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2012-04-22 7:22 AM

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Subject: chiropractic care and injury prevention

As you may know, I'm currently going to a chiropractor to treat an injury. The chiropractor is now telling me that due to the curves in my neck and spine not being what they should be (the dreaded "subluxation" in chiro-speak), I am just going to keep getting injured when I run and I need to complete their treatment plan of regular adjustments, which entails a few months of 2-3x weekly visits and thousands of dollars out of my pocket.

I wanted to do a little research of my own, first. What is everyone's opinion of this sort of thing and, more importantly, does anyone here know or has anyone here been prone to running injury, went through regular chiropractic neck and back crackin', and is now able to run injury free?



2012-04-22 7:26 AM
in reply to: #4165121

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
I would go to a sports medicine facility and be evaluated there. They are use to to sports related injuries, treating them and preventing them. I would not just take the opinion of one chiropractor who may or may or mat not be well versed in sports injuries.
2012-04-22 8:32 AM
in reply to: #4165121

Elite
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Denver, Colorado
Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
In the interest of full disclosure, I've never been to a chiro and never will. I've had back injuries myself and have done the research on chiros and the bottom line is that there is no science supporting the subluxation theory. Having said that, sounds like this place is trying to get you to buy the treatment plan. Go elsewhere.
2012-04-22 8:43 AM
in reply to: #4165190

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention

MikeTheBear - 2012-04-22 9:32 AM In the interest of full disclosure, I've never been to a chiro and never will. I've had back injuries myself and have done the research on chiros and the bottom line is that there is no science supporting the subluxation theory. Having said that, sounds like this place is trying to get you to buy the treatment plan. Go elsewhere.

That is kind of what I was thinking. Unfortunately, one of my best friends is the office manager. She saw me limping last week and told me I should see the doc she works for because he can help my knee. I do think some of what they're doing - E-stim and ultrasound - is helping. However, they're one of those practices that do free xrays for everyone (and everyone is subluxated and in danger of future health ailments) and put everyone on such intense treatment plans.

The worst of it is that she is a hardcore convert to this. We got into a small tiff when we were out last night because she said she cares about me and she's afraid I'll hurt myself so badly that I'll never be able to run again due to the curvature (or lack thereof or whatever's wrong) in my spine. I asked her if this helps other runners. She said they have some patients currently that are injured runners. I told her to find me a success story - someone who was in my position, followed the treatment plan and runs injury free - and I'd consider it. I also said I'd ask around myself. This is me doing just that - asking around - but you can probably tell that I have huge doubts.



Edited by runk8run 2012-04-22 8:44 AM
2012-04-22 9:33 AM
in reply to: #4165121

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2012-04-22 9:40 AM
in reply to: #4165121

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
I have been dealing with Chondromalacia and ITband hamstring issues in my right leg for a long time. As I am ramping up my training I thought I'd try a new route of treatment.
Been to pt and while it's helped I was looking for that ahaaaa this is it cure. I know wishfull thinking. So I went to see a chiro that I've know socially for a long time. Like all my life long time.
Was looking for some ART and while I dd get a little of that I was also xrayed and told I have a short right leg and was given a cork lift to run with in my shoe. (that was not happening) especially sinc I'm doin the minimalist thing. It was also expected I come I. 2x a week for the foreseeable future to continue treatment.
I don't think he was trying to scam me but it just wasn't working for me.
The stim felt good but that was about it.


2012-04-22 10:14 AM
in reply to: #4165254

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
tkos - 2012-04-22 10:33 AM

As with any health care, if the information given to you is unsettling or feels wrong, seek the advice of another specialist. In this case a chiro that specializes in sprts medicine or maybe a PT.

Obviously if you keep getting injured then something is wrong. This is one specialists opinion. Another may give you advice you are more comfortable with.

They don't specialize in sports medicine but they do advertise that they treat sports injuries, which they do, and they do it pretty well (went to a different doc in the practice for e-stim on a calf strain last year. He tried to sell me the same pitch). I've been to another chiro in the past - one who does specialize in sports medicine - and he flat out told me to keep running on my injury so that he could see me immediately post-run. Guess what? I ended up within a run or two of a tibial stress fracture. Not going back to him, umm, ever. I almost didn't pay him but didn't want to fight that battle.

Over the past year, I have seen doctors (who are varying degrees of helpful but usually, with any injury, say rest if it hurts, try running if it doesn't, ice and nsaids; the latest two I've seen are on a big "marathons are unhealthy for anyone to do, ever" kick), physical therapists, massage therapists, everything short of exorcists and faith healers, I think.

I am injury-prone, yes. It's not always the same injury but it's always lower leg. When I get a handle on one thing, something else will pop up. I have tried different shoes, different orthotics, different running form, and the thing that fixes one problem usually seems to bring up something new. Arrgh. My newest, best guess is that I need to try to fix my flat feet instead of relying on orthotics or stability shoes, but I have yet to find a professional who can/will help me with that.

I am seeing a massage therapist as well who does ART and has been the most helpful practitioner I've seen to date. I'm going to ask his opinion.

2012-04-22 10:24 AM
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2012-04-22 10:33 AM
in reply to: #4165312

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
tkos - 2012-04-22 11:24 AM

While my chiro experience was much better, yours isn't. So I suggest not going to see another one. Your posts suggest you are looking for advice to stop seeing them. If tyou don't like their advice and treatment options, then move along. Try PT or massage therapy.

I totally went through numerous leg issues over the last few years. My chiro treated me, but before anything we did a full analysis of my running gait and movements. We found numerous issues. His ART treated the symptoms and freed me up. His at home exercises helped things as well.

But just so you know, as with many things, people can't fix what they can't see is wrong. To have a doctor, or chiro or car mechanic say come back when the problem arises again, isn't that odd. I went through that as well.  It required me to run a hard 5K 1 hour before my visit to push my knee into painful mode. Otherwise I would have been showing up well rested with no symptoms.

But again, all a moot point. Some people like Chiros, other hate them. Some chiros offer different advice than others, some specialize is getting to different results (ie pain free life versus pain free exercise etc...).  But there are other options out there. Look into those

Actually, I was wondering if anyone has ever gone through a chiropractic treatment plan - repeated visits over a period of months for back/neck adjustments, NOT treatment for a specific injury - and found that helpful. This is what my chiropractor is recommending. This will also cost me a crapton of time and money, which I will not invest until I see some evidence, besides his interpretation of my spinal xray, that this will actually prevent injury in the future.

2012-04-22 1:05 PM
in reply to: #4165121

Elite
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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
Treatment plans should only be for 4 weeks and then reassessed thereafter to decide on future frequency and actual treatment. " the subluxation" can be a risk factor but not the primary cause in most injuries. Similar to eating red meat and colon cancer, a risk factor but not the primary problem.

I don't recall from your other post what your problem was but that area need to get 98 percent of the attention.

Either find another chiro or go elsewhere.You want to find a chiro that uses the adjustment as a way to improverange of motion, limit joint restriction and not be using the term subluxationm to readily.

Full disclosure. I am a professor in anatomy and physiology and sports medicine who has worked at most athletic levels treating sports injuries prior to becoming a chiropractor. I am an advocate of chiropractic care but also a critic of about 15 percent of my profession who don't have a clue
2012-04-22 5:56 PM
in reply to: #4165121


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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention

Hi I am a chiropractor in Lancaster Ohio and was sorry to hear about your troubles. I have read all the posts and thought i might shed some light on it.  From what I gather about what you said, you probably have a curvature in your spine. If you do, you are most likely putting more wt on one side or the other. When you have a curve it also alters your biomechanics , you just simply cannot move right. This may lead to future, new or reoccurring injuries. A subluxation is pressure on a nerve that not only affects the muscles, but causes joint and bone deterioration, ligament damage or weakness, and nerves to not function 100%. There are reams of research on subluxations , the previous poster was not aware of. 

Dont make your decision based upon research that you try to read and understand, maybe see another chiro and find someone you are comfortable with. Your injuries are no different than a non athlete, when someone pulls a hamstring they pull the same one you and I have. However, you do need to see someone who will work with you and your triathlons. 

As human beings we will always have health problems. Chiropractic is a natural safe way to deal with those problems. Yes you can take meds and mask the pain, put it affects your liver, kidney and performance . Medication is the third leading cause of death in America, there is something wrong with that if that is our health care system. I am not anti-medical, but why risk it. It should be a last resort. Virtually every pro athlete or team is or has a chiropractor on staff. Not because they have back pain but because the function better. Studies show your reflexes are faster, flexibility is better etc. If you did just actually pull a muscle, you can stretch on your own and wait for it to heal. Pt is ineffective when dealing with spinal injuries, it is more of a muscle thing. 

I hope this helps and clears some things up for you and hope you get better, which ever way you go. 



2012-04-22 6:20 PM
in reply to: #4165121

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention

The right chiro can help but based on what you typed, I'd be very skeptical. I see a chiro somewhat regularly but he does graston and a lot of deep tissue work - very light on the actual back cracking stuff.  And I use his services to augment the physical therapy treatments.

So my recommendation would be to find a good sports doc and physical therapist.  A good one can make all the difference in the world. 

2012-04-22 6:22 PM
in reply to: #4165850

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
oneduke - 2012-04-22 6:56 PM

There are reams of research on subluxations , the previous poster was not aware of. 

I would love to see research in peer-reviewed journals that shows that the chiropractic definition of subluxation is a real thing.  Everything I can find on PubMed states that it is not.

I particularly like this article which states:

"The concepts ofchiropractic are not based on solid science and its therapeutic value has not been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt."

 

In response to the OP's question: I did the chiropractic program.  I have a pinched nerve in my lower back that is the result of a stress fracture in three of my lumbar vertebrae.  It's not always a problem, but it can be quite painful when the nerve becomes inflamed.  I followed the program for several months as prescribed and noticed absolutely no difference in my back.  I did notice a huge difference in my wallet.  Then he started telling me that my autoimmune disease would be cured if I continued to come.  I have a PhD in molecular biology.  I know that's not going to happen, but he refused to listen to actual science.  

2012-04-22 7:49 PM
in reply to: #4165121

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
I would want the opinion of an actual doctor, as well. I had back pains back when I was only running and I went to a chiro. I got the same stuff-back out of alignment, one leg shorter, etc. It didn't get better and I went to my gp; she looked at X-rays and told me that I have spondylethesis and need to not hyperextend my back. She recommended physical therapy, but I just focused on my swimming and biking to strengthen my core, and haven't had any serious back pain since, except for the normal soreness from training. If I had stuck with my chiro, he would still be popping my back and telling me to come back twice next week. I would, based on my experience, go with a real doctor.
2012-04-22 8:05 PM
in reply to: #4165850

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
oneduke - 2012-04-22 6:56 PM

Hi I am a chiropractor in Lancaster Ohio and was sorry to hear about your troubles. I have read all the posts and thought i might shed some light on it.  From what I gather about what you said, you probably have a curvature in your spine. If you do, you are most likely putting more wt on one side or the other. When you have a curve it also alters your biomechanics , you just simply cannot move right. This may lead to future, new or reoccurring injuries. A subluxation is pressure on a nerve that not only affects the muscles, but causes joint and bone deterioration, ligament damage or weakness, and nerves to not function 100%. There are reams of research on subluxations , the previous poster was not aware of. 

Dont make your decision based upon research that you try to read and understand, maybe see another chiro and find someone you are comfortable with. Your injuries are no different than a non athlete, when someone pulls a hamstring they pull the same one you and I have. However, you do need to see someone who will work with you and your triathlons. 

As human beings we will always have health problems. Chiropractic is a natural safe way to deal with those problems. Yes you can take meds and mask the pain, put it affects your liver, kidney and performance . Medication is the third leading cause of death in America, there is something wrong with that if that is our health care system. I am not anti-medical, but why risk it. It should be a last resort. Virtually every pro athlete or team is or has a chiropractor on staff. Not because they have back pain but because the function better. Studies show your reflexes are faster, flexibility is better etc. If you did just actually pull a muscle, you can stretch on your own and wait for it to heal. Pt is ineffective when dealing with spinal injuries, it is more of a muscle thing. 

I hope this helps and clears some things up for you and hope you get better, which ever way you go. 

Doctor, I appreciate your feedback. You're echoing a lot of what my current chiro is telling me.

However, that part that I bolded?? That just freaking scares me. "Don't make decisions that affect your health and finances based on RESEARCH! That's just crazy talk."

2012-04-22 8:07 PM
in reply to: #4166044

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention

WoodrowCall - 2012-04-22 8:49 PM I would want the opinion of an actual doctor, as well. I had back pains back when I was only running and I went to a chiro. I got the same stuff-back out of alignment, one leg shorter, etc. It didn't get better and I went to my gp; she looked at X-rays and told me that I have spondylethesis and need to not hyperextend my back. She recommended physical therapy, but I just focused on my swimming and biking to strengthen my core, and haven't had any serious back pain since, except for the normal soreness from training. If I had stuck with my chiro, he would still be popping my back and telling me to come back twice next week. I would, based on my experience, go with a real doctor.

I have no back pain. None. Zero. Ever. Quite possibly the one part of my body that never hurts from training, knock on wood.



2012-04-22 8:13 PM
in reply to: #4165121

Expert
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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention

Yeah, I should mention just to clarify.....I have zero issues with back and neck pain. The issue currently being treated is a calf muscle strain (and I appeared to have pulled a few things around my knee area as well, but that's looking better.)

The chiropractic office is treating the muscular issues very nicely with e-stim and ultrasound. I think I will continue to see them for that. However, I am very very skeptical that I need multiple weekly back crackins to prevent further lower leg issues. He will continue to treat the leg issue without me agreeing to a drawn-out treatment plan; the downside is that I have to hear the spiel about it.

I am going to ask the doc if he can point me to some success stories from people who were in my boat, though.

2012-04-22 10:02 PM
in reply to: #4165121

Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention

Primary Care physician specializing in sports medicine or an orthopedic surgeon specializing in sports medicine is what you want.  Honestly I'd start with the primary care side of things first and they can refer you if ortho is warranted.

2012-04-22 10:42 PM
in reply to: #4166101

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
runk8run - 2012-04-22 9:13 PM

Yeah, I should mention just to clarify.....I have zero issues with back and neck pain. The issue currently being treated is a calf muscle strain (and I appeared to have pulled a few things around my knee area as well, but that's looking better.)

The chiropractic office is treating the muscular issues very nicely with e-stim and ultrasound. I think I will continue to see them for that. However, I am very very skeptical that I need multiple weekly back crackins to prevent further lower leg issues. He will continue to treat the leg issue without me agreeing to a drawn-out treatment plan; the downside is that I have to hear the spiel about it.

I am going to ask the doc if he can point me to some success stories from people who were in my boat, though.

If the e-stim and ultrasound are working, I think you should be able to find a sports medicine doc or PT to do that.  I had both done in combination with strengthening exercises by my therapist when I was doing PT for a muscle weakness in my ankle (I kept spraining it while I was pregnant).

2012-04-23 8:02 AM
in reply to: #4166083

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
runk8run - 2012-04-22 9:05 PM
oneduke - 2012-04-22 6:56 PM

Hi I am a chiropractor in Lancaster Ohio and was sorry to hear about your troubles. I have read all the posts and thought i might shed some light on it.  From what I gather about what you said, you probably have a curvature in your spine. If you do, you are most likely putting more wt on one side or the other. When you have a curve it also alters your biomechanics , you just simply cannot move right. This may lead to future, new or reoccurring injuries. A subluxation is pressure on a nerve that not only affects the muscles, but causes joint and bone deterioration, ligament damage or weakness, and nerves to not function 100%. There are reams of research on subluxations , the previous poster was not aware of. 

Dont make your decision based upon research that you try to read and understand, maybe see another chiro and find someone you are comfortable with. Your injuries are no different than a non athlete, when someone pulls a hamstring they pull the same one you and I have. However, you do need to see someone who will work with you and your triathlons. 

As human beings we will always have health problems. Chiropractic is a natural safe way to deal with those problems. Yes you can take meds and mask the pain, put it affects your liver, kidney and performance . Medication is the third leading cause of death in America, there is something wrong with that if that is our health care system. I am not anti-medical, but why risk it. It should be a last resort. Virtually every pro athlete or team is or has a chiropractor on staff. Not because they have back pain but because the function better. Studies show your reflexes are faster, flexibility is better etc. If you did just actually pull a muscle, you can stretch on your own and wait for it to heal. Pt is ineffective when dealing with spinal injuries, it is more of a muscle thing. 

I hope this helps and clears some things up for you and hope you get better, which ever way you go. 

Doctor, I appreciate your feedback. You're echoing a lot of what my current chiro is telling me.

However, that part that I bolded?? That just freaking scares me. "Don't make decisions that affect your health and finances based on RESEARCH! That's just crazy talk."

Translation:  You are way too stupid to understand the highly technical information published about these conditions and treatments.  Simply go to someone much more intelligent than you, and let them tell you what you should do.  Now go back to reading your cute little Dr. Seuss book, and leave the intellectual material to us smart folks in white coats.

2012-04-23 8:29 AM
in reply to: #4165121

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention

I have yet to find a running overuse type injury that couldn't be fixed with a bit of rest followed by running more, mostly easy.  Usually when I find myself getting some sort of injury I can directly associate it with decreased running frequency and the same or even increased duration and intensity.  Then I berate myself, take some time off and start building back running every day easy.

I have trouble believing all this mumbo jumbo chiro crap.  Look around at some of the people you see racing some time.  People with serious physical issues.  One foot turned in, a bad limp, hunched or curved backs, you see it all, and yet they are out there running.  Makes you wonder doesn't it?



2012-04-23 8:36 AM
in reply to: #4165121

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention

I have a few friends who've been happy with chiropracticc care, and one positive experience in my case, but they all been back  issues, not other stuff. In my case, after a bad fall on ice where I injured my SI joint, I was literally "stuck" and couldn't bend over and straighten up for days. I tried other treatments but to no available. The chiropractor did get me "unstuck". A few friends (runners) felt it offered relief from low-back pain. However, if your issues are in your knees or lower legs, then it makes more sense to see a doctor who specializes in sports medicine. Yes, biomechanical issues can make you vulnerable to some injuries in that area, but they are usually amendable to RICE, stretching, strengthening, massage, and PT.

2012-04-23 9:41 AM
in reply to: #4166101

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
runk8run - 2012-04-22 8:13 PM

Yeah, I should mention just to clarify.....I have zero issues with back and neck pain. The issue currently being treated is a calf muscle strain (and I appeared to have pulled a few things around my knee area as well, but that's looking better.)

The chiropractic office is treating the muscular issues very nicely with e-stim and ultrasound. I think I will continue to see them for that. However, I am very very skeptical that I need multiple weekly back crackins to prevent further lower leg issues. He will continue to treat the leg issue without me agreeing to a drawn-out treatment plan; the downside is that I have to hear the spiel about it.

I am going to ask the doc if he can point me to some success stories from people who were in my boat, though.

 I would look very closely at the possibility of muscle weakness somewhere.   My wife has has spent the better part of the last 5 years cycling through various running injuries.  We just kept treating the individual injuries and but never really getting to the root cause - until just recently.

A very good physical therapist was able to pinpoint a hip weakness as the culprit - her really wimpy hips were causing issues with the IT band, iliopsoas inflamation, ankle pain, calf pain, etc. 

 

2012-04-23 10:03 AM
in reply to: #4165121

Master
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Sedona, AZ
Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention

I love going to the chiropractor. I have a good friend who is one, and he used to 'adjust' me all of the time. For me, however, it's all about immediate pain relief. I don't believe in 'energy' and skeletal imbalances (at least in the same way that chiro's seem to preach it). Every study I've read (and my own experience) is that they are useful for pain relief, and that's what I use them for. I tell them where I want cracked, and they crack it. If my back starts to hurt again, I go back for more.

When they start telling me they want to crack my little toe because my spine is curved wrong and it's causing my elbow to hurt, I want my money back.

2012-04-23 6:16 PM
in reply to: #4166633

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Subject: RE: chiropractic care and injury prevention
2453V - 2012-04-23 9:29 AM

I have yet to find a running overuse type injury that couldn't be fixed with a bit of rest followed by running more, mostly easy.  Usually when I find myself getting some sort of injury I can directly associate it with decreased running frequency and the same or even increased duration and intensity.  Then I berate myself, take some time off and start building back running every day easy.

I have trouble believing all this mumbo jumbo chiro crap.  Look around at some of the people you see racing some time.  People with serious physical issues.  One foot turned in, a bad limp, hunched or curved backs, you see it all, and yet they are out there running.  Makes you wonder doesn't it?

Exactly. And I can't believe that all the non-injured runners out there get regular spinal adjustments.

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