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2012-09-13 6:51 AM

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Subject: Running Guidance Needed

I am a 47 year old male, longstanding cyclist.  

I started running just 7 months ago, and gradually have built up my ability to where it is now, which I think is MOP for short (5k-10k) runs.

However, I seem to have plateaued in my running ability.

I currently can "cruise all day" at around 9:00 miles, conversational pace.  My typical run pace is somewhere between 8 and 8:30 miles.  I have not run an event for several months but my race pace for the 5K portion of my sprint tri earlier this season was 7:30.

Anyway, I am running 3x/week, typically 5 miles or so per run.    

My goals are to continue to run but to increase, if possible, my speed...but I also want to minimize injury.

I am wondering if I should just be satisfied with my progress and continue to go out and run 8 minute miles for 40 minutes 3x/week...or if I should start to incorporate some real interval/fartlek training into my regimen.

I know it's hard to give solid advice, but I am wondering if it's "safe" to do this at this stage in my running.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?

In case anyone cares, here is my run from this morning and I think it's a pretty typical run for me these days.

http://app.strava.com/runs/21811022



Edited by datlas 2012-09-13 6:52 AM


2012-09-13 7:24 AM
in reply to: #4408877

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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed
Your best bet is going to be to run more frequently.  Start by adding a 4th day.  In a few weeks, add a 5th.  Maybe a 6th if you can manage it.  When you add a day, make it a short one or even cut back the distance of another run to make sure you aren't adding too much volume overall.  When you are running 5x/wk, a couple should be relatively short (maybe ~3mi), a couple medium (~6mi) and one longer (~10mi).  Most of that running should be at your same "cruise all day" pace.  But adding a few strides (maybe during or after one of the short days) can be done.  Once you've been doing all that for about a month or so (and feeling good), then start looking at adding some tempo running once a week or so.  Swap that for a some hill running once in awhile.  And enter a local 5k or 10k every now and then to really push yourself.  Over time, move up the distances of 'short', 'medium' and 'long'.  Report back in a year.
2012-09-13 7:59 AM
in reply to: #4408877

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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed

Thanks for the suggestion above.

I don't know if I can run more than 3 or at most 4 times/week, given my family, work, and cycling "needs."

Let's assume I can carve out 30-50 minutes 3 (or at most 4) times/week for running...

2012-09-13 8:46 AM
in reply to: #4408877

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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed

I think you hit it when you said to add some interval training into your runs, another is to run hills ( disguised Speed work), what helped me was doing 100yd sprint repeats and hills, 400 M intervals were just too much for me to go all out right away even the 100yd sprints were a bit much at first, so yea go at it slowly but definately add some speed work into your training just add it slowly.

Another thing that helped me a lot was I started running trails a lot, you need to be much more phisically fit to run trails properly then running on the road especially in the lower leg, ankles, & balance, you won't generally be running as fast but its usually a higher level effort workout, kinda like the differance between going out on your road Bike on a flat course Vs a run out on the mountain bike over some woodland trails.

Plus the scenery is genarally a lot better.



Edited by RRH_88 2012-09-13 8:54 AM
2012-09-13 8:54 AM
in reply to: #4408974

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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed
datlas - 2012-09-13 8:59 AM

Thanks for the suggestion above.

I don't know if I can run more than 3 or at most 4 times/week, given my family, work, and cycling "needs."

Let's assume I can carve out 30-50 minutes 3 (or at most 4) times/week for running...

Then your rate of progress will be constrained and you'll have to be satisfied with small improvements you can make from here by maintaining consistency for a long time. Certainly add some strides to your routine.  And vary your pace a little bit on your runs, but be very cautious with adding very much interval speed work.  You're not likely to develop much durability (at your current weekly mileage) for that type of training for at least several years.

2012-09-13 9:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed
Wow, that sounds like great progress. I agree with the others about running more often. I'm getting ready for Disney Marathon in January and doing the same thing- my plan calls for more frequent runs than in TRI training alone.  Volume will help with speed and eventually, some interval type running can help as well. Remember, run easy often, sometimes hard.


2012-09-13 12:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed

JohnnyKay - 2012-09-13 8:24 AM Your best bet is going to be to run more frequently.  Start by adding a 4th day.  In a few weeks, add a 5th.  Maybe a 6th if you can manage it.  When you add a day, make it a short one or even cut back the distance of another run to make sure you aren't adding too much volume overall.  When you are running 5x/wk, a couple should be relatively short (maybe ~3mi), a couple medium (~6mi) and one longer (~10mi).  Most of that running should be at your same "cruise all day" pace.  But adding a few strides (maybe during or after one of the short days) can be done.  Once you've been doing all that for about a month or so (and feeling good), then start looking at adding some tempo running once a week or so.  Swap that for a some hill running once in awhile.  And enter a local 5k or 10k every now and then to really push yourself.  Over time, move up the distances of 'short', 'medium' and 'long'.  Report back in a year.

I agree with this.  The only place I differ slightly is that I feel it's ok to add in a limited amount of intensity now.  I'm assuming by "tempo run" that you mean HR zone 3, JK?  Considering the OP's base of 7 months, 9:00/mi conversational pace, and assuming he has no injury history, he could add a 4th run today of about 30 minutes in length with 15 minutes in the middle at a zone 3 (tempo) effort, and gradually build from there as you suggest.

2012-09-13 12:34 PM
in reply to: #4409591

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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed
TriMyBest - 2012-09-13 1:08 PM

JohnnyKay - 2012-09-13 8:24 AM Your best bet is going to be to run more frequently.  Start by adding a 4th day.  In a few weeks, add a 5th.  Maybe a 6th if you can manage it.  When you add a day, make it a short one or even cut back the distance of another run to make sure you aren't adding too much volume overall.  When you are running 5x/wk, a couple should be relatively short (maybe ~3mi), a couple medium (~6mi) and one longer (~10mi).  Most of that running should be at your same "cruise all day" pace.  But adding a few strides (maybe during or after one of the short days) can be done.  Once you've been doing all that for about a month or so (and feeling good), then start looking at adding some tempo running once a week or so.  Swap that for a some hill running once in awhile.  And enter a local 5k or 10k every now and then to really push yourself.  Over time, move up the distances of 'short', 'medium' and 'long'.  Report back in a year.

I agree with this.  The only place I differ slightly is that I feel it's ok to add in a limited amount of intensity now.  I'm assuming by "tempo run" that you mean HR zone 3, JK?  Considering the OP's base of 7 months, 9:00/mi conversational pace, and assuming he has no injury history, he could add a 4th run today of about 30 minutes in length with 15 minutes in the middle at a zone 3 (tempo) effort, and gradually build from there as you suggest.

I wouldn't do that.  Say he's running 15mpw.  You're suggesting that he run another 3-4mi with 1-2 of those miles at a harder pace?  That's a pretty big jump (more than 20% in load).  If he's set on maintaining his current volume, then making 10-15min of that tempo running might make some sense.  If he is willing to build his volume, then add the 4th day of running.  But I wouldn't add the tempo until 'leveling' out at that higher base for a couple weeks.

2012-09-13 12:37 PM
in reply to: #4408928

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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed

JohnnyKay - 2012-09-13 6:24 AM Your best bet is going to be to run more frequently.  Start by adding a 4th day.  In a few weeks, add a 5th.  Maybe a 6th if you can manage it.  When you add a day, make it a short one or even cut back the distance of another run to make sure you aren't adding too much volume overall.  When you are running 5x/wk, a couple should be relatively short (maybe ~3mi), a couple medium (~6mi) and one longer (~10mi).  Most of that running should be at your same "cruise all day" pace.  But adding a few strides (maybe during or after one of the short days) can be done.  Once you've been doing all that for about a month or so (and feeling good), then start looking at adding some tempo running once a week or so.  Swap that for a some hill running once in awhile.  And enter a local 5k or 10k every now and then to really push yourself.  Over time, move up the distances of 'short', 'medium' and 'long'.  Report back in a year.

I agree.  Two things that will make you faster are adding volume and adding variety to your running.  Even though you said that you cannot add any more time to running try to find time, I run at 5AM and sometimes in the late evening.  Higher volume will help you gain you better form and endurance which will translate to speed.  

Also mixing it up will help, my favorite type of fast run is the Tempo.  even a short 5 mile Tempo with three miles at 5-10KP will help.  Tempo runs and Speedwork/intervals will train your body to maintain a higher speed in races.  I also try to run hills on a weekly basis (it is hard to avoid hill where I live), hills will make you stronger in that they are speedwork in disguise. 

My typical run week is 5-6 days with the following.

1 - Slow Recovery Run (no watch)

2 - General Aerobic Pace (short)

3 - Mid distance run with hills

4 - Tempo

5 - Slow Recovery Run

6 - Long Run (1/3 of weekly total)

2012-09-13 12:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed

As others have said, I would simply add another run or two a week for now, keeping them on the very short side at first.

Try to do all of your runs at varied speeds and distances.

Later, once you have gotten used to the increased frequency and mileage you can start thinking about a hill session and then maybe speed-work down the road. 

For now though, I think simply increasing the frequency and volume will break you through the plateau. 

2012-09-13 12:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed
JohnnyKay - 2012-09-13 1:34 PM
TriMyBest - 2012-09-13 1:08 PM

JohnnyKay - 2012-09-13 8:24 AM Your best bet is going to be to run more frequently.  Start by adding a 4th day.  In a few weeks, add a 5th.  Maybe a 6th if you can manage it.  When you add a day, make it a short one or even cut back the distance of another run to make sure you aren't adding too much volume overall.  When you are running 5x/wk, a couple should be relatively short (maybe ~3mi), a couple medium (~6mi) and one longer (~10mi).  Most of that running should be at your same "cruise all day" pace.  But adding a few strides (maybe during or after one of the short days) can be done.  Once you've been doing all that for about a month or so (and feeling good), then start looking at adding some tempo running once a week or so.  Swap that for a some hill running once in awhile.  And enter a local 5k or 10k every now and then to really push yourself.  Over time, move up the distances of 'short', 'medium' and 'long'.  Report back in a year.

I agree with this.  The only place I differ slightly is that I feel it's ok to add in a limited amount of intensity now.  I'm assuming by "tempo run" that you mean HR zone 3, JK?  Considering the OP's base of 7 months, 9:00/mi conversational pace, and assuming he has no injury history, he could add a 4th run today of about 30 minutes in length with 15 minutes in the middle at a zone 3 (tempo) effort, and gradually build from there as you suggest.

I wouldn't do that.  Say he's running 15mpw.  You're suggesting that he run another 3-4mi with 1-2 of those miles at a harder pace?  That's a pretty big jump (more than 20% in load).  If he's set on maintaining his current volume, then making 10-15min of that tempo running might make some sense.  If he is willing to build his volume, then add the 4th day of running.  But I wouldn't add the tempo until 'leveling' out at that higher base for a couple weeks.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear.  I would also reduce the other run durations as you suggested to maintain about the same weekly volume.  The only immediate changes would only be increasing the number of runs by 1 and increasing the intensity of 15 minutes of the total volume from zone 2 to zone 3.

ETA:  The net result is an increase in weekly training load, but that load is spread over more days allowing better recovery, and without increasing the total training hours per week.



Edited by TriMyBest 2012-09-13 12:45 PM


2012-09-13 12:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed
datlas - 2012-09-13 7:59 AM

Thanks for the suggestion above.

I don't know if I can run more than 3 or at most 4 times/week, given my family, work, and cycling "needs."

Let's assume I can carve out 30-50 minutes 3 (or at most 4) times/week for running...

Sorry, I didn't catch that part.

Really try to add that 4th and maybe even 5th run. It doesn't have to even be 30 minutes. 

2012-09-13 12:48 PM
in reply to: #4408877

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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed

I appreciate the comments.

I certainly will try to add in a 4th and 5th run into my weekly routine.

But it won't be easy....in the meantime I am in no rush so won't go overboard on the intervals.  My usual run (see link) does have a small uphill at the end, so if I am feeling well I do try to go for the burn, it's only about 300m so I am not overdoing it.

2012-09-13 1:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed
datlas - 2012-09-13 7:51 AM

I am a 47 year old male, longstanding cyclist.  

I started running just 7 months ago, and gradually have built up my ability to where it is now, which I think is MOP for short (5k-10k) runs.

However, I seem to have plateaued in my running ability.

I currently can "cruise all day" at around 9:00 miles, conversational pace.  My typical run pace is somewhere between 8 and 8:30 miles.  I have not run an event for several months but my race pace for the 5K portion of my sprint tri earlier this season was 7:30.

Anyway, I am running 3x/week, typically 5 miles or so per run.    

My goals are to continue to run but to increase, if possible, my speed...but I also want to minimize injury.

I am wondering if I should just be satisfied with my progress and continue to go out and run 8 minute miles for 40 minutes 3x/week...or if I should start to incorporate some real interval/fartlek training into my regimen.

I know it's hard to give solid advice, but I am wondering if it's "safe" to do this at this stage in my running.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?

In case anyone cares, here is my run from this morning and I think it's a pretty typical run for me these days.

http://app.strava.com/runs/21811022

The bold above was exactly me about 3-4 years ago.  Instead of adding more volume which I couldn't do since running had to share my week with several other fitness activities, I just changed one of my run days to a speedwork day.  I had been running for about a year prior to this so it was my first try at speedwork.  I did a really simple plan of

5-10 minutes of warm up

Alternate this 7-8 times:

2 minutes of sprint (for me, 5-10 beats above threshold or what I would describe as 90-95% of max if using perceived exertion);

2 minutes of active recovery (comfortable pace similar to warm up pace)

5 minutes of cool down

Within 6 months, this bumped my race pace down considerably.  I went from an 8:30ish half mary pace to a 7:45 and my sprint tri run pace went from about 8 to 7:10 at its best.

That's just what worked for me!

 

2012-09-13 1:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed
noelle1230 - 2012-09-13 2:21 PM
datlas - 2012-09-13 7:51 AM

I am a 47 year old male, longstanding cyclist.  

I started running just 7 months ago, and gradually have built up my ability to where it is now, which I think is MOP for short (5k-10k) runs.

However, I seem to have plateaued in my running ability.

I currently can "cruise all day" at around 9:00 miles, conversational pace.  My typical run pace is somewhere between 8 and 8:30 miles.  I have not run an event for several months but my race pace for the 5K portion of my sprint tri earlier this season was 7:30.

Anyway, I am running 3x/week, typically 5 miles or so per run.    

My goals are to continue to run but to increase, if possible, my speed...but I also want to minimize injury.

I am wondering if I should just be satisfied with my progress and continue to go out and run 8 minute miles for 40 minutes 3x/week...or if I should start to incorporate some real interval/fartlek training into my regimen.

I know it's hard to give solid advice, but I am wondering if it's "safe" to do this at this stage in my running.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?

In case anyone cares, here is my run from this morning and I think it's a pretty typical run for me these days.

http://app.strava.com/runs/21811022

The bold above was exactly me about 3-4 years ago.  Instead of adding more volume which I couldn't do since running had to share my week with several other fitness activities, I just changed one of my run days to a speedwork day.  I had been running for about a year prior to this so it was my first try at speedwork.  I did a really simple plan of

5-10 minutes of warm up

Alternate this 7-8 times:

2 minutes of sprint (for me, 5-10 beats above threshold or what I would describe as 90-95% of max if using perceived exertion);

2 minutes of active recovery (comfortable pace similar to warm up pace)

5 minutes of cool down

Within 6 months, this bumped my race pace down considerably.  I went from an 8:30ish half mary pace to a 7:45 and my sprint tri run pace went from about 8 to 7:10 at its best.

That's just what worked for me!

 

I also found that having one run with 'intensity' was a big helper on improving speed - i personally found tempo work fairly easy to add and gave me a solid return on investment when I was doing them consistently. 

2012-09-13 1:45 PM
in reply to: #4409787

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Subject: RE: Running Guidance Needed
noelle1230 - 2012-09-13 2:21 PM[

The bold above was exactly me about 3-4 years ago.  Instead of adding more volume which I couldn't do since running had to share my week with several other fitness activities, I just changed one of my run days to a speedwork day.  I had been running for about a year prior to this so it was my first try at speedwork.  I did a really simple plan of

5-10 minutes of warm up

Alternate this 7-8 times:

2 minutes of sprint (for me, 5-10 beats above threshold or what I would describe as 90-95% of max if using perceived exertion);

2 minutes of active recovery (comfortable pace similar to warm up pace)

5 minutes of cool down

Within 6 months, this bumped my race pace down considerably.  I went from an 8:30ish half mary pace to a 7:45 and my sprint tri run pace went from about 8 to 7:10 at its best.

That's just what worked for me!

 

+1 to that. If you want to run faster you should... run faster. Considering you're a long time cyclist, your aerobic base is pretty good. It also seems like your training has become a same speed, same distance rut. If you can, try doing a longer slow run and some speed work, maybe every other week. As always, ease into it to reduce the risk of injury. For speed work try starting with some fartleks, then work in to hills, and eventually some track work (400-1600m repeats).

McMillan running calculator is a good way to determine training paces.



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