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2012-05-11 12:48 AM
in reply to: #4203870

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
Left Brain - 2012-05-10 10:22 PM
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-11 12:04 AM
Left Brain - 2012-05-10 9:49 PM

I've been in Law Enforcement for 26 years.  Someone show me a case....ONE CASE, where CP showed up on someone's computer by "accident" and they were convicted.  It DOES NOT happen.

In the case before the court, the defendant downloaded hundreds of images of CP......since his IP addy is easily identified by CP providers, it's surely possible that he was sent images he didn't download, but merely looked at.  Does that make him innocent? Hardly.

DanielG - I respect your opinion like I do everyone's who is in Law Enforcement and does a good job....but you are wrong in this case.  I'm sorry, where there is smoke, there is fire when it comes to CP.....that's just no longer arguable in the face of all we have come to know about pedophiles.

Our society still wants to believe mistakes are made in these cases......but we can't point to any. And IF we are to error, it's about time we did so on the side of children.....we'll be wrong much less than we have been....as the Catholic Church.

IF this court wanted to tighten up the laws, fine.....I agree.  But to write, "viewing child porn is no longer illegal in New York" is absolutely irresponsible.  You CAN'T change my mind.

I can't believe a judge would actually write those words down and I still can't see how they don't think that just viewing CP "facilitates" it.  

 

Of course, you get it.  We can no longer, as a society, believe adults when it comes to the abuse of our children.....OUR CHILDREN ARE NOT LYING.......THE ADULTS ARE!

I'll be happy to write about my experience investigating child sex abusers......but nobody really wants to hear it......including me.

I'm happy that New York will tighten up their laws....but this case was not the one to do it over.

The defendant in this case didn't view ANYTHING by "passively viewing"......"passively viewing" CP is not possible.  

I'm telling you....NEVER believe an an adult over a child in a case of child abuse/porn....again, our kids are NOT lying, the adults are. 

X2



2012-05-11 3:58 AM
in reply to: #4203850

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 12:49 AM

 But to write, "viewing child porn is no longer illegal in New York" is absolutely irresponsible.  You CAN'T change my mind.



That one I'll agree with entirely too.

When I teach searching for CP one thing I do specifically say is if it's only in the cache and nowhere else you're going to have a beast of a time proving anything. This case just makes what I've been saying have case law backing.

Right now we're just starting in on the CP laws. Some of them are way overboard and need toned down a bit (arrest a 14 year old for taking pictures of herself?) Before long these will shake themselves out and they'll end up better laws.

I also agree with William Blackstone, Franklin, et al, better 100 guilty go free than one innocent suffer. Laws need to be slanted towards making you work for a conviction.

(edit) and yeah, dinner conversation in my family reunions rarely include details of my job



Edited by DanielG 2012-05-11 3:59 AM
2012-05-11 7:10 AM
in reply to: #4203596

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-10 9:07 PM

tricrazy - 2012-05-10 5:43 PM I can safely say child porn has never popped up on my computer.  I don't believe that is something people don't have to look for and just shows up.

Agreed

I wasn't sure what kind of pron it was, but one day, some years ago before the company installed strong firewalls on their servers, I was trying to look up some information from the FDA.  yes, Food and Drug Adminstration.  I typed FDA.com

Weird images appears on my screen and clicking the [X] would open up 3 more screens of those images/videos. 

I wasn't "looking" for porn.  It was a mistake and if my company only act "according to the book" and did not consider it a mistake, then I would have been fired. 

It's FDA.gov

 

2012-05-11 7:30 AM
in reply to: #4203534

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
You know, this guy had over 100 images of child porn on his computer.  How that is not intentional is beyond me. 
2012-05-11 7:49 AM
in reply to: #4203859

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 1:03 AM

 "It does not appear to be illegal to view CP under NY statutes"

 

Only if you believe that CP just flies onto your computer and you don't have to do anything to make it happen.  As the court said in it's opinion....."passively viewing".....would someone please explain that to me?  I don't "passively view" anything on my computer....and neither do any of you.

The law states that "procurement" of child porn is illegal.  If you are viewing it, you have "procured" it....because it didn't just appear out of nowhere.  This is really easy. 

Consider this case: someone posts a CP picture in this thread and you open the thread before a moderator can remove it. Congratulations,...you, the moderator and everyone else that opened the thread just viewed it and by your logic are guilty of a crime. The chances of this happening are low but it would be very easy for someone to do. It might make you feel better to see that the only people prosecuted have had ample caches of cp on their computer, making you think the above scenario never happens, but I'm sure it does. We just don't have the ability to track and prosecute all the cases like this, so only the actual predators are targeted....but what if that situation happened to you and you brought your computer into a shop for service and the tech reported the pic in the cache. Do you feel like you should go to jail and be a registered sex offender? There is a difference between 'likely to happen', 'easy to happen' and 'actually happens'
2012-05-11 7:58 AM
in reply to: #4203870

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 12:22 AM
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-11 12:04 AM
Left Brain - 2012-05-10 9:49 PM

I've been in Law Enforcement for 26 years.  Someone show me a case....ONE CASE, where CP showed up on someone's computer by "accident" and they were convicted.  It DOES NOT happen.

In the case before the court, the defendant downloaded hundreds of images of CP......since his IP addy is easily identified by CP providers, it's surely possible that he was sent images he didn't download, but merely looked at.  Does that make him innocent? Hardly.

DanielG - I respect your opinion like I do everyone's who is in Law Enforcement and does a good job....but you are wrong in this case.  I'm sorry, where there is smoke, there is fire when it comes to CP.....that's just no longer arguable in the face of all we have come to know about pedophiles.

Our society still wants to believe mistakes are made in these cases......but we can't point to any. And IF we are to error, it's about time we did so on the side of children.....we'll be wrong much less than we have been....as the Catholic Church.

IF this court wanted to tighten up the laws, fine.....I agree.  But to write, "viewing child porn is no longer illegal in New York" is absolutely irresponsible.  You CAN'T change my mind.

I can't believe a judge would actually write those words down and I still can't see how they don't think that just viewing CP "facilitates" it.  

 

Of course, you get it.  We can no longer, as a society, believe adults when it comes to the abuse of our children.....OUR CHILDREN ARE NOT LYING.......THE ADULTS ARE!

I'll be happy to write about my experience investigating child sex abusers......but nobody really wants to hear it......including me.

I'm happy that New York will tighten up their laws....but this case was not the one to do it over.

The defendant in this case didn't view ANYTHING by "passively viewing"......"passively viewing" CP is not possible.  

I'm telling you....NEVER believe an an adult over a child in a case of child abuse/porn....again, our kids are NOT lying, the adults are. 

Are you saying there's never been a case where a child lied?  If that's the case then why even have a legal system?

I'm sure that in 99% of the cases the child is telling the truth, so don't get me wrong, but I don't think its responsible to say that they never lie.



2012-05-11 8:06 AM
in reply to: #4204100

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
tuwood - 2012-05-11 8:58 AM
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 12:22 AM
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-11 12:04 AM
Left Brain - 2012-05-10 9:49 PM

I've been in Law Enforcement for 26 years.  Someone show me a case....ONE CASE, where CP showed up on someone's computer by "accident" and they were convicted.  It DOES NOT happen.

In the case before the court, the defendant downloaded hundreds of images of CP......since his IP addy is easily identified by CP providers, it's surely possible that he was sent images he didn't download, but merely looked at.  Does that make him innocent? Hardly.

DanielG - I respect your opinion like I do everyone's who is in Law Enforcement and does a good job....but you are wrong in this case.  I'm sorry, where there is smoke, there is fire when it comes to CP.....that's just no longer arguable in the face of all we have come to know about pedophiles.

Our society still wants to believe mistakes are made in these cases......but we can't point to any. And IF we are to error, it's about time we did so on the side of children.....we'll be wrong much less than we have been....as the Catholic Church.

IF this court wanted to tighten up the laws, fine.....I agree.  But to write, "viewing child porn is no longer illegal in New York" is absolutely irresponsible.  You CAN'T change my mind.

I can't believe a judge would actually write those words down and I still can't see how they don't think that just viewing CP "facilitates" it.  

 

Of course, you get it.  We can no longer, as a society, believe adults when it comes to the abuse of our children.....OUR CHILDREN ARE NOT LYING.......THE ADULTS ARE!

I'll be happy to write about my experience investigating child sex abusers......but nobody really wants to hear it......including me.

I'm happy that New York will tighten up their laws....but this case was not the one to do it over.

The defendant in this case didn't view ANYTHING by "passively viewing"......"passively viewing" CP is not possible.  

I'm telling you....NEVER believe an an adult over a child in a case of child abuse/porn....again, our kids are NOT lying, the adults are. 

Are you saying there's never been a case where a child lied?  If that's the case then why even have a legal system?

I'm sure that in 99% of the cases the child is telling the truth, so don't get me wrong, but I don't think its responsible to say that they never lie.

 

There have been several well documented cases of prosecutors manipulating children to lie under oath about their parents abusing them.  Some even went so far as to point out their parents in court and testify against them.

2012-05-11 8:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
VO2Matt - 2012-05-11 7:49 AM 

 "There is a difference between 'likely to happen', 'easy to happen' and 'actually happens'

 

Sorry....you left out NEVER HAPPENS.  I defy you to find me a single case of a person convicted of possessing or procuring child porn who did not intentionally possess or procure it.  You don't even have an argument.   

 



Edited by Left Brain 2012-05-11 8:36 AM
2012-05-11 8:50 AM
in reply to: #4204107

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
VO2Matt - 2012-05-11 8:06 AM
tuwood - 2012-05-11 8:58 AM
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 12:22 AM
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-11 12:04 AM
Left Brain - 2012-05-10 9:49 PM

I've been in Law Enforcement for 26 years.  Someone show me a case....ONE CASE, where CP showed up on someone's computer by "accident" and they were convicted.  It DOES NOT happen.

In the case before the court, the defendant downloaded hundreds of images of CP......since his IP addy is easily identified by CP providers, it's surely possible that he was sent images he didn't download, but merely looked at.  Does that make him innocent? Hardly.

DanielG - I respect your opinion like I do everyone's who is in Law Enforcement and does a good job....but you are wrong in this case.  I'm sorry, where there is smoke, there is fire when it comes to CP.....that's just no longer arguable in the face of all we have come to know about pedophiles.

Our society still wants to believe mistakes are made in these cases......but we can't point to any. And IF we are to error, it's about time we did so on the side of children.....we'll be wrong much less than we have been....as the Catholic Church.

IF this court wanted to tighten up the laws, fine.....I agree.  But to write, "viewing child porn is no longer illegal in New York" is absolutely irresponsible.  You CAN'T change my mind.

I can't believe a judge would actually write those words down and I still can't see how they don't think that just viewing CP "facilitates" it.  

 

Of course, you get it.  We can no longer, as a society, believe adults when it comes to the abuse of our children.....OUR CHILDREN ARE NOT LYING.......THE ADULTS ARE!

I'll be happy to write about my experience investigating child sex abusers......but nobody really wants to hear it......including me.

I'm happy that New York will tighten up their laws....but this case was not the one to do it over.

The defendant in this case didn't view ANYTHING by "passively viewing"......"passively viewing" CP is not possible.  

I'm telling you....NEVER believe an an adult over a child in a case of child abuse/porn....again, our kids are NOT lying, the adults are. 

Are you saying there's never been a case where a child lied?  If that's the case then why even have a legal system?

I'm sure that in 99% of the cases the child is telling the truth, so don't get me wrong, but I don't think its responsible to say that they never lie.

 

There have been several well documented cases of prosecutors manipulating children to lie under oath about their parents abusing them.  Some even went so far as to point out their parents in court and testify against them.

 

Cite the cases.

2012-05-11 8:54 AM
in reply to: #4204100

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
tuwood - 2012-05-11 7:58 AM
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 12:22 AM
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-11 12:04 AM
Left Brain - 2012-05-10 9:49 PM

I've been in Law Enforcement for 26 years.  Someone show me a case....ONE CASE, where CP showed up on someone's computer by "accident" and they were convicted.  It DOES NOT happen.

In the case before the court, the defendant downloaded hundreds of images of CP......since his IP addy is easily identified by CP providers, it's surely possible that he was sent images he didn't download, but merely looked at.  Does that make him innocent? Hardly.

DanielG - I respect your opinion like I do everyone's who is in Law Enforcement and does a good job....but you are wrong in this case.  I'm sorry, where there is smoke, there is fire when it comes to CP.....that's just no longer arguable in the face of all we have come to know about pedophiles.

Our society still wants to believe mistakes are made in these cases......but we can't point to any. And IF we are to error, it's about time we did so on the side of children.....we'll be wrong much less than we have been....as the Catholic Church.

IF this court wanted to tighten up the laws, fine.....I agree.  But to write, "viewing child porn is no longer illegal in New York" is absolutely irresponsible.  You CAN'T change my mind.

I can't believe a judge would actually write those words down and I still can't see how they don't think that just viewing CP "facilitates" it.  

 

Of course, you get it.  We can no longer, as a society, believe adults when it comes to the abuse of our children.....OUR CHILDREN ARE NOT LYING.......THE ADULTS ARE!

I'll be happy to write about my experience investigating child sex abusers......but nobody really wants to hear it......including me.

I'm happy that New York will tighten up their laws....but this case was not the one to do it over.

The defendant in this case didn't view ANYTHING by "passively viewing"......"passively viewing" CP is not possible.  

I'm telling you....NEVER believe an an adult over a child in a case of child abuse/porn....again, our kids are NOT lying, the adults are. 

Are you saying there's never been a case where a child lied?  If that's the case then why even have a legal system?

I'm sure that in 99% of the cases the child is telling the truth, so don't get me wrong, but I don't think its responsible to say that they never lie.

Children don't lie about being sexually abused.  I'm sorry, they just don't.  I suppose you can try to make a case that they can be manipulated to lie.....but that's another issue.  if a child comes to you and says they have been sexually abused by an adult....they have.

2012-05-11 9:04 AM
in reply to: #4204192

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 9:50 AM

VO2Matt - 2012-05-11 8:06 AM There have been several well documented cases of prosecutors manipulating children to lie under oath about their parents abusing them.  Some even went so far as to point out their parents in court and testify against them.

 

Cite the cases.



Little Rascals day care
Faith Chapel Church ritual abuse case
Peter Hugh McGregor Ellis
Martensville satanic sex scandal
Wenatchee child abuse prosecutions
Kern County child abuse cases
Fells Acres Day Care Center preschool trial
Wee Care Nursery School
Bernard Baran


Just a few off the top of my head. Not all parents, a few daycares in there too but same thing.




2012-05-11 9:16 AM
in reply to: #4204204

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 9:54 AM

Children don't lie about being sexually abused.  I'm sorry, they just don't.  I suppose you can try to make a case that they can be manipulated to lie.....but that's another issue.  if a child comes to you and says they have been sexually abused by an adult....they have.




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11273395
False memories in women with self-reported childhood sexual abuse: an empirical study.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/falsely-accused-virginia-teacher-sean-lani...
Then in December 2009, after giving a verbal warning to a 12-year-old girl after she misbehaved on a school bus, the girl reportedly told her friends, "Mr. Lanigan's a jerk," according to court records reported by The Washington Post.

Then she said, "I'm going to make him pay."

There are a couple middle schoolers cases I cannot find offhand where the girls were afraid of getting in trouble so they made up rape stories.

Yeah, it does happen. It's rare, granted, but it does happen.

2012-05-11 9:17 AM
in reply to: #4204156

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 9:35 AM

VO2Matt - 2012-05-11 7:49 AM 

 "There is a difference between 'likely to happen', 'easy to happen' and 'actually happens'

 

Sorry....you left out NEVER HAPPENS.  I defy you to find me a single case of a person convicted of possessing or procuring child porn who did not intentionally possess or procure it.  You don't even have an argument.   

 



One of the problems with this whole thing is it doesn't matter if they're convicted or not. Once the charges are brought, the person's life is over.

"Have you ever been arrested?" "What were the charges?"
You don't even get to sit at the Group W bench, you won't get the job.

2012-05-11 9:19 AM
in reply to: #4203534

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
Tell ya what, I come here to play around a bit and get away from garbage like this.

Enjoy the thread and the day.

2012-05-11 9:22 AM
in reply to: #4204273

Master
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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
DanielG - 2012-05-11 10:17 AM
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 9:35 AM
VO2Matt - 2012-05-11 7:49 AM 

 "There is a difference between 'likely to happen', 'easy to happen' and 'actually happens'

 

Sorry....you left out NEVER HAPPENS.  I defy you to find me a single case of a person convicted of possessing or procuring child porn who did not intentionally possess or procure it.  You don't even have an argument.   

 

One of the problems with this whole thing is it doesn't matter if they're convicted or not. Once the charges are brought, the person's life is over. "Have you ever been arrested?" "What were the charges?" You don't even get to sit at the Group W bench, you won't get the job.

Haha!!

 

2012-05-11 9:25 AM
in reply to: #4204276

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?

DanielG - 2012-05-11 9:19 AM Tell ya what, I come here to play around a bit and get away from garbage like this. Enjoy the thread and the day.

 

Agreed.....but as a parting gift.....I know you know that most of the cases you cited happened decades ago...when interviewing techniques that have since been discredited were being used. 

I will say this again..... when a child, on his/her own, accuses an adult of sexual abuse....THEY ARE NOT LYING. 



Edited by Left Brain 2012-05-11 9:34 AM


2012-05-11 9:26 AM
in reply to: #4204079

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
VO2Matt - 2012-05-11 5:49 AM
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 1:03 AM

 "It does not appear to be illegal to view CP under NY statutes"

 

Only if you believe that CP just flies onto your computer and you don't have to do anything to make it happen.  As the court said in it's opinion....."passively viewing".....would someone please explain that to me?  I don't "passively view" anything on my computer....and neither do any of you.

The law states that "procurement" of child porn is illegal.  If you are viewing it, you have "procured" it....because it didn't just appear out of nowhere.  This is really easy. 

Consider this case: someone posts a CP picture in this thread and you open the thread before a moderator can remove it. Congratulations,...you, the moderator and everyone else that opened the thread just viewed it and by your logic are guilty of a crime. The chances of this happening are low but it would be very easy for someone to do. It might make you feel better to see that the only people prosecuted have had ample caches of cp on their computer, making you think the above scenario never happens, but I'm sure it does. We just don't have the ability to track and prosecute all the cases like this, so only the actual predators are targeted....but what if that situation happened to you and you brought your computer into a shop for service and the tech reported the pic in the cache. Do you feel like you should go to jail and be a registered sex offender? There is a difference between 'likely to happen', 'easy to happen' and 'actually happens'

Sorry Matt - not even close to the same thing.  Maybe DanielG can chime in here, but I don't believe that every image of every website is stored in your cache.  If someone were to post a CP picture in this thread - I don't think it automatically goes into the Cache.  Those sites plant cookies, viruses and places images with attached viruses on them in your cache so they can more easily target you and serve up more, even quicker.  Basically, it's for marketing purposes.  Speeds load times on the web page also. 

Also - if someone a picture on this thread, I saw the picture immediately called the police and reported it along with the username of the person that posted the image - I highly doubt that an over zealous prosecutor would try to prosecute me for "viewing" the image.  Now if I saw it, and my computer history showed that I returned to the forum every day for a week and kept viewing the picture - clearly something doesn't make sense there and I should be prosecuted.  Why shouldn't I be.  Just because I didn't save the picture?  Ridiculous.

We are not talking about people that accidentally view 1 image, we are talking about predators that surf the web, go to child porn sites, order child porn etc.  Also - do you actually think that there is a possibility of a pedophile posting a CP image in a "normal" thread somewhere?  These people keep to themselves, because they know that what they are doing is wrong.  They also know that posting images is "distributing" and punishment is much more severe for distributors than viewers.  It's a silly example.  

2012-05-11 9:35 AM
in reply to: #4204276

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?

DanielG - 2012-05-11 7:19 AM Tell ya what, I come here to play around a bit and get away from garbage like this. Enjoy the thread and the day.

I understand, because you work around it, but for the rest of us, I believe this is a good conversation to have.  IMO - this ruling was ridiculous and people should be ticked off about this.  

If there is any good to come out of this, it's that the NY legislature is taking action to correct this. Hopefully other states who don't currently have proper wording in their laws will be proactive and do the same.  I do agree that it is the job of the courts to interpret the law, and not make the law.  

The original point and question of this thread was "How can they not think that viewing CP is facilitating" the child porn industry?"  I wanted to know if people think that simply viewing child porn "facilitates" the industry.  

Left brain brought up a good point, and another question that is very closely related.  How can these judges not think that "viewing" the CP is procuring it because one can not "passively" view anything on their computer?

I would like to hear peoples opinions on these 3 questions.

  1. Do you think viewing CP facilitates the CP industry?
  2. Can you passively view CP on your computer?
  3. Do you think you have "procurred" CP if you have viewed it on the computer? (went to porn sites and watched videos or searched images)
2012-05-11 10:05 AM
in reply to: #4204294

Elite
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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-11 10:26 AM
VO2Matt - 2012-05-11 5:49 AM
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 1:03 AM

 "It does not appear to be illegal to view CP under NY statutes"

 

Only if you believe that CP just flies onto your computer and you don't have to do anything to make it happen.  As the court said in it's opinion....."passively viewing".....would someone please explain that to me?  I don't "passively view" anything on my computer....and neither do any of you.

The law states that "procurement" of child porn is illegal.  If you are viewing it, you have "procured" it....because it didn't just appear out of nowhere.  This is really easy. 

Consider this case: someone posts a CP picture in this thread and you open the thread before a moderator can remove it. Congratulations,...you, the moderator and everyone else that opened the thread just viewed it and by your logic are guilty of a crime. The chances of this happening are low but it would be very easy for someone to do. It might make you feel better to see that the only people prosecuted have had ample caches of cp on their computer, making you think the above scenario never happens, but I'm sure it does. We just don't have the ability to track and prosecute all the cases like this, so only the actual predators are targeted....but what if that situation happened to you and you brought your computer into a shop for service and the tech reported the pic in the cache. Do you feel like you should go to jail and be a registered sex offender? There is a difference between 'likely to happen', 'easy to happen' and 'actually happens'

Sorry Matt - not even close to the same thing.  Maybe DanielG can chime in here, but I don't believe that every image of every website is stored in your cache.  If someone were to post a CP picture in this thread - I don't think it automatically goes into the Cache.  Those sites plant cookies, viruses and places images with attached viruses on them in your cache so they can more easily target you and serve up more, even quicker.  Basically, it's for marketing purposes.  Speeds load times on the web page also. 

Also - if someone a picture on this thread, I saw the picture immediately called the police and reported it along with the username of the person that posted the image - I highly doubt that an over zealous prosecutor would try to prosecute me for "viewing" the image.  Now if I saw it, and my computer history showed that I returned to the forum every day for a week and kept viewing the picture - clearly something doesn't make sense there and I should be prosecuted.  Why shouldn't I be.  Just because I didn't save the picture?  Ridiculous.

We are not talking about people that accidentally view 1 image, we are talking about predators that surf the web, go to child porn sites, order child porn etc.  Also - do you actually think that there is a possibility of a pedophile posting a CP image in a "normal" thread somewhere?  These people keep to themselves, because they know that what they are doing is wrong.  They also know that posting images is "distributing" and punishment is much more severe for distributors than viewers.  It's a silly example.  

caching is a function of the browser used to speed up page loads.  There doesn't have to be anything special about the image for it to get cached.  If it comes up on the screen, it can be cached.  If you looked, you would see most of the adds on this page are sitting in your cache right now.  note: the issue of 'viewing' the image has nothing to do with whether the image is cached or not...that's just how it can be proved that you viewed it.  I'm sure web server logs could be used just as easily.

In your last post, you stated "If you are viewing it, you have "procured" it....because it didn't just appear out of nowhere", but in your last reply, you say " if someone a picture on this thread, I saw the picture immediately called the police and reported it along with the username of the person that posted the image - I highly doubt that an over zealous prosecutor would try to prosecute me for "viewing" the image."  Are you saying now that accidentally seeing the picture isn't "procurement"?  

You do realize that this argument you just made is the same that I am making...that intent is the key factor.  Not getting prosecuted for simply 'viewing' the image implies that 'passively viewing' is not a crime....which I think you just agreed to.  If you came to this thread because you knew the picture was there...that is different and not passive viewing.  There was intent to view it.

You also cannot say 'that would never happen because somebody wouldn't do it'.  It is technically possible (although the chances are remote) that someone could post an image in this very thread....or if you want a more likely scenario...you are cruising reddit and open a random post.  Just because it isn't likely to happen, doesn't mean that the law should be written around that premise, because if it did happen, and it happened to you, you would be pretty upset at the injustice of having your life ruined for innocently opening a web browser.

I think it boils down to this:

It is technically feasible that a person can innocently stumble upon a CP image on the internet without specifically looking for it.  If you think otherwise, you are pretty nieve about the internet.  Should this constitute a crime?

or more realistically:

More guilty people than innocent people will have any sort of trace of CP on their computer, so is it better to falsely convict one or two innocent people if you also convict 10 more guilty people, or let some guilty people go so that no innocent person goes to jail? 

2012-05-11 10:27 AM
in reply to: #4204401

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
VO2Matt - 2012-05-11 8:05 AM
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-11 10:26 AM
VO2Matt - 2012-05-11 5:49 AM
Left Brain - 2012-05-11 1:03 AM

 

 

I think it boils down to this:

It is technically feasible that a person can innocently stumble upon a CP image on the internet without specifically looking for it.  If you think otherwise, you are pretty nieve about the internet.  Should this constitute a crime?

or more realistically:

More guilty people than innocent people will have any sort of trace of CP on their computer, so is it better to falsely convict one or two innocent people if you also convict 10 more guilty people, or let some guilty people go so that no innocent person goes to jail? 

2 very good questions.  

You are right, it is technically feasible.  It also is technically feasible that some unknown alien visits our planet and some human mates with it, causing an offspring that destroys the universe.  Should we write a law to prevent this because you can't say that it's not possible?  We need to start applying a little common sense to laws that are on the books.  Does it make sense to prosecute a teenager (under CP laws) for sending a naked pic of him/her self to another teenager?  No.  

I disagree that people "accidentally" stumble upon CP on the internet, but I will concede that it is possible.  I know a lot about the internet, I work on it every day, I do thousands upon thousands of different searches for different words and websites on a regular basis and I have never, ever accidentally watched or viewed CP.  

As for the locking up one innocent person.  I know this is a slippery slope, but yes, when it comes to pedophiles, I do not want a single guilty one on the streets.  Not 1.  I have to admit, that's a tough one for me to even type, because I believe in innocent until proven guilty (a system that prevents "witch hunts").  But when it comes to an innocent child getting raped....you can not take a chance that a single pedophile is walking the streets. 

2012-05-11 10:56 AM
in reply to: #4204315

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-11 10:35 AM

DanielG - 2012-05-11 7:19 AM Tell ya what, I come here to play around a bit and get away from garbage like this. Enjoy the thread and the day.

I understand, because you work around it, but for the rest of us, I believe this is a good conversation to have.  IMO - this ruling was ridiculous and people should be ticked off about this.  

If there is any good to come out of this, it's that the NY legislature is taking action to correct this. Hopefully other states who don't currently have proper wording in their laws will be proactive and do the same.  I do agree that it is the job of the courts to interpret the law, and not make the law.  

The original point and question of this thread was "How can they not think that viewing CP is facilitating" the child porn industry?"  I wanted to know if people think that simply viewing child porn "facilitates" the industry.  

Left brain brought up a good point, and another question that is very closely related.  How can these judges not think that "viewing" the CP is procuring it because one can not "passively" view anything on their computer?

I would like to hear peoples opinions on these 3 questions.

  1. Do you think viewing CP facilitates the CP industry?
  2. Can you passively view CP on your computer?
  3. Do you think you have "procurred" CP if you have viewed it on the computer? (went to porn sites and watched videos or searched images)

Many years ago I was doing an internet search with the keyword calmodulin.  I clicked on an innocent seeming link and wound up at a hard core lesbian porn site.  How does one get lesbian porn from calmodulin?  I have no clue.  It may have been a legal act but it was totally unintentional.  If you really believe you can never end up where you did not want to go in the internet you are as others have said... naive.



2012-05-11 10:59 AM
in reply to: #4204542

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
trinnas - 2012-05-11 8:56 AM
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-11 10:35 AM

DanielG - 2012-05-11 7:19 AM Tell ya what, I come here to play around a bit and get away from garbage like this. Enjoy the thread and the day.

I understand, because you work around it, but for the rest of us, I believe this is a good conversation to have.  IMO - this ruling was ridiculous and people should be ticked off about this.  

If there is any good to come out of this, it's that the NY legislature is taking action to correct this. Hopefully other states who don't currently have proper wording in their laws will be proactive and do the same.  I do agree that it is the job of the courts to interpret the law, and not make the law.  

The original point and question of this thread was "How can they not think that viewing CP is facilitating" the child porn industry?"  I wanted to know if people think that simply viewing child porn "facilitates" the industry.  

Left brain brought up a good point, and another question that is very closely related.  How can these judges not think that "viewing" the CP is procuring it because one can not "passively" view anything on their computer?

I would like to hear peoples opinions on these 3 questions.

  1. Do you think viewing CP facilitates the CP industry?
  2. Can you passively view CP on your computer?
  3. Do you think you have "procurred" CP if you have viewed it on the computer? (went to porn sites and watched videos or searched images)

Many years ago I was doing an internet search with the keyword calmodulin.  I clicked on an innocent seeming link and wound up at a hard core lesbian porn site.  How does one get lesbian porn from calmodulin?  I have no clue.  It may have been a legal act but it was totally unintentional.  If you really believe you can never end up where you did not want to go in the internet you are as others have said... naive.

But was it a Child Porn Website?  I never said you can not accidentally end up on a LEGAL porn site.  I said people don't accidentally stumble upon CHILD PORNOGRAPHY.  



Edited by Muskrat37 2012-05-11 11:00 AM
2012-05-11 11:14 AM
in reply to: #4204551

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-11 11:59 AM
trinnas - 2012-05-11 8:56 AM
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-11 10:35 AM

DanielG - 2012-05-11 7:19 AM Tell ya what, I come here to play around a bit and get away from garbage like this. Enjoy the thread and the day.

I understand, because you work around it, but for the rest of us, I believe this is a good conversation to have.  IMO - this ruling was ridiculous and people should be ticked off about this.  

If there is any good to come out of this, it's that the NY legislature is taking action to correct this. Hopefully other states who don't currently have proper wording in their laws will be proactive and do the same.  I do agree that it is the job of the courts to interpret the law, and not make the law.  

The original point and question of this thread was "How can they not think that viewing CP is facilitating" the child porn industry?"  I wanted to know if people think that simply viewing child porn "facilitates" the industry.  

Left brain brought up a good point, and another question that is very closely related.  How can these judges not think that "viewing" the CP is procuring it because one can not "passively" view anything on their computer?

I would like to hear peoples opinions on these 3 questions.

  1. Do you think viewing CP facilitates the CP industry?
  2. Can you passively view CP on your computer?
  3. Do you think you have "procurred" CP if you have viewed it on the computer? (went to porn sites and watched videos or searched images)

Many years ago I was doing an internet search with the keyword calmodulin.  I clicked on an innocent seeming link and wound up at a hard core lesbian porn site.  How does one get lesbian porn from calmodulin?  I have no clue.  It may have been a legal act but it was totally unintentional.  If you really believe you can never end up where you did not want to go in the internet you are as others have said... naive.

But was it a Child Porn Website?  I never said you can not accidentally end up on a LEGAL porn site.  I said people don't accidentally stumble upon CHILD PORNOGRAPHY.  

So your belief is that it can never happen, really????  Because it has not happened to you?

2012-05-11 11:15 AM
in reply to: #4203534

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?
I want to complement the "accidental" child porn thought and question the true real-world impact... As a school psychologist, there is not much I have not seen or heard.... I have made the calls to police or child protective services, seen employees arrested, heard things in counseling that make you want to go full-on vigilante... I have personally never known or seen of a case of a perpetrator that just dabbles in that type of stuff.It is theoretically possible that I maybe wrong, but I suspect most of these cases are "all-in" with this.I also remember an interview with an undercover detective that said pedophile cases were the hardest to stay in character.He said that every other type of criminal has outside interests... You can talk sports, politics, something. He said that the pedo's, especially when they thought that they were like-minded company, could barely think or talk about anything other than their obsession.
2012-05-11 11:19 AM
in reply to: #4204598

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Subject: RE: Legal to watch Child Porn in New York - WTF?

eabeam - 2012-05-11 9:15 AM I want to complement the "accidental" child porn thought and question the true real-world impact... As a school psychologist, there is not much I have not seen or heard.... I have made the calls to police or child protective services, seen employees arrested, heard things in counseling that make you want to go full-on vigilante... I have personally never known or seen of a case of a perpetrator that just dabbles in that type of stuff.It is theoretically possible that I maybe wrong, but I suspect most of these cases are "all-in" with this.I also remember an interview with an undercover detective that said pedophile cases were the hardest to stay in character.He said that every other type of criminal has outside interests... You can talk sports, politics, something. He said that the pedo's, especially when they thought that they were like-minded company, could barely think or talk about anything other than their obsession.

Interesting feedback.  Scary also.  I don't know how you do your job - as a father, I don't know if I could prevent myself from going "full-on vigilante".  

Thanks for what you do, keep up the good work.  

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