could literally tell that it was going to make a difference one mile into the run. I had a short 10 day taper and completed my first marathon yesterday. (you can view the stats in my training log.)  I followed everyone's advice and just had a great time waving to the supporters and to the numerous bands that played all day long for us. My time is nothing to brag about, but I finished strong and happy and had a great experience overall. Thank you BT for getting me through my first full Mary (official time- 5:04:29)...I didn't think I'd do another after this one, but I really want to sign up for next year's and see what I can do with a little better preperation.

Thanks again, everyone...

P.S. Best part of the story: Since the Revenna 2s have come out, my new Revenna 1's were only $46.00!!! Thinking about stocking up on a couple more pairs at that price
2012-01-16 9:03 PM
in reply to: #3993675

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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...

GoodStash - 2012-01-16 6:21 PM I didn't think I'd do another after this one, but I really want to sign up for next year's and see what I can do with a little better preparation.

Wow - you know that you must have had a good day if you're looking forward to the next marathon just one day after the last one. Congrats on getting through, and good luck on the next one. 

2012-01-16 10:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Newbie running questions...
colinphillips - 2012-01-16 7:03 PM

GoodStash - 2012-01-16 6:21 PM I didn't think I'd do another after this one, but I really want to sign up for next year's and see what I can do with a little better preparation.

Wow - you know that you must have had a good day if you're looking forward to the next marathon just one day after the last one. Congrats on getting through, and good luck on the next one. 

 

I think I was so afraid of burning out on the course that I left a too much in the tank...On one hand, I'm happy that I had such a good time and that I finished on such a high note. On the other, part of me wishes that I left more out there and crossed with my last ounce of strength.

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