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2012-02-22 11:17 AM

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Subject: Running a sub-20 5k

OK, turning 50 this week and I'm thinking this is a good stretch goal. I don't usually run 5k's, but I ran 22:04 two years ago at the beginning of the season without my normal marathon training mileage. I did run a 43:44 10k standalone 10k last year (a week after a marathon) and my marathon pace is 7:38-7:44.

So, first question. Is this a reasonable goal? I'm just not used to short distance races and pacing. Second, is there anything specific to training for shorter/faster distance running? I'm a pretty experienced runner at longer distances.

My logs aren't up to date, sorry. I'm at around 30mpw now, 4 days a week. I'll be adding another day in March as I move from base to HIM training. Base training consists of two runs of 6 miles at ~8:15 (or slower), 5 miles at 7:45, 8.5 miles at 8:45. That 5th day will be intervals.



2012-02-22 11:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

Go run one this weekend.  You might surprise yourself.

That's my way of saying that, while challenging, it doesn't sound like too much of a strech at all.

Training isn't much different.  Run lots.  Mostly easy, sometimes hard.  Your 'hard' might be a little shorter and a little harder than when you are training for a marathon is all.

2012-02-22 11:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

There is only one way to find out.  Do it.

One thing is certain, it will be easier now than next year.

2012-02-22 11:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
Are you doing any tempo runs?  For a 5k I will do 1 tempo run a week that consists of 10 min or so warm up followed by 10-15 minutes run 5-10 seconds slower than race pace, then a cool down.  All the rest of the miles during the week are easy breezy.  I might add in some specific hill work, but because I live in VT most of my runs are hill work.  
2012-02-22 11:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
You can probably run that now or very close...

2012-02-22 11:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
go out and run 1 stand alone 6:50 or even 7 and see how you feel.  5Ks are all about suffering but they are short. 


2012-02-22 11:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
JohnnyKay - 2012-02-22 12:24 PM

Go run one this weekend.  You might surprise yourself.

That's my way of saying that, while challenging, it doesn't sound like too much of a strech at all.

Training isn't much different.  Run lots.  Mostly easy, sometimes hard.  Your 'hard' might be a little shorter and a little harder than when you are training for a marathon is all.

You may be right,  I should go do a baseline. I find 5k pacing impossible, but maybe I just need the race experience. I know exactly how to pace a long training run, HM, and marathon. Last year I ran 3 fulls and a half, so nothing short as a standalone. This year I'm only doing one full and focusing on triathlons. My HIM isn't until September so sprints and Oly's leading up to that, which is why I'm thinking about 5k speed.

2012-02-22 11:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
If I run 800s for my speed work once a week, I can usually see the gains within about 3 weeks. Usually a 2 mile warm up, 6-10 800 @ perceived 5k pace with 400m active recovery, 2 mile cool down. If I'm holding in the 3:00 neighborhood for the 800s, I can be in the low 19s for a local 5k (moderate hilly). YMMV, but I think track work once per week that has you feeling like hurling at the end will get you there pretty quickly.

Truly racing the 5k should suck the entire time. Start fast, push that second mile, and then speed up for the finish. I absolutely hate how I feel at the start of a 5k, because I know what I'm about to do to myself.

That'll get you there. 
2012-02-22 11:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

You have the fitness, you need to learn the "speed" and then suffer the pain.  Go to a track and do some repeat 800s to learn the pacing.  Do a day of intervals a week to get that speed dialed in.  You can do it.

2012-02-22 11:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

FINALLY SOMETHING I KNOW ABOUT!!

You're really close to a sub 20 5K right now!  In my high school prime, I ran 17:3X for 80% of my races. 

Here's the best way to get your 5K time down: Intervals.

5K is a track and field race, not a distance race.  You don't need much base to run a fast 5k, you need to work on specialized speed. 

My favorite is Mile repeats.  1 mile intervals with 1-2 minutes rest.  Run each interval AT Race Pace or RP-10 s.  Each workout should be 3-4 intervals, with good warm up and cool down of course.  In high school we did these once a week, and it worked wonders. 

Why it works: You get your pace ingrained in your legs, and you slowly work up your endurance at RP.  The first workout will be hell, like most track workouts, but over time shorten your rest to 1 minute.  If you can complete all 4, 1 mile intervals all at RP with 1 minute rest, then you've got it in the bag.

2012-02-22 11:44 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

BernardDogs - 2012-02-22 12:38 PM Truly racing the 5k should suck the entire time. Start fast, push that second mile, and then speed up for the finish. I absolutely hate how I feel at the start of a 5k, because I know what I'm about to do to myself.

That'll get you there. 

That's why I love 5k's!



2012-02-22 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
GatorRunner - 2012-02-22 12:42 PM

FINALLY SOMETHING I KNOW ABOUT!!

You're really close to a sub 20 5K right now!  In my high school prime, I ran 17:3X for 80% of my races. 

Here's the best way to get your 5K time down: Intervals.

5K is a track and field race, not a distance race.  You don't need much base to run a fast 5k, you need to work on specialized speed. 

My favorite is Mile repeats.  1 mile intervals with 1-2 minutes rest.  Run each interval AT Race Pace or RP-10 s.  Each workout should be 3-4 intervals, with good warm up and cool down of course.  In high school we did these once a week, and it worked wonders. 

Why it works: You get your pace ingrained in your legs, and you slowly work up your endurance at RP.  The first workout will be hell, like most track workouts, but over time shorten your rest to 1 minute.  If you can complete all 4, 1 mile intervals all at RP with 1 minute rest, then you've got it in the bag.

 

100% agree. This will get you there. (of course you may already be there and just don't know it. just need to learn to pace).



Edited by ctbrian 2012-02-22 11:58 AM
2012-02-22 11:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
GatorRunner - 2012-02-22 11:42 AM

FINALLY SOMETHING I KNOW ABOUT!!

You're really close to a sub 20 5K right now!  In my high school prime, I ran 17:3X for 80% of my races. 

Here's the best way to get your 5K time down: Intervals.

5K is a track and field race, not a distance race.  You don't need much base to run a fast 5k, you need to work on specialized speed. 

My favorite is Mile repeats.  1 mile intervals with 1-2 minutes rest.  Run each interval AT Race Pace or RP-10 s.  Each workout should be 3-4 intervals, with good warm up and cool down of course.  In high school we did these once a week, and it worked wonders. 

Why it works: You get your pace ingrained in your legs, and you slowly work up your endurance at RP.  The first workout will be hell, like most track workouts, but over time shorten your rest to 1 minute.  If you can complete all 4, 1 mile intervals all at RP with 1 minute rest, then you've got it in the bag.

Well said.

 

2012-02-22 12:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

BernardDogs - 2012-02-22 11:38 AM If I run 800s for my speed work once a week, I can usually see the gains within about 3 weeks. Usually a 2 mile warm up, 6-10 800 @ perceived 5k pace with 400m active recovery, 2 mile cool down. If I'm holding in the 3:00 neighborhood for the 800s, I can be in the low 19s for a local 5k (moderate hilly). YMMV, but I think track work once per week that has you feeling like hurling at the end will get you there pretty quickly.

Truly racing the 5k should suck the entire time. Start fast, push that second mile, and then speed up for the finish. I absolutely hate how I feel at the start of a 5k, because I know what I'm about to do to myself.

That'll get you there. 

^^^ This got me there.  I did 4 weeks of 800m repeats and it got me a 18:52 on a rolling 5K.  That was my second 5K (the same as the 1st) and I'm not too keen on doing it again...  Once a year is enough for me.

2012-02-22 12:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
GatorRunner - 2012-02-22 12:42 PM

FINALLY SOMETHING I KNOW ABOUT!!

You're really close to a sub 20 5K right now!  In my high school prime, I ran 17:3X for 80% of my races. 

Here's the best way to get your 5K time down: Intervals.

5K is a track and field race, not a distance race.  You don't need much base to run a fast 5k, you need to work on specialized speed. 

My favorite is Mile repeats.  1 mile intervals with 1-2 minutes rest.  Run each interval AT Race Pace or RP-10 s.  Each workout should be 3-4 intervals, with good warm up and cool down of course.  In high school we did these once a week, and it worked wonders. 

Why it works: You get your pace ingrained in your legs, and you slowly work up your endurance at RP.  The first workout will be hell, like most track workouts, but over time shorten your rest to 1 minute.  If you can complete all 4, 1 mile intervals all at RP with 1 minute rest, then you've got it in the bag.

Aw snap, let's not go there. Didn't you see my thing about turning 50 this week? This is still my prime!!! Just for different activities, that's all. And in college I was low 30's for 10k.

What I find is that there is a big difficulty going  from running say 10-14 miles at 7:30 to 3 miles sub-7. I was looking at my logs from last year and I have a bunch of training runs of that distance in the 7:15-7:35 pace range. It should be doable - I have the stamina. It's that extra speed and pacing that I struggle with.

So I will do my weekly intervals as my 5th run day starting this coming week. I need to adjust my schedule so it fits with everything else. Probably I should start with 400m repeats and work my way up. I usually do 8 x 800 for marathon training, should I do a larger number if they are shorter and then just work my way up? Total of 4 miles of repeats at whatever distance they are?



Edited by BrianRunsPhilly 2012-02-22 12:05 PM
2012-02-22 1:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

For us non-talented folks out there, I always tell anyone that is close to breaking 20 that the key is pain management.  You have to be willing to suffer for 19:xx.   I am totally wiped out after a 5k.  I am neither talented nor built for 5k racing but I am willing to push myself to its limit (at least for shorter races).

Work on 1/2 mile repeats at 6:00-6:15 min pace to help build up your LT.  Start with 4 x 800 on 1:30 rest and add 1 a week until you hit 8 x 800. 

That said, I still say it is 80% mental when you get in 20-21 minute range.  Most of those folks stuck there have the split the first mile and then drag off.  You have to push push push.  Go out fast and hang on!  If a volunteer doesn't ask if your OK at the end or you don't fell like puking, you left some out there!  Like others have said, I really only race a 5k once a year due to it hurting like a MF!

Good luck!



Edited by bgraboski 2012-02-22 1:04 PM


2012-02-22 1:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

OK, I am going to disagree somewhat with some others.

5k is NOT very different from running other distances.  It is an endurance race.  Clearly, having the pacing dialed in will help you perform better.  But this is just a little harder than threshold running.  Running a 5k to your potential IS about base.  It does not require extensive 'specialized speed'.  The fact is that you likely need very few intervals to hit your current goal.    That said, some running at/around GP makes sense to help you with the pacing aspects.  There about a million different ways to slice & dice those intervals, but I'd probably keep most of them longer rather than shorter.  The 3-4x mile repeats does not sound bad, but that should replace your tempo run for the week if you decide to do them.  If you are not running one of those now, start there first.  Of course, rather than any of the intervals, you could just enter a 5k every few weeks (I know there are plenty in your area) and learn to race there.

2012-02-22 1:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
JohnnyKay - 2012-02-22 1:07 PM

OK, I am going to disagree somewhat with some others...



Agreed, I got there at age 41 with just a tempo run once a week and increasing overall mileage. Enter a 5k race and find out where you are now.
2012-02-22 1:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

Great job and times. 

 

ALthough I do find it humorous that you of all people, are asking US for advice when you were throwing down low 30s 10ks in your younger days. THat's like crazy fast.

 

Why do you think you slowed down as much as you have? Even with age-adjustment slowdowns, it seems that with that sort of ability in your younger days, you should be sub40 with decent training pretty readily. Age 50 gives a slowdown penalty but not a huge one at amateur levels.

2012-02-22 1:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
agarose2000 - 2012-02-22 2:25 PM

Great job and times. 

 

ALthough I do find it humorous that you of all people, are asking US for advice when you were throwing down low 30s 10ks in your younger days. THat's like crazy fast.

 

Why do you think you slowed down as much as you have? Even with age-adjustment slowdowns, it seems that with that sort of ability in your younger days, you should be sub40 with decent training pretty readily. Age 50 gives a slowdown penalty but not a huge one at amateur levels.

My immediate response would have been quite profane, but it IS a valid question  

I am not a 20 year old college student. I am not running 70+mpw with other fast people and a coach. My life no longer revolves around running. I no longer weigh 122 lbs. That's some of it for sure. You could also say I've only slowed down 4 seconds a year, which doesn't sound so bad.

And I disagree about that age slowdown. You may be closer to the truth had I continued to focus on 5k and 10k distances, but as I got older I found I like running longer races. I do know I can train hard - I shaved 10 minutes off my marathon time this year when they changed the BQ rules. Maybe if I do train to run shorter and faster I'll surprise myself.

 

2012-02-22 2:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

If you ran low 30's for 10k at one point in your life barring some sort of medical condition or being a couch potato for the last 30 years (which it doesn't appear you have been) there is absolutely no reason at all you can't run under 20 for 5k. Heck you should be shooting for under 19 with that aerobic engine!



2012-02-22 2:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
You've got to be close right now. Like the idea of just going out and doing some. It sounds like you might not be used to the pacing or effort needed at this point. You'll have to push hard, but you should be able to get it in one of these attempts.
2012-02-22 2:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
What sort of training were you doing in HS/college?

Look at that, adapt it to match your current reality, and boom.

You should have zero problem getting sub 20 for a 5K. It shouldn't even require much special training.
2012-02-22 2:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

I am going to agree with JohnnyKay on this one. You are most probably pretty close to doing it right now. You do not need to be doing 5k specific workouts  to run that time especially with your background even if it was 20 odd years ago. I just did it after a 7 month hiatus and then only doing easy running since the middle of November (starting back at 13mpw) until race day at beginning of Feb. The fastest single mile I did in that time was 1:20 slower than my pace on race day.

Find a 5k and let it rip. like Johnny said, you might just suprise yourself.

2012-02-22 3:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

I'm with some of the others, if you ran low 30's for 10K earlier in your life and have kept running mileage up over the years (which by following some of your posts I can see you have) there is no reason you wouldn't be sub 20:00. I'm 46 so I know the aging process, but with that background and the current running you do you are capable of a fast 5K. You just need to get signed up for a race and let yourself go. All that mileage will allow you to go fast just trust it!

 

Let us know how you do.

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