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2012-04-18 7:50 AM
in reply to: #4156954

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: training in z2

I don't know why (other than that I'm on a linkfest lately) this seems appropriate, but it's a good thread to see what kind of results steady consistent training gets you.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=435760&posts=5#M4157614

That, and my LAST POST on the first page of this thread has succumbed to 20th post syndrome ... oh, Cry



2012-04-18 7:57 AM
in reply to: #4157606

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Subject: RE: training in z2

"If you have a race this weekend, why not wear your HRM?"

I have a chest strap with my HRM and it's not supposed to be "submerged in water." Will it stay protected under my tri suit under a wet suit?



Edited by bwoods0410 2012-04-18 7:59 AM
2012-04-18 8:11 AM
in reply to: #4157643

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Subject: RE: training in z2
bwoods0410 - 2012-04-18 8:57 AM

"If you have a race this weekend, why not wear your HRM?"

I have a chest strap with my HRM and it's not supposed to be "submerged in water." Will it stay protected under my tri suit under a wet suit?

No, it wont stay protected. A swimmers wetsuit lets a layer of water in that your body heat can make toasty warm. My chest strap seems to survive the submersion.
2012-04-18 8:27 AM
in reply to: #4156954

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Subject: RE: training in z2

As Yanti pointed out, MaxHR is a useless and outdated metric to base any kind of endurance zones on.  First off, you can never reach your MaxHR because if you ever did, you'd die.  And also, how is a peak value going to tell you what you can hold in a steady state effort?

Same thing goes for 220-age, etc.  Outdated and just plain wrong!

The easy way to get your LTHR is to sign up for a 5k run race.  Warm-up well and then go race it.  Take the best 20' average an BAM...there is a great starting point for your LTHR number.  Base your zones on that. 

The rule of thumb for the bike is 10-12 bpm lower than your run. 

Happy Training!

2012-04-18 12:37 PM
in reply to: #4156954

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Subject: RE: training in z2
bwoods0410 - 2012-04-17 6:53 PM

Back story: I did my very first sprint at the end of last summer. This year I have scheduled myself for five, very exciting. So I've been reading the very motivating "Iron Fit" and came to the chapter on training plans. Now granted these plans for IM races, but I loved how Fink took all of the guess work out of it. It says exactly when and where you should be each day (times and heart rates) which is something I would not trust myself to plan personally. I noticed at week 18, of a 30 week IM plan he had scheduled an Oly distance. So I thought to myself well this is great! I will just do the first 18 weeks, and I promptly changed my August sprint to the oly distance, 1 mile swim, 34 bike, and 10 run.

Present Day: Yesterday I bought myself an HRM and this morning I am so incredibly excited to get out and begin my very first day of my training plan. It all went great and according to plan but my run is set for z2, as are most of the runs set over the next 18 weeks. In order for me to stay at this BPM I switched between speed walking and jogging for the first ten minutes and finally settled into the slowest...jog...ever for the rest. I am beginning to wonder if this is not the best idea for me and I should find a plan that is scheduled specifically for an Oly. 

In his book Fink specifically addresses how many athletes struggle to stay at this pace because they feel it is not a work out, but he explains how it is so important because you need to be dong aerobic work and not anaerobic. I look at those numbers for my August race and for me, the swim and run is very long so if there is truth to his theory stick this out? I'm just so scared that I am going to lose all of my speed if I continue at this rate.

I don't know, what do the rest of you say?



Didn't read all the responses. I'm certain I'll repeat what others have said... but here it goes.

1) Get your HR zones tested. You can have someone do it or you can do a field test. 220-your age is BS and it is not accurate.
2) Zone 2 training works. Although most athletes aren't patient enough to get to the point where it does any good for them.

To elaborate on #2.

Zone 2 work means you go SLOW. For some, it even means walking on the run. Which most can't handle. So they do it for maybe a couple of weeks and go back to what they have always done (probably running in tempo zone 100% of the time).

Base building takes time. And for each person it is different. And it takes consistency with training.

I know for me, over the past year I have gone from running a 10-11 mm pace in zone 2, to running it in zone 1. So same pace, less effort. This is great if you want to do endurance events.

The idea behind zone 2 work is that you teach your body to use less energy to do the same work. But you have to be patient and do the slow work to see the results. Most aren't willing to do it. And I say that because all of the coaches in our club fight the same battle with every athlete... "Slow down and run/bike in zone 2"... "But it's SO SLOW, I can't go that slow, I'm not doing anything!". Yep.



2012-04-18 12:41 PM
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Subject: RE: training in z2
bwoods0410 - 2012-04-18 6:45 AM

Honestly, I am big ol' wuss and I'm pretty nervous to go through a true field test. I'm training for a long distance bike ride completely separate from my triathlons so this morning I have scheduled a ride up one of the largest mountains in the area. If I truly exert myself as hard as a feel safe doing, do you think it would a fair assessment to call that 95% and do some math from that point? 

A website I read suggested something like this if you were too afraid to go to 100%. It just all seems to boil down to our different perceptions. I'm one of those black and white people, I don't like all of this guess work and grey areas!

Another question- I need to do separate tests for running and cycling right?



Find a place that can test you.

You can either do one with a face mask on, or one where they take your blood every 5 minutes to determine lactate. I have done testing and have watched a few people get tested and it's not that taxing on the body. It's a challenge, but it doesn't last THAT long.



2012-04-18 12:55 PM
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Subject: RE: training in z2

I thought this was interesting (and relevant to this thread) - I did a run today in my Z2 and ended up with a pace of 9:37/mi and an average HR of 157. My first Z2 run was a mixture of running and walking in January and I was doing 11:20/mi and my HR was still in the 160s.

Don't give up on it, the gains will come.

2012-04-18 2:31 PM
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Subject: RE: training in z2
Marvarnett - 2012-04-18 8:27 AM

As Yanti pointed out, MaxHR is a useless and outdated metric to base any kind of endurance zones on.  First off, you can never reach your MaxHR because if you ever did, you'd die.  And also, how is a peak value going to tell you what you can hold in a steady state effort?

Same thing goes for 220-age, etc.  Outdated and just plain wrong!

The easy way to get your LTHR is to sign up for a 5k run race.  Warm-up well and then go race it.  Take the best 20' average an BAM...there is a great starting point for your LTHR number.  Base your zones on that. 

The rule of thumb for the bike is 10-12 bpm lower than your run. 

Happy Training!

That seems simple enough. So are you saying take your average HR over 20 minutes?
2012-04-18 2:43 PM
in reply to: #4158806

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: training in z2
jmug23 - 2012-04-19 3:31 AM
Marvarnett - 2012-04-18 8:27 AM

As Yanti pointed out, MaxHR is a useless and outdated metric to base any kind of endurance zones on.  First off, you can never reach your MaxHR because if you ever did, you'd die.  And also, how is a peak value going to tell you what you can hold in a steady state effort?

Same thing goes for 220-age, etc.  Outdated and just plain wrong!

The easy way to get your LTHR is to sign up for a 5k run race.  Warm-up well and then go race it.  Take the best 20' average an BAM...there is a great starting point for your LTHR number.  Base your zones on that. 

The rule of thumb for the bike is 10-12 bpm lower than your run. 

Happy Training!

That seems simple enough. So are you saying take your average HR over 20 minutes?

Yes, and if your 5K is longer than 20min, make that the last 20min. Also helps if the 5K is fairly flat and straight, or at least, a lot like the terrain you'll be training on.

2012-04-18 7:48 PM
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Subject: RE: training in z2
Don't over think it and go into analysis paralysis. Stick to the plan in the book and you will find that it works. Many people have done very well using the Fink plans. You don't have to be on the exact precise scientific bleeding edge to experience good improvements in fitness. How's that saying go again? "JFR"
2012-04-18 8:26 PM
in reply to: #4156954


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Subject: RE: training in z2

I've love 'low-zone' training a la marathon style. 

 

The only catch - you do have to put up enough volume to make it work. If you're on a time/volume crunched schedule, where you can't do longer than 45-60 min workouts, you'll plateau quite quickly on a regiment of mostly Z2 work. 

 

The Z2 lower intensity work allows you to really expand your training volume, which yields gains far excess of what you can do with sheer intesity alone. I found this out when training for a marathon and was shocked at how fast I could run a 5k after doing lots and lots of 9 minute miles in training. 

 

Still, don't underestimate the volume component You don't get anything for free in life and tri. There's no magic bullet to getting faster without working hard at some point, be it through volume or speed, or both.



2012-04-19 11:08 AM
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Subject: RE: training in z2
I thought I had responded to this yesterday but apparently I failed to submit my response.

First, with respect to testing, as others have mentioned, if you are going to use HR to guide your training, your best bet is to do a lactate threshold HR test (LTHR). IME there is rarely a good reason for an age group athlete to be tested in a lab and will get similar results from conducting a field test and since the field test is free, is more likely to test on a regular basis. Since a LTHR test is not only good to measure fitness, it is also great training that helps an athlete learn proper pacing. Further, unless one is going to be tested in an exercise physiology lab, the equipment being used is likely neither accurate nor precise which means that the time and money invested in "lab" testing would be better spent in many other areas.

To the z2 training; generally for triathletes this intensity should comprise most of their run training and little of their bike and swim training. For someone who is completely new to the sport, then just getting out and logging time in z2 will be appropriate across all the sports, once someone has some experience with endurance training, training time for swimming and cycling should likely include more time at higher intensity.

The reason swimming and cycling are different is that they are not load bearing and therefore there is very little muscle damage as eccentric contractions are basically eliminated. While it is possible to get very fit by doing low intensity swim and bike workouts, an athlete would need to do a lot of swimming and biking. Very few triathletes will ever approach this volume and as such, are better served by manipulating the intensity portion of their training load equation as they top out on the amount of volume they can do. In general I would suggest that a triathlete spends much of their swim training focused on swimming around T pace and much of the cycling around FTP (z4).

Running, since it involves lots of eccentric contraction, should revolve around the mantra of "run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard." For triathletes, I would suggest they should aim to run at least 4x/week (more is generally better) with all but one session being easy. One of these should be a long run of ~25-30% of weekly volume and, assuming the athlete has some background with running, one should involve some time (10-20 minutes) of comfortably hard running (this would normally be z4).

This all assumes a general training phase and as races approach, training would change to more closely mimic the demands of racing.

Shane
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