General Discussion Triathlon Talk » training on tiered legs or overtaining Rss Feed  
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2012-02-08 6:01 AM

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Subject: training on tiered legs or overtaining

Im doing 3:2:1 running and georges cycling plan (days 1,2,4) and my legs are always tiered.  Even more than when I was training for an IM.  I have been periodzing as normal but they still alwys feel tired.  I have only been doing 6 days of running per week for 2 months now before this it was 3 longer runs.

My question is how do you tell overtraining from good training and how do you know if you should workout through it or if you need a few days rest?



2012-02-08 6:19 AM
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Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining
What's your resting heart rate in the mornings? How does it compare with what it was last month?

As an age grouper the odds of you actually overtraining are the ever famous slim and none. Have your sleeping patterns changed? Are you moody as hell? Appetite gone? Those, from what I've read, are classic symptoms of overtraining.

If we took days off instead of training on tired legs I believe about half this board would only train every other day.

Easiest way is to do a RHR every morning and skip a day if it's 10 over normal. Dunno if that's the best method but it's a reasonable one that's easy enough to do without getting all fancy.

2012-02-08 7:38 AM
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Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining

I feel your pain!  I attempted to do Jorge's plan and train for a half-marathon last fall, and I don't think I ever had a run where I felt good. I guess the question would be what are you training for, when is the race, and how do you plan to taper? Also, are you able to do any recovery between workouts (getting off your feet)? In my case, I ended cutting back to two rides a week, and running five times (plus two swims) and even that left me exhausted and sleep-deprived. If it's just general base-building you're after, you're getting enough sleep, and not developing injuries, then sure, train on tired legs.  That's part of base-building, in any endurance sport.  If/when some of those runs become higher-intensity, or you're struggling with injury/illness, you may find that something has to give. If you're training for a marathon or half, I'd definitely cut back on the high-intensity biking at some point, and just cut it out when you start to taper.  

I know it's not a popular thing to say, but 3-2-1 is not gospel. It works well for many people, esp. those with a limited run background, but it depends on your athletic background, available recovery time, and  how well you can fit in an almost-daily run. In my case, I was sacrificing sleep to do more/shorter runs that didn't seem to really help my fitness. Test case--same HM, one year apart. 2010--averaged 40 miles a week peak in 3-4 runs. 2011-45-50 miles a week in 5-6 runs. My time for the latter (in better conditions) was seven seconds slower. No difference in injury--I have some chronic issues and they didn't get better or worse with doing my mileage in 3-4 days, or 5-6 days. On the plus side, my biking improved a lot from the Jorge workouts. (I'd only done an easy weekend ride the year before.)

In the end, experiment, and do what works for you. 

2012-02-08 7:46 AM
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Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining
Hot Runner - 2012-02-08 8:38 AM

  • ..If it's just general base-building you're after, you're getting enough sleep, and not developing injuries, then sure, train on tired legs.  That's part of base-building, in any endurance sport.  If/when some of those runs become higher-intensity, or you're struggling with injury/illness, you may find that something has to give. If you're training for a marathon or half, I'd definitely cut back on the high-intensity biking at some point, and just cut it out when you start to taper.  

  • I know it's not a popular thing to say, but 3-2-1 is not gospel. It works well for many people, esp. those with a limited run background, but it depends on your athletic background, available recovery time, and  how well you can fit in an almost-daily run....


    (I trimmed out stuff to highlight the points I wanted to address.)

    I agree wholeheartedly with the above.

    Everything is a balance. While I generally advocate for more running to get better at running, I would advocate even more for following a plan that works for you as an individual. If running five times a week leaves you dragging and is affecting the rest of your life, then cut back on your running. At some point, something will give, and may be something that is more important to you than training.
    2012-02-08 8:02 AM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining
    How about training with pain? I PR'd at a 5k on Sat and my left hamstring and right ankle hurt... Not a lot, it's manageable. I have two runs left this week, 2.30 and 3.8. Suffer through it or skip two out of four runs this week?
    2012-02-08 8:04 AM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining
    I agree with Scout & HotRunner. You need to figure out what works for you.

    Re: your running, I will ask - what kind of pace/effort/heart rate are you running at, and how are you progressing your runs? It MIGHT be that if you want to continue running 6 days per week (which you may or may not - depends on your goals, where you are in your season, etc.) you just need to either cut the duration and/or intensity of some of those runs. Also look at how you are timing your run workouts vs your cycling workouts. Are you running right after you ride, or allowing yourself a little recovery time in between? Are you trying to follow the "hard/easy" principle? IOW, if you do a killer bike workout that leaves your legs fried, your next run should probably be a short, easy, recovery effort run vs. a tempo or long run.

    There's nothing in your logs, so it's hard to know exactly how you're implementing these 2 programs, but it sounds like you need to change something.... It might be dropping a run or two per week, or it might be backing off on the intensity a bit for either running or cycling so you can continue to train effectively.


    2012-02-08 8:39 AM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining

    Just from experience and hanging out with other stronger runners as an ex-pure runner - 

    Running on tired legs in the NORM for high mileage programs like Pfitzinger Advanced Marathoning. If you had fresh legs any time before 1-2 weeks before race day, you likely weren't doing it right. 

     

    Not to say you should always have sore legs - that was an advanced program, and the risk of overtraining if not adequately prepared with background was real (70+mpw). Still, I think triathletes who aren't putting up tons of hours per week or serious mileage tend to overestimate the overtraining risk. As long as your gains are still coming and the hard runs are progressing, you are likely not overtraining. 

     

    I do think beginners should avoid this as well - this is more for intermediate - advanced type athletes, but if you can run 6 days a week, you're likely at least approaching this level. Take it carefully, do it on a plan, but if the results are still coming, you can likely trust the plan if it was chosen appropriately.

    2012-02-08 8:55 AM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining
    I think you can only intensely focus on running or cycling at any given time.  You can do both, but only one to the extreme (speed, distance, power, etc.).  After my triathlons were done in 2010 I was still increasing my running distance and speed working up to a 1/2 marathon in November.  I tried to add Jorge's Winter Cycling plan toward the end of October and quickly found that I could not do my long Saturday run following a Friday bike workout.  I tried putting an off day before the long run, but ultimately pushed the start of Jorge's plan until after the 1/2 marathon.  I ended up with a 1/2 marathon PR, which I don't think would have happened if I had kept trying to intensely focus on running and cycling.  After the 1/2 marathon, I focused on Jorge's plan and was able to make great strides with my cycling which led to personal best bike segments on my 2011 triathlons.  YMMV. 
    2012-02-08 8:57 AM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining
    How old are you?
    2012-02-08 9:06 AM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining
    You've gotten outstanding advice. I'll just add, if you really don't want to drop a run day, don't underestimate the value of more recovery paced runs. If you're running all of your runs at or about the same pace, you may not be getting enough recovery and are probably not getting the most out of your harder effort run workouts. Don't be afraid to REALLY drop the pace by a couple of minutes per mile on recovery days. It'll feel like you're just shuffling along if you're doing it right.
    2012-02-08 3:42 PM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining

    Sorry about the logs.  My new smartphone doesn't work with it. This week I'm at 28 miles on the run a 2:30 bike ( 1 h @75% 1 h 80% 30 min 85%) and 2 other 40 min intensity workouts.  I don't build more than 10% on the run however the bike program seems slightly above.  I am not swimming until the end of the month.  I Bike on my 3 short run days.  I workout 6 days a week. If I do both, Because of timing with schedules and kids, I run first then I bike.   I'm 45.  The only reason I'm asking is because My legs are in a constant state of fatigue.  Not pain or injury just constant fatigue (although I feel it every time I go up stairs in my quads.)  When I was training for an Ironman I did 3 longer runs (instead of 6) 3 bikes (with less intensity) and 3 swims.  It may just be my body adjusting to less recovery time.  I fell out of the habit of checking resting HR thank you for reminding me  I'll have to track that again.  My A races are a sprint in June and a 70.3 in August.  I want to decrease my time by 1 min per mile on the run (I have a lot of room to improve) and 2 mph on the bike.

    Thanks for your input everyone



    2012-02-08 4:10 PM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining

    Still want to know what your run distances and pace are.

    Cycling background?  I have a bit of a cycling background and have no problem with leg recovery even after 3hr rides at 75-80% FTP.  But that may be the cycling background.  I'm also running 6 days per week.

    Many of my runs are right after a bike workout in brick style.  Leg fatigue only lasts a mile then I feel good.  Running doesn't require much leg strength. 

    It's good that your runs are before your bike rides on those days.

    Are you losing weight?  If so, then your calories are too low to allow full recovery.  And you need to expect a month or so of acclimation time if this kind of volume is new to you.

     

    2012-02-08 4:23 PM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining

    SIUB

     



    Edited by brown_dog_us 2012-02-08 4:23 PM
    2012-02-08 5:13 PM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining
    I am the opposite right now, but probably because of how my schedule is... My legs always feel tired on the bike, but fresh while running. I feel much more able to push through a bike workout with heavy legs than a run workout. Also, I only run 3 days a week (even PRed a marathon this fall on 3 days), and am getting about 20-25mpw. 3-2-1 is too many runs for me; it just keeps me from recovering enough to put in quality runs, so all runs end up being similar... too hard to be easy and too easy to be hard. Right now I've got one day with a bunch of strides, one day with a 20 minute tempo, and one long run. Once I get closer to spring, I'll replace the strides with intervals.


    Edited by beebs 2012-02-08 5:17 PM
    2012-02-08 7:37 PM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining
    My run distances this week are 9, 3,4.5,3,4.5,3.  Intensity is higher than I have done in the past  My 4.5 mile runs are done in z4, 3's are in high z3.  I have pretty much only done base running in the past with a few pick ups.  All 3 of my bikes have significant intensity.  Now that I look at it 4 out of 9 workouts a week involve most or all of the workout at a high level of intensity. Didn't think of it like that.  Probably focused on doing too much at once and it's coming to get me wife says I'm always moody, tierd all the time and I give in to food cravings all the time.  Probably need to take back the intensity on 1 or 2 per week.
    2012-02-08 8:24 PM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining

    mlanahan - 2012-02-08 8:37 PM My run distances this week are 9, 3,4.5,3,4.5,3.  Intensity is higher than I have done in the past  My 4.5 mile runs are done in z4, 3's are in high z3.  I have pretty much only done base running in the past with a few pick ups.  All 3 of my bikes have significant intensity.  Now that I look at it 4 out of 9 workouts a week involve most or all of the workout at a high level of intensity. Didn't think of it like that.  Probably focused on doing too much at once and it's coming to get me wife says I'm always moody, tierd all the time and I give in to food cravings all the time.  Probably need to take back the intensity on 1 or 2 per week.

    I've been going through some similar adjustments lately, though I don't think I've gotten as fatigued as you're describing. All of the things that I'm doing now are things I've done before, so none of them fazes me individually. But I think that without realizing it I may have been putting them all together at the same time for the first time: more running, hard bike sessions, a teensy amount of swimming right now, and importantly in the middle of an intense part of the work year, when I'm getting less rest/sleep than I'd prefer. I'm running 7 days (~40mpw; w/ one day of speed-ish work), biking 4 days (w/ 2 days of intervals), and swimming 1-2 times. I've been closely watching how much I recover from one day to the next, and sometimes I haven't been ready to tackle the next day's workout. The clearest cases have been a couple of times when I had to bail out early in a bike interval session because there was just no way I was going to make it through. Fortunately, it seems that dialing things back only a little seems to help a lot. Example: last week I had one day when work travel meant that I couldn't train at all. Despite sleeping only 4 hours two nights in a row, the day off from training left me feeling fantastic for my 12-mile run the next day. This week I have dialed back the bike intervals just a little (same pace, about 25% shorter), and slowed down a bit on my slower run days, and I can already feel that I'm recovering better. Legs still feeling sore, but I'm not feeling run down. I think this has just been an exercise in learning to listen more closely to my body.



    2012-02-08 9:25 PM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining

    mlanahan - 2012-02-08 8:37 PM My run distances this week are 9, 3,4.5,3,4.5,3.  Intensity is higher than I have done in the past  My 4.5 mile runs are done in z4, 3's are in high z3.  I have pretty much only done base running in the past with a few pick ups.  All 3 of my bikes have significant intensity.  Now that I look at it 4 out of 9 workouts a week involve most or all of the workout at a high level of intensity. Didn't think of it like that.  Probably focused on doing too much at once and it's coming to get me wife says I'm always moody, tierd all the time and I give in to food cravings all the time.  Probably need to take back the intensity on 1 or 2 per week.

    I think you're doing too much intensity. You can still put in hard work often, but make sure that you keep the volume of the intensity within reasonable limits... e.g. 10-15% of your mileage at tempo, 5-10% for intervals... If you're running 27mpw, that would be about 3-4 miles worth of tempo and 1.5-3 miles of intervals. The rest can be nice and easy as part of warm-up or cool-down. I'm about 20-25 mpw depending on how much trail running I do, and I run 20 minutes at tempo pace (7:52 so about 2.5 miles) once a week and 2 miles worth of repetitions (8x200's at 49s and 4x400's at 1:38)... The rest is zone 2 or below (usually around 9:30). I'm following the advice of Daniels Running Formula, and it is working great. My fast stuff is fast and on fresh legs, and the rest is time on my feet to build endurance. Each workout should be geared for a specific purpose. Your shorter runs at z3 and z4 probably aren't fast enough to specifically target threshold or VO2, but aren't slow enough to give you recovery. I like to avoid workouts like that now, unless I'm training for a marathon. Then I'll do one workout at z3-z4 (marathon pace basically) midweek for 8-12 miles.

    2012-02-09 7:04 AM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining
    mlanahan - 2012-02-08 8:37 PM

    My run distances this week are 9, 3,4.5,3,4.5,3.  Intensity is higher than I have done in the past  My 4.5 mile runs are done in z4, 3's are in high z3.  I have pretty much only done base running in the past with a few pick ups.  All 3 of my bikes have significant intensity.  Now that I look at it 4 out of 9 workouts a week involve most or all of the workout at a high level of intensity. Didn't think of it like that.  Probably focused on doing too much at once and it's coming to get me wife says I'm always moody, tierd all the time and I give in to food cravings all the time.  Probably need to take back the intensity on 1 or 2 per week.


    At least two.

    If it were me, my hard days would be the long run and probably that second mid-length run (the 4.5 mi). I'd run the long run at a steady effort, harder than my easy days, but not so hard I can't finish (this takes practice, so accept the fact that you may not get it right the first few times). I'd run that mid-length run at a moderate effort, higher than the long run, but it's half the distance so you can pull that off.

    All the other runs would be easy.
    2012-02-09 8:58 AM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining

    Yep, that sounds like your answer there.  During a base building phase the volume itself is a stretch for your body to absorb (that's why it adapts!).  Intensity levels must be kept low.

    Do all of those runs in Z2 until March.  By then this level of volume will feel pretty natural and you can slowly add intensity in.

     

    2012-02-09 7:12 PM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining
    mlanahan - 2012-02-08 5:01 AM

    Im doing 3:2:1 running and georges cycling plan (days 1,2,4) and my legs are always tiered.  Even more than when I was training for an IM.  I have been periodzing as normal but they still alwys feel tired.  I have only been doing 6 days of running per week for 2 months now before this it was 3 longer runs.

    My question is how do you tell overtraining from good training and how do you know if you should workout through it or if you need a few days rest?

    Here's the bottom line: you have to listen to your body. 

    If your legs are sore and or tired and your running pace is getting slower, you have low energy, you can't push the same gears or power on the bike, guess what? you need a day or two or maybe a week of recovery. 

    This is why marrying separate plans (not picking on the OP, b/c I see, hear, read about this EVERY day and have for 20+ yrs at this point) is NOT a good idea. Do everything in moderation, but doing too much intensity is not a good thing. 

    This is coming from the person who has written many low volume high intensity programs - I've always built in the easy days and the easy weeks - I've learned from frying myself - recovery is under rated when you want to get faster.  

    Bottom line #2: you only get faster when you rest, not when you keep digging a bigger hole week after week. 

    My $0.02

    2012-02-09 7:26 PM
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    Subject: RE: training on tiered legs or overtaining
    JeffY - 2012-02-09 9:58 AM

    Yep, that sounds like your answer there.  During a base building phase the volume itself is a stretch for your body to absorb (that's why it adapts!).  Intensity levels must be kept low.

    Do all of those runs in Z2 until March.  By then this level of volume will feel pretty natural and you can slowly add intensity in.

     

    THIS



    Edited by bhc 2012-02-09 7:27 PM


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