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2012-02-22 3:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

Your 43:44 10k and 3:24 marathon would put you at a 46 VDOT. To go under 20 min you would need to be a 50 VDOT.

A jump of 4 is not trivial in a short period of time. But not impossible.

That being said, I am your age and was a 48 VDOT this fall and just this weekend went under 20 (19:36) which puts me at a 51. The 3 VDOT jump is entirely attributed to running every day since mid december. I dabble here and there with tempo runs, but I found it is the running every day (even as short as 30 min) that has made the difference. Most weeks are about 50k or so, there was one 70k week and the occasional 60.

For me, running every day is what made the difference.



2012-02-22 4:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

Scout7 - 2012-02-22 3:18 PM What sort of training were you doing in HS/college? Look at that, adapt it to match your current reality, and boom. You should have zero problem getting sub 20 for a 5K. It shouldn't even require much special training.

Hey Scout, was wondering when you'd weigh in. We ran a lot of hills - actually up the side of a mountain, and a lot of track work. I need to be diligent with the track work.

2012-02-22 4:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

First - congrats on turning 50, Brian! And on using that as an excuse to talk about speed work. 

Like others, I have little doubt that you have what it takes to run < 20:00 for 5k, and agree that a baseline test would be a good place to start. How much it will take to get you from there to where you want to be is less clear, as it depends on your current limiters. I wouldn't assume that just because you were a speedster back in the day it'll come over night. Running more will certainly help to give you the aerobic capacity that you need to run 6:20/mile, but you might also need to relearn some of the mechanics of running faster.

At age 44, I've been going through a similar process. I used to be an (undistinguished) middle-distance track runner, so 5k pace used to feel pretty easy. It never felt like the kind of all-out dash that some descriptions here suggest. But more recently I had a good mileage base, but very limited experience of running fast, so a 5k felt more like a dash. I felt like it was hard to go faster as I was simply losing control. In the past couple of months I've started to introduce some speed work into my running, just 1x per week, and it has helped a lot with my ability to maintain control when running faster. Until a couple of months ago I don't think I had run a single mile in 5:40 in many, many years, but this past weekend that was my first mile split in a 10k and it felt really comfortable. I don't think my overall aerobic fitness has changed much in that time, but I think I've managed to relearn a little of the mechanical skill of running faster. Of course, the challenge of doing this is to practice speed while avoiding injury. Rather than doing shorter intervals, I instead have been doing 2 x 1.5 mile intervals, with the notion that the longer intervals would keep my pace lower and reduce the initial injury risk.

Keep us posted on your progress towards this goal.

2012-02-22 4:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

Pick a 5K three to four weeks from now....

Run 30->35 miles a week, running everyday and all at an aerobic pace....nothing harder

Go race...

I guarantee you break 20min's on a relatively flat, fair course.

2012-02-22 4:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
marcag - 2012-02-22 4:54 PM

Your 43:44 10k and 3:24 marathon would put you at a 46 VDOT. To go under 20 min you would need to be a 50 VDOT.

A jump of 4 is not trivial in a short period of time. But not impossible.

That being said, I am your age and was a 48 VDOT this fall and just this weekend went under 20 (19:36) which puts me at a 51. The 3 VDOT jump is entirely attributed to running every day since mid december. I dabble here and there with tempo runs, but I found it is the running every day (even as short as 30 min) that has made the difference. Most weeks are about 50k or so, there was one 70k week and the occasional 60.

For me, running every day is what made the difference.

I had no idea what VDOT is, so I googled it. I compared  that to the McMillan calculator and they are slightly different. In general I have found that the McMillan calculator to be very accurate as long as you have the conditioning it assumes you need to have. So, using my marathon, it says I should run a 20:56 5k and a 43:28 10k. That's pretty good. That 10k time I gave was from a Mother's Day charity race last year one week after the NJ Marathon. I ran with my kids and could easily have run harder.

So maybe I should be optimistic after all. I'm doing a 5k in March as a baseline, and then I'll find another one 8 weeks later and see what happens.

2012-02-22 4:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
colinphillips - 2012-02-22 5:29 PM

First - congrats on turning 50, Brian! And on using that as an excuse to talk about speed work. 

Like others, I have little doubt that you have what it takes to run < 20:00 for 5k, and agree that a baseline test would be a good place to start. How much it will take to get you from there to where you want to be is less clear, as it depends on your current limiters. I wouldn't assume that just because you were a speedster back in the day it'll come over night. Running more will certainly help to give you the aerobic capacity that you need to run 6:20/mile, but you might also need to relearn some of the mechanics of running faster.

At age 44, I've been going through a similar process. I used to be an (undistinguished) middle-distance track runner, so 5k pace used to feel pretty easy. It never felt like the kind of all-out dash that some descriptions here suggest. But more recently I had a good mileage base, but very limited experience of running fast, so a 5k felt more like a dash. I felt like it was hard to go faster as I was simply losing control. In the past couple of months I've started to introduce some speed work into my running, just 1x per week, and it has helped a lot with my ability to maintain control when running faster. Until a couple of months ago I don't think I had run a single mile in 5:40 in many, many years, but this past weekend that was my first mile split in a 10k and it felt really comfortable. I don't think my overall aerobic fitness has changed much in that time, but I think I've managed to relearn a little of the mechanical skill of running faster. Of course, the challenge of doing this is to practice speed while avoiding injury. Rather than doing shorter intervals, I instead have been doing 2 x 1.5 mile intervals, with the notion that the longer intervals would keep my pace lower and reduce the initial injury risk.

Keep us posted on your progress towards this goal.

Hey, new AG, maybe I will be more competitive in this one.

So how amazingly good did that 5:40 feel? I might just run 5k by myself this coming week and get an idea of where I'm at and what I need to do.

I will keep you posted. Thanks!



2012-02-22 6:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-02-22 4:45 PM

I had no idea what VDOT is, so I googled it. I compared  that to the McMillan calculator and they are slightly different. In general I have found that the McMillan calculator to be very accurate as long as you have the conditioning it assumes you need to have. So, using my marathon, it says I should run a 20:56 5k and a 43:28 10k. That's pretty good. That 10k time I gave was from a Mother's Day charity race last year one week after the NJ Marathon. I ran with my kids and could easily have run harder.

So maybe I should be optimistic after all. I'm doing a 5k in March as a baseline, and then I'll find another one 8 weeks later and see what happens.

 

Sorry about that. I should not have assumed VDOT was a universally known thing. But The Jack Daniel's and McMillan estimates are pretty accurate in my experience.

Now that being said, you could have an amazing day, all stars align and you make it. It's not out of touch.

Like I said, to me, the biggest improvement came with increase of frequency. Previously I was always doing the 1 tempo run, 1 long run, and 2 'easier runs per week for 2 years with no improvement. It's when I went to running every day that things got better. And it all came together in 8 weeks although I did see improvement after 6.

Lots of opinions, but I'd bet you would get more out of adding 2 30min easy runs a week.

The beauty of 5k races is you can do them frequently without screwing up your training plan and almost use them as a fast workout. You can be a bit stiff the next day but it doesn't take much recovery.

2012-02-22 6:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
I'd say you're pretty close now.  When I PR'd my last 5K (not flat) I ran 21:08.  About that time my HM pace was around 7:50.  Had that 5K was on a flat course it would have been mid 20's if not lower.  I'm 45.  So if your full Mary pace is faster than my Half Mary pace when I ran that low 21 5K, I've gotta believe you are close to going sub 20.  Run some short stuff, teach you body that higher intensity stuff, do quarter/half mile intervals etc.  Should be doable in the near future.
2012-02-22 6:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
methinks you are already there. just suffer.
2012-02-22 6:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
marcag - 2012-02-22 7:39 PM
BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-02-22 4:45 PM

I had no idea what VDOT is, so I googled it. I compared  that to the McMillan calculator and they are slightly different. In general I have found that the McMillan calculator to be very accurate as long as you have the conditioning it assumes you need to have. So, using my marathon, it says I should run a 20:56 5k and a 43:28 10k. That's pretty good. That 10k time I gave was from a Mother's Day charity race last year one week after the NJ Marathon. I ran with my kids and could easily have run harder.

So maybe I should be optimistic after all. I'm doing a 5k in March as a baseline, and then I'll find another one 8 weeks later and see what happens.

 

Sorry about that. I should not have assumed VDOT was a universally known thing. But The Jack Daniel's and McMillan estimates are pretty accurate in my experience.

Now that being said, you could have an amazing day, all stars align and you make it. It's not out of touch.

Like I said, to me, the biggest improvement came with increase of frequency. Previously I was always doing the 1 tempo run, 1 long run, and 2 'easier runs per week for 2 years with no improvement. It's when I went to running every day that things got better. And it all came together in 8 weeks although I did see improvement after 6.

Lots of opinions, but I'd bet you would get more out of adding 2 30min easy runs a week.

The beauty of 5k races is you can do them frequently without screwing up your training plan and almost use them as a fast workout. You can be a bit stiff the next day but it doesn't take much recovery.

This is so antithetical to marathon training I don't know what to say. I don't even feel warmed up until half an hour into a run. And unlike you I did see improvement, it was just on the marathon pace.

I think the only reality I need to face is getting out there and doing some 5k's. In my experience there are a few ways to get to the same endpoint, but there are no shortcuts. And I already know you only get faster by training faster. What does Scout say, run a lot, mostly easy, sometimes hard. I've been running long enough to know truer words have never been said, but the devil is in the details (2 metaphors in 1 sentence!). So instead of the 'hard' being increasing tempo runs, I will increase interval length and decrease interval time. For marathons it's been about doing the same, but on tempo runs.

2012-02-22 7:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

Hey Brian,

You're wasting precious time posting here in BT!

Hurry up and run that sub 20  5K before you get too old! Tongue out



2012-02-22 7:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

Running

1) more often,

2) more miles,

3) faster per mile

will all make improvements as long as you do it in a way not to injure yourself

#1 in my opinion has the most bang for the buck.

At 4x per week I think you are limiting yourself even if you improve #2 and #3.

But that's ok we're in the same AG so I don't want you improving in any races we may cross paths :-)

2012-02-22 7:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

Really pleased this thread has appeared.  Sub 20 is my early season goal too (ran 20:26 a couple of weeks ago in my first ever standalone 5k but without any speed work this season).  It hurt.  A lot.   I'm going into the pain cave again later in March after a few weeks of one track workout per week. 

Just to say thanks for the advice everyone and good luck Brian !

Adrian

2012-02-22 8:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
reecealan - 2012-02-22 8:10 PM

Hey Brian,

You're wasting precious time posting here in BT!

Hurry up and run that sub 20  5K before you get too old! Tongue out

Now that's motivation!

2012-02-23 7:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
Let me know if you find the secret! I still haven't done it. (Of course, I don't think I've actually run a stand-alone 5K in several years, but still, I'm not sure I could do it.)  I ran 20:53 last year in a sprint tri, and 20:46 Sunday after a 750m swim and it felt hard (suspect course of being long, but no way to know). I just don't feel like my body knows what to do anymore. I can run slow forever, but OMG how can I be that slow? My PB was 17:03. Still the same weight, give or take 2 pounds. Where does speed go?
2012-02-23 7:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

OK, next race in the area is the "Get Your Rear in Gear" for colon cancer. It's a 5k and 10k. The course is about 3 blocks from my house (MLK Drive), so I have run this at least 1000 times. It's totally flat and fast. That will be my baseline.

I was planning to do the 10k with the family, they are going to be very confused.



2012-02-23 7:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
I got to sub 20 by:

1) Running a lot of miles (training for a marathon).
2) Cherry-picking a fast course.

I didn't do intervals, because I don't really enjoy them. I tend towards harder effort runs (tempo & progression), but that's about it.

I can recommend some 5Ks in the near future if you're interested.
2012-02-23 7:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-02-23 7:20 AM

OK, next race in the area is the "Get Your Rear in Gear" for colon cancer. It's a 5k and 10k. The course is about 3 blocks from my house (MLK Drive), so I have run this at least 1000 times. It's totally flat and fast. That will be my baseline.

I was planning to do the 10k with the family, they are going to be very confused.

So just break 40 here instead!

2012-02-23 7:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-02-23 9:20 AM

OK, next race in the area is the "Get Your Rear in Gear" for colon cancer. It's a 5k and 10k. The course is about 3 blocks from my house (MLK Drive), so I have run this at least 1000 times. It's totally flat and fast. That will be my baseline.

I was planning to do the 10k with the family, they are going to be very confused.

This calls for a "Predict my time" thread!

2012-02-23 7:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

Scout7 - 2012-02-23 8:25 AM I got to sub 20 by: 1) Running a lot of miles (training for a marathon). 2) Cherry-picking a fast course. I didn't do intervals, because I don't really enjoy them. I tend towards harder effort runs (tempo & progression), but that's about it. I can recommend some 5Ks in the near future if you're interested.

You and I are pretty similar when it comes to running. My favorite run is a tempo run. I also do a lot of progression, especially on the treadmill when I can't get outside, or when running with friends. It usually winds up being a game of 'who's going to say something first'. Running on a track is probably the only thing I don't like about running.

I like long runs and planning a route, not running in circles. I run because I like being outdoors and enjoying the scenery. I like hearing my breath and feeling my heart beat. I have never run outdoors with an iPod, it would ruin the experience for me.  That's also why I haven't run many 5k's, it's too intense to be able to enjoy the run, and it's over too fast.

I'm 3 blocks from the Art Museum, and this is the prime event location in Philly. I was looking on the calendar and there is a 5 or 10k almost every weekend from March through November. It is totally flat and wide as they close the West River (MLK) Drive on the weekend April-September. They also do bike time trials every Saturday at 7am, but that is a different discussion. I got goals for that too

2012-02-23 8:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
I love a good track workout. I think it comes from running in college (not varsity) where we'd have a group run on the track every week. Such fond memories of the camaraderie. I've seen a few similar groups forming in my adult life, but I haven't connected with any of them yet. I've got one training partner that I run all of my progression or tempo stuff with. Currently, all my track work is usually done before 6am ... often with a headlamp. I still love it, but it misses some of what I recall with fondness.


2012-02-23 8:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
brigby1 - 2012-02-23 8:32 AM
BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-02-23 7:20 AM

OK, next race in the area is the "Get Your Rear in Gear" for colon cancer. It's a 5k and 10k. The course is about 3 blocks from my house (MLK Drive), so I have run this at least 1000 times. It's totally flat and fast. That will be my baseline.

I was planning to do the 10k with the family, they are going to be very confused.

So just break 40 here instead!

I actually think that would be easier. No logic to that, except it's not a 5k

I need to accomplish one thing this this year at the 10k distance. When I ran the 43:44 last year I was running on the boardwalk in AC. The kids wanted to go there and do this charity thing and spend the day at the shore. It was 6 days after my marathon, so I figured on it being a recovery run. At the 5 mile marker my son, who had done the 5k and is on the sidelines, yells that there are not too many 'old people' in front of me. So I put the hammer down only to miss 3rd by 4 seconds. The kids were relentless about that all day.

2012-02-23 8:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
definitely practice pacing for it, I used to do a run race series that included 4k to 18k when I was in Germany a couple years ago. It's really different. My advice would be run a 5k at your marathon pace, then run the 3 miles progressively faster till you end near what you consider your 5k race pace. If you feel comfortable with this pace do the same thing the next run workout only do the last 2k at full race pace and see if you can sustain it. I think that will give you a good idea what you can do right now. a 5k is a head game too, you have to go out strong but not full throttle and not get lazy in the middle and finish strong. Ladders and pyramids at your local track will help a lot with your speed as will elliptical work to get your cadence up. I just turned 40 and have a 5:30 mile. My Boot Camp coach is convinced she can get me down to ~4:59 in a month, so yes you have 10 years on me but looking at your accomplishments you have the engine to meet your goal. Good luck!
2012-02-23 8:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-02-23 8:05 AM

brigby1 - 2012-02-23 8:32 AM
BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-02-23 7:20 AM

OK, next race in the area is the "Get Your Rear in Gear" for colon cancer. It's a 5k and 10k. The course is about 3 blocks from my house (MLK Drive), so I have run this at least 1000 times. It's totally flat and fast. That will be my baseline.

I was planning to do the 10k with the family, they are going to be very confused.

So just break 40 here instead!

I actually think that would be easier....



For me at least, going sub-40 for a 10k was significantly harder than going sub-20 for a 5k. At least the 5k is over quickly. The last 2 miles of that 10k was the farthest I've ever gone into the "pain cave".
2012-02-23 9:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

Let me ask this of the really fast 5Ker's.  What does it feel like?  Burning dead legs?  Burning shoulders.  Actual vomit in the mouth while you run?

I tried to go there in my 2011 season finale, but I backed off in the last mile.  I think I just quit.

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