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2012-07-31 12:27 PM

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Subject: Is this against the rules?

Did a tri Sunday (750m, 40k, 10k) as a relay.  Did the bike of course.

The race was not USAT, but it did have all the same rules in the race packet about not drafting, not using outside support for mechanicals, etc.  It didn't address the question that I will ask shortly, but I was wondering if maybe this is against the rules in a USAT race.

So male and female elites started in the first wave with M34 and under.  Second wave was 3 minutes later with all relay teams and another AG.  Once I'm on my bike, I know I'm going to be making my way up the field, and the only people that should beat me back to transition are the male elites.

After about 16 miles, I've passed most of the field, and am riding on my own for a long time.  Then in the distance I see two bikers ahead of me.  They're pretty much riding together, sometimes even side by side, but I can't actually tell if they are drafting.  Maybe they are legally leapfrogging each other?

Ok...so I slowly reel them in at about mile 20 and notice that they are pacing each other.  Riding legal...about 4-5 bike lengths.  However one of them is a male AGer, and the other is a female elite.  It's obvious they are working together because as the male pulls ahead, he is constantly looking back to make sure he isn't dropping her.

I eventually pass them, but it just looked strange.  That female ended up winning by about 4 minutes.  So...I know you are not supposed to pace other people on the run...but what about pacing another person on the bike?  Especially when they are a female elite.

Again...this was not a USAT race, and there was no specific rule against it, so I presume it was legal by default...but is it bad form?  Would it be legal in a USAT race?

edited for typos



Edited by tri808 2012-07-31 12:33 PM


2012-07-31 12:39 PM
in reply to: #4339306

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Resident Curmudgeon
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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?
No, if your assessment is correct it is not legal, there is a specific prohibition against participants working together. It would be a judgment call on behalf of the official.

Edited by the bear 2012-07-31 12:48 PM
2012-07-31 12:42 PM
in reply to: #4339306

Master
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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?
If they weren't drafting or blocking, then they can pace off any competitor they want.  I think you're sort of making an assumption on why he was looking back, but it could be any number of reasons.
2012-07-31 12:47 PM
in reply to: #4339306

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?
5.10 Position Fouls. In accordance with the Rules as set forth in this section, a participant is not permitted to position his bicycle in the proximity of another moving vehicle so as to benefit from reduced air resistance. While on the cycling course, participants shall not work together to improve performance, efficiency, or position by teamwork or other joint conduct. A variable time penalty shall be imposed for any violation of this section. This section shall not apply to off-road triathlons and duathlons and shall be excluded from enforcement at those events.

The issue with this is that an official has to be there who not only witnesses the foul but is also confident enough in what they witnessed to assess the penalty.

Shane
2012-07-31 1:00 PM
in reply to: #4339355

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Master
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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

gsmacleod - 2012-07-31 1:47 PM 5.10 Position Fouls. In accordance with the Rules as set forth in this section, a participant is not permitted to position his bicycle in the proximity of another moving vehicle so as to benefit from reduced air resistance. While on the cycling course, participants shall not work together to improve performance, efficiency, or position by teamwork or other joint conduct.

Maybe they are legally leapfrogging each other? 

There is no legal leapfrogging as describe in 5.10 it is a postional foul.  You can slingshot off a biker but to leapfrog back and forth with a buddy is not legal see bold

2012-07-31 1:04 PM
in reply to: #4339336

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

spudone - 2012-07-31 7:42 AM If they weren't drafting or blocking, then they can pace off any competitor they want.  I think you're sort of making an assumption on why he was looking back, but it could be any number of reasons.

It took me about 5-6 minutes from the first time I saw them in the distance to when I actually passed.  So I was watching them for a while.  They traded places several times...but like I said they were staying legal, so I thought it was just two guys legally riding together.  It wasn't till I got closer, did I realize it was a male AGer and female elite.  And it was pretty obvious he was slowing down as he looked back a couple of times.  Especially when he stopped pedaling for a while. 

 



2012-07-31 1:08 PM
in reply to: #4339306

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

I was gearing my question about a male competitor working together with a female elite.  I didn't think the rules also applied when working together with competitors in your division.  That was new to me.

That being said...don't the pros work together in big races like Kona?  Such as Macca openly making alliances against Crowie in 2010?  Is that different?

2012-07-31 1:20 PM
in reply to: #4339420


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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?
tri808 - 2012-07-31 1:08 PM

I was gearing my question about a male competitor working together with a female elite.  I didn't think the rules also applied when working together with competitors in your division.  That was new to me.

That being said...don't the pros work together in big races like Kona?  Such as Macca openly making alliances against Crowie in 2010?  Is that different?

 

The pros most definitely do work together - they're well aware of the residual draft effects even if you're 3+ bike lengths back. However, I've never heard or seen of them doing repeated 'slingshot' passing as you mentioned, which sound like it would be fair ground for a penalty. Most of the pros settle into a long line, with ample spacing if they're coordinating effort to some degree, often done impromptu (but sometimes not, like dropping Craig Alexander in the past.)

2012-07-31 1:42 PM
in reply to: #4339306

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

And it was pretty obvious he was slowing down as he looked back a couple of times.  Especially when he stopped pedaling for a while.

Yeah but what I meant was there's a difference between cruising by and then sitting up, versus trying to drop her, then looking back, realizing she sped up and then you're gassed.

2012-07-31 1:50 PM
in reply to: #4339491

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?
Was the elite woman an amateur or pro?   At a USAT race, the "Elite" or pro card holders must also stagger in addition to the normal drafting drop back.  Although maybe that's only with other pros and not AGers.  Complicated!
2012-07-31 1:53 PM
in reply to: #4339306

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

I don't know if this defines leapfrogging, but I've been in a situation in which I was biking at almost the same speed as another girl.  I would approach her and get close enough that I knew I had to pass or slow down.  I'm not going to slow to a pace less that feels less than all of my effort in a sprint so I began the pass.  But since she was going just about the same speed, it gassed me out a bit to finish the pass.  Then she would be in the same position as I, become able to pass, pass me and gas out a little.  We never followed close enough to illegally draft but when you're approaching anyone from behind you have to draft for some small amount of time in order to pass them.

So what do you do in that situation to not hold yourself back, yet still comply with the rules?



2014-01-14 7:09 AM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?
Since when can't you pace others on the run? There is no rule about running with other competitors during a race. You cannot be paced by receiving outside assistance, meaning someone not entered in the race cannot pace you, but you certainly can run next to other competitors.

As for the slingshot passing, as long as the person being passed drops out of the draft zone before repassing the person on the bike, there is no infraction. Once you are passed you are responsible for falling back to a legal distance within 20 seconds. Once you drop back to that distance, you can then pass the person back. Not dropping back and repassing is an "overtaken penalty." It is not a time added penalty at WTC races, but rather it is a stop and go penalty (or a yellow card). The only time added penalties (red cards) are drafting and blatant littering.
2014-01-14 9:54 AM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

Didn't WTC put something in place over a year ago to address this? IIRC it was around the time those Belgian brothers were qualifying for Kona, well one was trying to and the brother that already had KQd was pacing him on the bike. Kind of around the time the female pro was busted for her former pro turned AG bf blatantly pacing her on the bike. WTC pulled the splits and knocked her for it.

 

What do the rest of the bike and run splits look like for these two? Did he drop after the bike, run with her too, something else? Could also just be the case of a male with too big an ego and not a big enough engine not wanting to get chicked. 

2014-01-14 10:18 AM
in reply to: thebigb

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

Jason, how about an update since it's been a year and a half?

2014-01-14 10:28 AM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?
I've never read the USAT regs, just the pre-race summary. What specifically is the prohibition against pacing on the run?
2014-01-14 10:37 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

Originally posted by brigby1

Jason, how about an update since it's been a year and a half?

Curses! Dang thread resurrection! 



2014-01-14 12:30 PM
in reply to: noelle1230


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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?
Originally posted by noelle1230

I don't know if this defines leapfrogging, but I've been in a situation in which I was biking at almost the same speed as another girl.  I would approach her and get close enough that I knew I had to pass or slow down.  I'm not going to slow to a pace less that feels less than all of my effort in a sprint so I began the pass.  But since she was going just about the same speed, it gassed me out a bit to finish the pass.  Then she would be in the same position as I, become able to pass, pass me and gas out a little.  We never followed close enough to illegally draft but when you're approaching anyone from behind you have to draft for some small amount of time in order to pass them.

So what do you do in that situation to not hold yourself back, yet still comply with the rules?




I know this is an old thread, but I had this exact problem in my last race. What should I do if I encounter this same problem in the future?
2014-01-14 12:40 PM
in reply to: StephanieM

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

Originally posted by StephanieM
Originally posted by noelle1230

I don't know if this defines leapfrogging, but I've been in a situation in which I was biking at almost the same speed as another girl.  I would approach her and get close enough that I knew I had to pass or slow down.  I'm not going to slow to a pace less that feels less than all of my effort in a sprint so I began the pass.  But since she was going just about the same speed, it gassed me out a bit to finish the pass.  Then she would be in the same position as I, become able to pass, pass me and gas out a little.  We never followed close enough to illegally draft but when you're approaching anyone from behind you have to draft for some small amount of time in order to pass them.

So what do you do in that situation to not hold yourself back, yet still comply with the rules?

I know this is an old thread, but I had this exact problem in my last race. What should I do if I encounter this same problem in the future?

I think the key is you need to pass AND maintain the normal riding speed when you're done passing.  That takes some mental exertion.    It's human nature to put forth a good effort to pass and then want to rest a little bit, which allows the passed person to catch up.  If you slow down from passing speed, but don't dip into a slower-than-normal speed, you shouldn't see the person again.

If you're truly the same pace, then just accept that you will need to ride right behind the person (outside the draft zone).  It feels like you're slowing yourself down, but you're not.  I think your brain says "Hey, they are right there, pass them...".     Pacing someone also makes the effort feel easier.   Another options is staying there for a few minutes and build up the energy to do a solid pass. 

If you really are a tiny bit faster, then gassing yourself for a short time to ride clear of the other ride is the best thing to do.  If they then decide they should be riding faster, and catch up to you, that's their problem.    This usually happens to me once or twice a race, but a few good solid paces takes care of it (*see my first paragraph too!).

 

2014-01-14 12:44 PM
in reply to: StephanieM

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

Originally posted by StephanieM
Originally posted by noelle1230

I don't know if this defines leapfrogging, but I've been in a situation in which I was biking at almost the same speed as another girl.  I would approach her and get close enough that I knew I had to pass or slow down.  I'm not going to slow to a pace less that feels less than all of my effort in a sprint so I began the pass.  But since she was going just about the same speed, it gassed me out a bit to finish the pass.  Then she would be in the same position as I, become able to pass, pass me and gas out a little.  We never followed close enough to illegally draft but when you're approaching anyone from behind you have to draft for some small amount of time in order to pass them.

So what do you do in that situation to not hold yourself back, yet still comply with the rules?

I know this is an old thread, but I had this exact problem in my last race. What should I do if I encounter this same problem in the future?

During the race, if you're sure making such a pass will leave you gassed, then consider recovering a little by slowing down for a minute before making such a pass. In training ahead of time, try to do an occasional sprint/harder effort while already going hard so you can work on recovering while continuing to go hard afterward. This shouldn't take that much to do, so no need to rewrite your training.

2014-01-14 1:16 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

Originally posted by brigby1

Jason, how about an update since it's been a year and a half?

LOL...I did the race again in 2013, this time doing the whole thing instead of the relay.  Got to start in the first wave (still M34 and under) so I did end up passing all the female elites (they all beat me out of the water) on the bike and didn't see anyone working together.  Then got off the bike in 5th overall and then got my azz handed to me on the run...as expected.  None of the female elites who passed me on the run seemed to be paced by anyone.

As for the situation last year...in hindsight, I know what I saw.  I'm 100% sure it was a blatant attempt to work together.  Guys who ride 1:03-05 in an Oly don't coast several times because they got tired after a pass...nor do they look back to see if someone is behind them.  Maybe guys who ride 1:15-1:30 do...but not the pointy end...they just don't.

As for leapfrogging without intention to work together...it happened a lot at Kona when I got to race last year.  The rolling nature of the course meant that the lighter guys could climb the rollers faster, and the heavy guys would descend faster.  Most of the other courses I race are pretty flat with short steep climbs so it doesn't happen as often.

2014-01-14 1:42 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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2014-01-14 1:50 PM
in reply to: Fred D

Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

Originally posted by Fred D

Love ghost threads

Haha, I opened it thinking "what the heck is Jason doing racing in January????"

2014-01-14 1:52 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Fred D

Love ghost threads

Haha, I opened it thinking "what the heck is Jason doing racing in January????"

You make like the weather isn't good enough here to race...

That said...there aren't any tris in January here...so you win.  

2014-01-14 2:06 PM
in reply to: Jason N

Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Fred D

Love ghost threads

Haha, I opened it thinking "what the heck is Jason doing racing in January????"

You make like the weather isn't good enough here to race...

That said...there aren't any tris in January here...so you win.  

Well I was going to also say, "even though he could because it's not cold there," but that was getting into a whole other thing, so it was more of simply it wasn't tri season, even in paradise.

OR you were doign secret racing

2014-01-15 12:07 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Is this against the rules?

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by brigby1

Jason, how about an update since it's been a year and a half?

LOL...I did the race again in 2013, this time doing the whole thing instead of the relay.  Got to start in the first wave (still M34 and under) so I did end up passing all the female elites (they all beat me out of the water) on the bike and didn't see anyone working together.  Then got off the bike in 5th overall and then got my azz handed to me on the run...as expected.  None of the female elites who passed me on the run seemed to be paced by anyone.

As for the situation last year...in hindsight, I know what I saw.  I'm 100% sure it was a blatant attempt to work together.  Guys who ride 1:03-05 in an Oly don't coast several times because they got tired after a pass...nor do they look back to see if someone is behind them.  Maybe guys who ride 1:15-1:30 do...but not the pointy end...they just don't.

As for leapfrogging without intention to work together...it happened a lot at Kona when I got to race last year.  The rolling nature of the course meant that the lighter guys could climb the rollers faster, and the heavy guys would descend faster.  Most of the other courses I race are pretty flat with short steep climbs so it doesn't happen as often.

Hey, rule fun for everyone! Considering that there have been some notable incidents of this nature calling a closer look at the rules ... timely.

As Shane pointed out:

5.10 Position Fouls.

In accordance with the Rules as set forth in this section, a participant is not permitted to position his bicycle in the proximity of another moving vehicle so as to benefit from reduced air resistance. While on the cycling course, participants shall not work together to improve performance, efficiency, or position by teamwork or other joint conduct. A variable time penalty shall be imposed for any violation of this section.

This rule came to the test in the case of Lisa Hütthaler, an Austrian pro, at Miami 70.3 a few months ago, who worked with Andy Fuchs, a male pro, for bike pacing. While reports from other pros and photographic and timing data confirmed this, because no official had directly witnessed and and made the call (also as Shane pointed out, the difficulty with enforcing this rule), Hütthaler was not penalized.

However, WTC did make clear that this did constitute a violation, and especially so with pros/elites (see 5.10A below), and would be penalized where possible in the future. USAT confirmed and added that it also violated 3.4. (d):

d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon.

5.10A Position Fouls. Rule for Elites

(a) Drafting. Except as otherwise provided in these Rules, while on the cycling course, no participant shall permit his drafting zone to intersect with or remain intersected with the drafting zone of a leading participant or that of a motor vehicle. With respect to a motor vehicle (including authorized race vehicles); it is the athlete’s responsibility to continually communicate to the vehicle to move away.

 (b) Definition of Drafting Zone. The term "drafting zone" shall refer to a rectangular area ten (10) meters long and two (2) meters wide surrounding each bicycle. The longer sides of the zone begin at the leading edge of the front wheel and run backward parallel to the bicycle; the front wheel divides the short side of the zone into two equal parts. With respect to a moving motor vehicle, the "drafting zone" is a rectangular area extending one meter to each side of the vehicle and fifteen (15) meters behind the vehicle.

(c) Exceptions. A participant may enter the drafting zone without penalty only pursuant to the following exceptions:

(1) When entering the drafting zone from the rear, closing the gap, and overtaking all within no more than 15 seconds; or

(2) When cyclists reduce speed for safety reasons, for course blockage, for an aid station, for an emergency, when entering or exiting a transition area, or when making a turn of 90 degrees or more.

(d) Position on Course/Right-of-Way. Except as otherwise provided in these Rules, a participant is generally entitled to assume any otherwise proper location on the cycling course provided that the participant arrives in position first without contacting another participant.

(e) Staggered Positioning. All cyclists must assume and maintain a staggered riding position relative to the cyclist directly ahead; no cyclist may maintain a position on the course directly in line with a cyclist directly ahead. This staggered position must be maintained even if the cyclist is outside of the drafting zone and following at a distance of greater than ten (10) meters.

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