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2012-12-18 3:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight

 mango6383 Posted: 2012-12-18 1:24 PM

"Agree with the sentiment that people tend to make poor choices, but you are implying that Starbucks and Jamba Juice are not fast food places.  They are, in disguise, and this is part of the problem.  America was a lot thinner when we cooked the majority of our food at home."

Point well taken.  My friend thinks his Jamba Juice choice is better than McDs or Taco Bell.  Same bad habit in a more politically correct wrapper. 

I remember a while back reading an article about Subway.  They updated thier menu to healthier sandwiches and then launched the 5 Footlong promo.  Most customers upgraded to the larger size completely negating the calorie savings of the better ingredients.

My weight loss is a combination of a lot of things and one of them absolutely is me preparing my own meals.  Better choices, portion control, no preservatives added.  Thanks for the clarification.



Edited by Stuartap 2012-12-18 3:40 PM


2012-12-18 3:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight
Stuartap - 2012-12-18 10:36 AM
TriMike - 2012-12-18 5:14 AM

La Tortuga - 2012-12-17 1:51 PM IMO we need more media attention to the obesity epidemic and it's cures and preventions.  It's still non-PC to tell someone they're over weight.  We need to start looking at overweight and obesity the same as we do tobacco use.

Absolutely...

The only caveat to that is many people truly don't understand what they're putting in their bodies...They know they're overweight but have no idea just how many bad calories they are putting in their bodies..

Until large food manufacturers and the fast food industry make healthy food as affordable as the heat and serve crap we as a nation as pounding down, I'm afraid obesity rates won't go down much if at all....

I personally struggle to get to my desired race weight because my appetite (even with good foods) exceeds my calories burned so I need to accept feeling hungry or less than satisfied in order to lose the necessary pounds..

I hope you don't mind a dissenting opinion here.  Your premise of people not knowing how many calories they are consuming is spot on but blaming the fast food industry is looking at the wrong party to lay blame.

As with your final paragraph I was 70# over weight for over a decade and the only person to blame is ME.  I never ate much at fast food places and as odd as it sounds, I have never eaten at McDonalds in my 57 years.  I simply ate too much.  Most fast food places do have healthier items on the menu but people choose poorly.

I have a friend who decided to avoid fast food places.  So now his favorite thing is a Jamba Juice large Peanut Butter Mood (770 calories)!  I wonder why he can't seem to lose weight?  Or how about we drop by Starbucks for a little holiday cheer of a vendi Eggnog Latte (610 calories).  FYI - a cheesburger and fries from McD's is only 530 calories.

You and I have both taken responsibility for what we put in our bodies and the results are ours to own, good and bad.  Blaming fast food places is too easy an excuse for people who need to look in the mirror first.  Example - No one could ever get killed by a speeding car if only car manufacturers would stop making cars that went faster than 65 MPH.  Ok, I will step off my soapbox now. Embarassed

 

I respectfully disagree.  Watch the movie "Supersize Me" and then let's talk some more.  Take a look at the dollar menu of the fast food burger places....Very little if anything that is remotely healthy...

I believe fast food restaurants (and big food manufacturers) are to blame.  Turn on the TV and count how many McDonald's, BK and Wendy's ads are on.....

I agree that we as individuals ultimately own our experience however for many people the easy and affordable route is crap food...

And I haven't even talked about the processed food you just zap in the microwave or heat in the oven...

2012-12-18 5:24 PM
in reply to: #4540218

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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight
TriMike - 2012-12-18 1:49 PM
Stuartap - 2012-12-18 10:36 AM
TriMike - 2012-12-18 5:14 AM

La Tortuga - 2012-12-17 1:51 PM IMO we need more media attention to the obesity epidemic and it's cures and preventions.  It's still non-PC to tell someone they're over weight.  We need to start looking at overweight and obesity the same as we do tobacco use.

Absolutely...

The only caveat to that is many people truly don't understand what they're putting in their bodies...They know they're overweight but have no idea just how many bad calories they are putting in their bodies..

Until large food manufacturers and the fast food industry make healthy food as affordable as the heat and serve crap we as a nation as pounding down, I'm afraid obesity rates won't go down much if at all....

I personally struggle to get to my desired race weight because my appetite (even with good foods) exceeds my calories burned so I need to accept feeling hungry or less than satisfied in order to lose the necessary pounds..

I hope you don't mind a dissenting opinion here.  Your premise of people not knowing how many calories they are consuming is spot on but blaming the fast food industry is looking at the wrong party to lay blame.

As with your final paragraph I was 70# over weight for over a decade and the only person to blame is ME.  I never ate much at fast food places and as odd as it sounds, I have never eaten at McDonalds in my 57 years.  I simply ate too much.  Most fast food places do have healthier items on the menu but people choose poorly.

I have a friend who decided to avoid fast food places.  So now his favorite thing is a Jamba Juice large Peanut Butter Mood (770 calories)!  I wonder why he can't seem to lose weight?  Or how about we drop by Starbucks for a little holiday cheer of a vendi Eggnog Latte (610 calories).  FYI - a cheesburger and fries from McD's is only 530 calories.

You and I have both taken responsibility for what we put in our bodies and the results are ours to own, good and bad.  Blaming fast food places is too easy an excuse for people who need to look in the mirror first.  Example - No one could ever get killed by a speeding car if only car manufacturers would stop making cars that went faster than 65 MPH.  Ok, I will step off my soapbox now. Embarassed

 

I respectfully disagree.  Watch the movie "Supersize Me" and then let's talk some more.  Take a look at the dollar menu of the fast food burger places....Very little if anything that is remotely healthy...

I believe fast food restaurants (and big food manufacturers) are to blame.  Turn on the TV and count how many McDonald's, BK and Wendy's ads are on.....

I agree that we as individuals ultimately own our experience however for many people the easy and affordable route is crap food...

And I haven't even talked about the processed food you just zap in the microwave or heat in the oven...

Mike I have seen the movie. I noticed one thing that would have made a difference and it was only two words.  Every time he was asked if he wanted to supersize his order he had the option of saying 'No Thanks'.  Yes I know that was not the point of the movie but that was and is everyone's option to say.

More importantly, it is everyone's option not to be standing in the line at McDs in the first place.  I can't tell you how many millions or billions McDs spends on advertising but I can tell you I have never eaten at one, ever.  That's a choice.

You may see these big food companies as the bad guy but they serve the wants of thier customers.  People want fast and cheap or sweet and they want it easy.  To give them that it is often not very healthy but that is still the choice of the consumer.  If people stopped buying 59 cent hamburgers the chain burger joints you mentioned would stop selling them because they would get tired of throwing the burger patties away.

Every person on this site has made a choice.  Every person who sits on the couch and eats burgers and fries every day makes a different choice.  There are some who can not afford to become a triathlete but excepting those with physical limitations, every one can go for a walk.

Please understand, I am not saying that the big food companies and fast food places are bastions of virtue looking out for the health of thier customers.  What I am saying is as long as the dialog is on them and not on the individual obesty will contiue to grow. 

2012-12-18 5:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight

Mike I have seen the movie. I noticed one thing that would have made a difference and it was only two words.  Every time he was asked if he wanted to supersize his order he had the option of saying 'No Thanks'.  Yes I know that was not the point of the movie but that was and is everyone's option to say.

More importantly, it is everyone's option not to be standing in the line at McDs in the first place.  I can't tell you how many millions or billions McDs spends on advertising but I can tell you I have never eaten at one, ever.  That's a choice.

You may see these big food companies as the bad guy but they serve the wants of thier customers.  People want fast and cheap or sweet and they want it easy.  To give them that it is often not very healthy but that is still the choice of the consumer.  If people stopped buying 59 cent hamburgers the chain burger joints you mentioned would stop selling them because they would get tired of throwing the burger patties away.

Every person on this site has made a choice.  Every person who sits on the couch and eats burgers and fries every day makes a different choice.  There are some who can not afford to become a triathlete but excepting those with physical limitations, every one can go for a walk.

Please understand, I am not saying that the big food companies and fast food places are bastions of virtue looking out for the health of thier customers.  What I am saying is as long as the dialog is on them and not on the individual obesty will contiue to grow

The blame for obesity is on both parties, the food provider and the manufacturer.  However, I put it much more on the person, and that's because I lost over 100 lbs and have hardly any sympathy for someone who is overweight and doesn't make any attempt to choose to do something about it.  

At the end of the day, it is the person's choice to eat the Big Mac over the turkey sandwich, the french fries over the apple.  Prices may be more expensive for health foods.  If you're talking about Whole Foods versus Shoprite, that's definitely the case.  But there are still plenty of affordable, healthy foods.  $15 at KFC can feed a family of four, and the parents might think that's a good price for dinner.  But at the same time, $15 can buy a pack of frozen vegetables, a sack of potatoes and come chicken breasts as well.  Choosing the KFC bucket is easy and takes zero time to prepare dinner versus prepping the vegetables, potatoes, and chicken.  

A choice was made.

Who I feel more badly for is the children of parents who decide to eat unhealthily.  Kids eat what we give them.  If you feed them crap their entire childhood, you don't have anyone to blame for their obesity and related health issues but yourself.

I also don't buy into the lack of education thing anymore.  With obesity being such a hot topic nowadays, I don't believe a 40 year old overweight person (this has happened to me in a conversation) who claims he gained so much weight because he didn't know his daily diet of pizza, hot dogs, and beer was unhealthy.  BS.

2012-12-18 5:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight
Stuartap - 2012-12-18 6:24 PM
TriMike - 2012-12-18 1:49 PM
Stuartap - 2012-12-18 10:36 AM
TriMike - 2012-12-18 5:14 AM

La Tortuga - 2012-12-17 1:51 PM IMO we need more media attention to the obesity epidemic and it's cures and preventions.  It's still non-PC to tell someone they're over weight.  We need to start looking at overweight and obesity the same as we do tobacco use.

Absolutely...

The only caveat to that is many people truly don't understand what they're putting in their bodies...They know they're overweight but have no idea just how many bad calories they are putting in their bodies..

Until large food manufacturers and the fast food industry make healthy food as affordable as the heat and serve crap we as a nation as pounding down, I'm afraid obesity rates won't go down much if at all....

I personally struggle to get to my desired race weight because my appetite (even with good foods) exceeds my calories burned so I need to accept feeling hungry or less than satisfied in order to lose the necessary pounds..

I hope you don't mind a dissenting opinion here.  Your premise of people not knowing how many calories they are consuming is spot on but blaming the fast food industry is looking at the wrong party to lay blame.

As with your final paragraph I was 70# over weight for over a decade and the only person to blame is ME.  I never ate much at fast food places and as odd as it sounds, I have never eaten at McDonalds in my 57 years.  I simply ate too much.  Most fast food places do have healthier items on the menu but people choose poorly.

I have a friend who decided to avoid fast food places.  So now his favorite thing is a Jamba Juice large Peanut Butter Mood (770 calories)!  I wonder why he can't seem to lose weight?  Or how about we drop by Starbucks for a little holiday cheer of a vendi Eggnog Latte (610 calories).  FYI - a cheesburger and fries from McD's is only 530 calories.

You and I have both taken responsibility for what we put in our bodies and the results are ours to own, good and bad.  Blaming fast food places is too easy an excuse for people who need to look in the mirror first.  Example - No one could ever get killed by a speeding car if only car manufacturers would stop making cars that went faster than 65 MPH.  Ok, I will step off my soapbox now. Embarassed

 

I respectfully disagree.  Watch the movie "Supersize Me" and then let's talk some more.  Take a look at the dollar menu of the fast food burger places....Very little if anything that is remotely healthy...

I believe fast food restaurants (and big food manufacturers) are to blame.  Turn on the TV and count how many McDonald's, BK and Wendy's ads are on.....

I agree that we as individuals ultimately own our experience however for many people the easy and affordable route is crap food...

And I haven't even talked about the processed food you just zap in the microwave or heat in the oven...

Mike I have seen the movie. I noticed one thing that would have made a difference and it was only two words.  Every time he was asked if he wanted to supersize his order he had the option of saying 'No Thanks'.  Yes I know that was not the point of the movie but that was and is everyone's option to say.

More importantly, it is everyone's option not to be standing in the line at McDs in the first place.  I can't tell you how many millions or billions McDs spends on advertising but I can tell you I have never eaten at one, ever.  That's a choice.

You may see these big food companies as the bad guy but they serve the wants of thier customers.  People want fast and cheap or sweet and they want it easy.  To give them that it is often not very healthy but that is still the choice of the consumer.  If people stopped buying 59 cent hamburgers the chain burger joints you mentioned would stop selling them because they would get tired of throwing the burger patties away.

Every person on this site has made a choice.  Every person who sits on the couch and eats burgers and fries every day makes a different choice.  There are some who can not afford to become a triathlete but excepting those with physical limitations, every one can go for a walk.

Please understand, I am not saying that the big food companies and fast food places are bastions of virtue looking out for the health of thier customers.  What I am saying is as long as the dialog is on them and not on the individual obesty will contiue to grow. 

[/QUOTE

Actually the premise of the movie was he HAD to supersize each meal when it was offered.

I'm certainly not trying to defend the food choices people make each day as they ultimately decide...

However to not give blame to the fast food places or large manufacturers is like saying big tobacco isn't to blame for lung cancer as the smokers can simply say no to smoking...

A huge reach but very similar scenario....

2012-12-18 5:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight

I feel particularly qualified to weigh in on the fast food discussion...

I've developed something of an art to eating a relatively healthy diet at fast food places.  I say "relatively" because no, I'm not fooling myself into thinking it's the quality stuff that I can make at home.  Rather, a fast food diet doesn't have to make you fat.  It certainly CAN, but that is about the choices you make while there.  I know plenty of overweight people who don't touch the stuff, yet I've managed to lose 100 pounds eating the stuff every day.  It's value is convenience.  Hitting the drive thru for a supply of the macronutrients I need allows me time to work out. Ideal?  no.  Sustainable change?  Yes.  I simply would not be in the shape I am in and have the quality/enjoyment of life that I do if fast food weren't there for me.

 

It IS an unfortunate fact that a McDouble and fries and coke costs less than a grilled chicken breast sandwich.  It's also unfortunate that at Safeway, a 500 calorie meal of chicken breast, sweet potato and asparagus costs $8-$10 while a box of calorically empty mac and cheese costs and a hot dog, and bun costs $2 or less.  Heck, a whole bag of doritos costs less than a bunch of brussel sprouts.

It sucks that sometimes we have to choose crap food because it's more affordable per meal, but it's not remotely limited to fast food places.



2012-12-18 6:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight

TriMike - 2012-12-18 3:55 PM

“Actually the premise of the movie was he HAD to supersize each meal when it was offered.

I'm certainly not trying to defend the food choices people make each day as they ultimately decide...

However to not give blame to the fast food places or large manufacturers is like saying big tobacco isn't to blame for lung cancer as the smokers can simply say no to smoking...

A huge reach but very similar scenario....”

 

Mike in the move he HAD to supersize but in real life we all have a choice.  That choice is not McDs or anyone else to make, that is the choice of the person exclusively.  Likewise, I am not saying they are blameless.  Simply that you can completely render their actions moot by making better choices.  If you shut down every McDs in the country the obesity rate would not drop at all.  You would just make the other chain burger joints more money.

As for your tobacco analogy, it is not such a large reach.  Everyone knows tobacco smoking causes lung cancer.  I don’t blame the tobacco growers for that.  They didn’t put the cancer causing agents in the tobacco.  You want to blame cigarette mfgs for their practices years ago I am with you 100%.  But those days are long gone. Today, if you get cancer from smoking cigarettes you have no one to blame but yourself.  You made a choice and you should have to live and die with those consequences.

Tobacco education has come a long way over the past few decades just as nutrition and healthy diet information has.  I can offer you a cigarette a thousand times and my guess is you will decline each and every time.  It is that concern for your health that will end obesity, not blaming, attacking or even regulating fast food companies. 

2012-12-18 8:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight

La Tortuga - 2012-12-17 12:51 PM IMO we need more media attention to the obesity epidemic and it's cures and preventions.  It's still non-PC to tell someone they're over weight.  We need to start looking at overweight and obesity the same as we do tobacco use.

 

I always thought it was funny you could tell a smoker that their habit was unhealthy (to their face).  This is acceptable, yet you can't say the samething to someone at a doughnut shop.

 

Disclaimer: I love doughnuts.

2012-12-19 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight
Stuartap - 2012-12-18 7:17 PM

TriMike - 2012-12-18 3:55 PM

“Actually the premise of the movie was he HAD to supersize each meal when it was offered.

I'm certainly not trying to defend the food choices people make each day as they ultimately decide...

However to not give blame to the fast food places or large manufacturers is like saying big tobacco isn't to blame for lung cancer as the smokers can simply say no to smoking...

A huge reach but very similar scenario....”

 

Mike in the move he HAD to supersize but in real life we all have a choice.  That choice is not McDs or anyone else to make, that is the choice of the person exclusively.  Likewise, I am not saying they are blameless.  Simply that you can completely render their actions moot by making better choices.  If you shut down every McDs in the country the obesity rate would not drop at all.  You would just make the other chain burger joints more money.

As for your tobacco analogy, it is not such a large reach.  Everyone knows tobacco smoking causes lung cancer.  I don’t blame the tobacco growers for that.  They didn’t put the cancer causing agents in the tobacco.  You want to blame cigarette mfgs for their practices years ago I am with you 100%.  But those days are long gone. Today, if you get cancer from smoking cigarettes you have no one to blame but yourself.  You made a choice and you should have to live and die with those consequences.

Tobacco education has come a long way over the past few decades just as nutrition and healthy diet information has.  I can offer you a cigarette a thousand times and my guess is you will decline each and every time.  It is that concern for your health that will end obesity, not blaming, attacking or even regulating fast food companies. 

The only reason tobacco is still around is the tax revenue they generate...Otherwise why keep it around?  I agree individuals have choices but MANY individuals will make the wrong choice given the opportunity..

You and another poster mentioned major weight loss in your situations and congratulations to you.  You said enough is enough and made the changes and were successful.  I truly congratulate you. 

However for every one of you, there are tens of thousands of Americans who just don't have the internal fortitude...If we can agree that the majority of the food offerings at fast food restaurants and MANY processed food choices sold in grocery stores are bad for one's health, why don't we work to eliminate them from the menu or freezer aisle to help the majority of Americans struggling with obesity??

After all, obesity will cost each and every one of us in the form of increased insurance premiums etc..

2012-12-19 12:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight

TriMike - 2012-12-18 9:57 AM

“However for every one of you, there are tens of thousands of Americans who just don't have the internal fortitude...If we can agree that the majority of the food offerings at fast food restaurants and MANY processed food choices sold in grocery stores are bad for one's health, why don't we work to eliminate them from the menu or freezer aisle to help the majority of Americans struggling with obesity??”

 

Mike where do I start?  Let’s start with the big picture. 

Who is going to decide what is ‘bad for one’s health’?  I referenced earlier many offerings from Starbucks and Jamba Juice that are very high in calories.  Do we axe those as well?  What if those products are the difference between profit and loss for them?  Are you OK with putting 10,000 businesses and 1 Million people out of work?

Are you prepared to do the same thing at the grocery store to prevent people from making the same unhealthy meals at home?  If not, why not?

Are you prepared to shut down See’s Candy, Hershey’s et al?  If not, why not?

My brother owns 5 7-Eleven stores.  Junk food makes up a big part of his sales and much of his profits.  There are over 7500 locations in the US.  Are you prepared to ‘eliminate’ the junk food in their stores?  If so, they will ALL close and that is just one brand.  There are many other convenience stores.

Why stop at just this one problem?  Why not restrict car manufacturers from making Cars that exceed the highest allowable speed limit?  The number of deaths and injuries would plummet overnight.

What about alcohol?  If people on this site can compete in triathlons and eat junk food clearly you are trying to regulate behavior.  Can I not make the same argument for booze?  Yes, many people drink responsibly, but many do not.  Are you prepared to ‘eliminate’ all alcohol sales?  If not, why not?

By the way, I am not joking here.  I have heard each of these ideas floated by one group or another.  The product being attacked varies only by what axe you have to grind.  I simple do not believe you can ever get ahead of the obesity problem by attacking the food.  You need to address the actions of the people.

2012-12-19 12:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight
Stuartap - 2012-12-19 1:28 PM

TriMike - 2012-12-18 9:57 AM

“However for every one of you, there are tens of thousands of Americans who just don't have the internal fortitude...If we can agree that the majority of the food offerings at fast food restaurants and MANY processed food choices sold in grocery stores are bad for one's health, why don't we work to eliminate them from the menu or freezer aisle to help the majority of Americans struggling with obesity??”

 

Mike where do I start?  Let’s start with the big picture. 

Who is going to decide what is ‘bad for one’s health’?  I referenced earlier many offerings from Starbucks and Jamba Juice that are very high in calories.  Do we axe those as well?  What if those products are the difference between profit and loss for them?  Are you OK with putting 10,000 businesses and 1 Million people out of work?

Are you prepared to do the same thing at the grocery store to prevent people from making the same unhealthy meals at home?  If not, why not?

Are you prepared to shut down See’s Candy, Hershey’s et al?  If not, why not?

My brother owns 5 7-Eleven stores.  Junk food makes up a big part of his sales and much of his profits.  There are over 7500 locations in the US.  Are you prepared to ‘eliminate’ the junk food in their stores?  If so, they will ALL close and that is just one brand.  There are many other convenience stores.

Why stop at just this one problem?  Why not restrict car manufacturers from making Cars that exceed the highest allowable speed limit?  The number of deaths and injuries would plummet overnight.

What about alcohol?  If people on this site can compete in triathlons and eat junk food clearly you are trying to regulate behavior.  Can I not make the same argument for booze?  Yes, many people drink responsibly, but many do not.  Are you prepared to ‘eliminate’ all alcohol sales?  If not, why not?

By the way, I am not joking here.  I have heard each of these ideas floated by one group or another.  The product being attacked varies only by what axe you have to grind.  I simple do not believe you can ever get ahead of the obesity problem by attacking the food.  You need to address the actions of the people.

Stuart - I agree, where do I start?

Regarding who decides what is bad for one's health?  That's easy, obesity is bad for one's health and on top of the medical community, you and I know it.

Next, putting 10,000 retailers and who knows how many employees out of work if we eliminate crap food, that's actually the first ridiculous thing you've said in all this... 

I read an article about a proposal to put a "sin tax" on high calorie/high fat foods in order to do two things.  1)  Dissuade the purchase and 2) generate funds to build educational models to fight obesity.  As is typical in this country, the lobbyists were all over it and I don't think it ever got even a sniff of discussion.  And if you don't think the food lobby is powerful, look at who produced the food pyramid used for so many years....I still see people cite the inaccurate one instead of the revised one that is more balanced.

As for your brother's 7-11's, see my point above about sin taxes.  Once the balance of cost, supply and demand settles and healthier options become as affordable as the crap, I believe the shelves will slowly switch over and he will stay in business because EVERYONE will be facing the same music..

As for your comment about regulating behavior regarding cars, alcohol etc., that's just silly....I see where you're going with that but the topic is obesity and there is NOTHING more dangerous as a nation that we're facing than that...



2012-12-19 1:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight
TriMike - 2012-12-19 12:57 PM
Stuartap - 2012-12-18 7:17 PM

TriMike - 2012-12-18 3:55 PM

“Actually the premise of the movie was he HAD to supersize each meal when it was offered.

I'm certainly not trying to defend the food choices people make each day as they ultimately decide...

However to not give blame to the fast food places or large manufacturers is like saying big tobacco isn't to blame for lung cancer as the smokers can simply say no to smoking...

A huge reach but very similar scenario....”

 

Mike in the move he HAD to supersize but in real life we all have a choice.  That choice is not McDs or anyone else to make, that is the choice of the person exclusively.  Likewise, I am not saying they are blameless.  Simply that you can completely render their actions moot by making better choices.  If you shut down every McDs in the country the obesity rate would not drop at all.  You would just make the other chain burger joints more money.

As for your tobacco analogy, it is not such a large reach.  Everyone knows tobacco smoking causes lung cancer.  I don’t blame the tobacco growers for that.  They didn’t put the cancer causing agents in the tobacco.  You want to blame cigarette mfgs for their practices years ago I am with you 100%.  But those days are long gone. Today, if you get cancer from smoking cigarettes you have no one to blame but yourself.  You made a choice and you should have to live and die with those consequences.

Tobacco education has come a long way over the past few decades just as nutrition and healthy diet information has.  I can offer you a cigarette a thousand times and my guess is you will decline each and every time.  It is that concern for your health that will end obesity, not blaming, attacking or even regulating fast food companies. 

The only reason tobacco is still around is the tax revenue they generate...Otherwise why keep it around?  I agree individuals have choices but MANY individuals will make the wrong choice given the opportunity..

You and another poster mentioned major weight loss in your situations and congratulations to you.  You said enough is enough and made the changes and were successful.  I truly congratulate you. 

However for every one of you, there are tens of thousands of Americans who just don't have the internal fortitude...If we can agree that the majority of the food offerings at fast food restaurants and MANY processed food choices sold in grocery stores are bad for one's health, why don't we work to eliminate them from the menu or freezer aisle to help the majority of Americans struggling with obesity??

After all, obesity will cost each and every one of us in the form of increased insurance premiums etc..

 

now that "healthy" food is becoming a fad, there is ambiguity all over the grocery store isles.  Its hard for some people to "eat healthy" when the box on their food says "whole grain, organic, all natural" and an assortment of other things that lead people to believe that it is a healthy food.  

i think as triathletes especially, we dont really grasp the difficulty because we focus on diet.  at least I do

Example -my dad's smoothie recipe after his stroke :low fat boston creme yogurt, scoop of reduced fat jif peanut butter, chocolate chip granola bar, whey protein, milk and "sometimes a scoop or 2 of nesquick"  -he was pretty excited cause it was so good he would have one or two a day!!  Healthy goodness!!

     

2012-12-19 2:37 PM
in reply to: #4541641

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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight

 

now that "healthy" food is becoming a fad, there is ambiguity all over the grocery store isles.  Its hard for some people to "eat healthy" when the box on their food says "whole grain, organic, all natural" and an assortment of other things that lead people to believe that it is a healthy food.  

i think as triathletes especially, we dont really grasp the difficulty because we focus on diet.  at least I do

Example -my dad's smoothie recipe after his stroke :low fat boston creme yogurt, scoop of reduced fat jif peanut butter, chocolate chip granola bar, whey protein, milk and "sometimes a scoop or 2 of nesquick"  -he was pretty excited cause it was so good he would have one or two a day!!  Healthy goodness!!

     

This is my point....Individuals require a lot of interpretation in order to "do the right thing."  This is why big food manufacturers need to eliminate the confusion....And that won't come until the politicians enforce it and they are inept...

Classic example of misrepresentation.  The labeling will show the fat, saturated fat, calories, etc., and at quick glance it may seem reasonable...Until you read elsewhere on the packaging that the serving size is 2.5....And in many cases the entire package, bag, bottle etc., seems to most as if IT (entire bag, bottle etc.) were the serving size...

2012-12-19 3:17 PM
in reply to: #4541457

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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight
TriMike - 2012-12-19 10:42 AM
Stuartap - 2012-12-19 1:28 PM

TriMike - 2012-12-18 9:57 AM

“However for every one of you, there are tens of thousands of Americans who just don't have the internal fortitude...If we can agree that the majority of the food offerings at fast food restaurants and MANY processed food choices sold in grocery stores are bad for one's health, why don't we work to eliminate them from the menu or freezer aisle to help the majority of Americans struggling with obesity??”

 

Mike where do I start?  Let’s start with the big picture. 

Who is going to decide what is ‘bad for one’s health’?  I referenced earlier many offerings from Starbucks and Jamba Juice that are very high in calories.  Do we axe those as well?  What if those products are the difference between profit and loss for them?  Are you OK with putting 10,000 businesses and 1 Million people out of work?

Are you prepared to do the same thing at the grocery store to prevent people from making the same unhealthy meals at home?  If not, why not?

Are you prepared to shut down See’s Candy, Hershey’s et al?  If not, why not?

My brother owns 5 7-Eleven stores.  Junk food makes up a big part of his sales and much of his profits.  There are over 7500 locations in the US.  Are you prepared to ‘eliminate’ the junk food in their stores?  If so, they will ALL close and that is just one brand.  There are many other convenience stores.

Why stop at just this one problem?  Why not restrict car manufacturers from making Cars that exceed the highest allowable speed limit?  The number of deaths and injuries would plummet overnight.

What about alcohol?  If people on this site can compete in triathlons and eat junk food clearly you are trying to regulate behavior.  Can I not make the same argument for booze?  Yes, many people drink responsibly, but many do not.  Are you prepared to ‘eliminate’ all alcohol sales?  If not, why not?

By the way, I am not joking here.  I have heard each of these ideas floated by one group or another.  The product being attacked varies only by what axe you have to grind.  I simple do not believe you can ever get ahead of the obesity problem by attacking the food.  You need to address the actions of the people.

Stuart - I agree, where do I start?

Regarding who decides what is bad for one's health?  That's easy, obesity is bad for one's health and on top of the medical community, you and I know it.

Next, putting 10,000 retailers and who knows how many employees out of work if we eliminate crap food, that's actually the first ridiculous thing you've said in all this... 

I read an article about a proposal to put a "sin tax" on high calorie/high fat foods in order to do two things.  1)  Dissuade the purchase and 2) generate funds to build educational models to fight obesity.  As is typical in this country, the lobbyists were all over it and I don't think it ever got even a sniff of discussion.  And if you don't think the food lobby is powerful, look at who produced the food pyramid used for so many years....I still see people cite the inaccurate one instead of the revised one that is more balanced.

As for your brother's 7-11's, see my point above about sin taxes.  Once the balance of cost, supply and demand settles and healthier options become as affordable as the crap, I believe the shelves will slowly switch over and he will stay in business because EVERYONE will be facing the same music..

As for your comment about regulating behavior regarding cars, alcohol etc., that's just silly....I see where you're going with that but the topic is obesity and there is NOTHING more dangerous as a nation that we're facing than that...

Mike clearly we disagree but the scenario of putting businesses out of business is hardly far fetched.  My brother's store generate more than half their gross profit on what you would like to tax and/or ban.  The average 7-Eleven store operates on single digit net profit margins.  You may not want to face that reality but the numbers don't lie.  Taxing the items to drive down consumption will absolutely put him out of business.  Before you call the notion ridiculous you might want to check the numbers, I know them intimitly.  You fail to understand that the margins on that junk are higher than 'healthy food'.  Convenience store could never compete and would lose the maket they currently serve.  Nobody is going into my brother's store to buy brocolli, ever.

I also see you chose not to answer my question on See's Candy and Hersheys.  Do you really think that driving down thier sales through sin tax and ban will have no impact on thier viability as a company?

With no disrepect intended, ideas like this simply ignore the law of unintended consequences.  Besides that, I am not ready to hand over my rights because a segment of the population can't make decisions that are in thier own best interest.

Also are you really going to call my ideas on cars and alchohol 'silly'.  Perhaps you may have heard of something called prohibition. 

Fianlly, since you are a fan of trying to regulate behavior by sin taxes, would you support a BMI tax on people?  Wouldn't this have the same effect?  You and I will likley agree that a person getting an annual physical will have lower health costs over thier lifetime than those who wait until they ae sick.  If you don't agree I would be happy to cite numerous articles that would support that position. So every year you get weighted and measured as part of an annual physical and get taxed accodingly over a certain BMI.

Let's tax the one really responsible for the problem based on BMI or some other measure.  The more overweight you are, the higher the tax.  Are you on board with that?

 

2012-12-19 3:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight

We are talking about the difference between taking away someone's choice and educating them to make the correct choice.  I think we all know that telling someone what the CAN'T do typically works out the same way every time.

Healthy food is more expensive at fast food places because it is more expensive.  Most of their food can stay in a box in the freezer for months on end, if need be.  Any amount of fresh veggies or fruits doesn't have nearly that sort of shelf life, nor is it as easy to ship around the nation.  None of this is the fault of the fast food place - their food costs are based directly off of the cost of the item itself.  It's the same reason a steak costs more than the chicken dish.  You can't blame the restaurant that the steak costs more, no more than you can blame the farmer for the price of respective livestock.

People can make the difference in their own lives.  The fact that it is hard to do only makes the end result that much sweeter.

2012-12-19 6:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight

Interesting article from earlier in the year from Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmaris/2012/04/19/is-a-tax-on-obesity-in-americas-future/.  It's a long article but here is the opening:

Is A Fat Tax In America's Future?

Put down that junk food and hit the treadmill.

1 in 3 Americans believe that obese people should pay more in taxes than healthy weight people, according to a national survey conducted last week by my firm, Phalanx Investment Partners LLC, utilizing a national survey service. In addition, a higher percentage of Americans believe we should tax obese people rather than tax high-fat and high-sugar foods.

The fact that taxing the obese could garner support by nearly 40% of Americans in a country where approximately 75% of the population is overweight is surprising. In other words – it’s not just skinny people who think those that consume more of the healthcare dollars, should pay for their share of the expenses.



2012-12-19 8:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight
Stuartap - 2012-12-19 7:28 PM

Interesting article from earlier in the year from Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmaris/2012/04/19/is-a-tax-on-obesity-in-americas-future/.  It's a long article but here is the opening:

Is A Fat Tax In America's Future?

Put down that junk food and hit the treadmill.

1 in 3 Americans believe that obese people should pay more in taxes than healthy weight people, according to a national survey conducted last week by my firm, Phalanx Investment Partners LLC, utilizing a national survey service. In addition, a higher percentage of Americans believe we should tax obese people rather than tax high-fat and high-sugar foods.

The fact that taxing the obese could garner support by nearly 40% of Americans in a country where approximately 75% of the population is overweight is surprising. In other words – it’s not just skinny people who think those that consume more of the healthcare dollars, should pay for their share of the expenses.

 

This article is essentially my point.  Obesity has costs and those living that lifestyle need to pony up for their share of the costs to the system..

I don't believe many of our obese population can make good choices so I'm essentially advocating cutting them off from the crap...

I also see the sin tax application would be tricky and needs thought but I still feel the concept is worth consideration...

Loss of jobs due to tight margins sucks but I'd have to argue their margins are prepayments on the backs of the taxpayers paying for their customers' medical costs...Short term and long term, last year of life etc...

2012-12-19 8:58 PM
in reply to: #4542124

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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight
TriMike - 2012-12-19 6:02 PM
Stuartap - 2012-12-19 7:28 PM

Interesting article from earlier in the year from Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmaris/2012/04/19/is-a-tax-on-obesity-in-americas-future/.  It's a long article but here is the opening:

Is A Fat Tax In America's Future?

Put down that junk food and hit the treadmill.

1 in 3 Americans believe that obese people should pay more in taxes than healthy weight people, according to a national survey conducted last week by my firm, Phalanx Investment Partners LLC, utilizing a national survey service. In addition, a higher percentage of Americans believe we should tax obese people rather than tax high-fat and high-sugar foods.

The fact that taxing the obese could garner support by nearly 40% of Americans in a country where approximately 75% of the population is overweight is surprising. In other words – it’s not just skinny people who think those that consume more of the healthcare dollars, should pay for their share of the expenses.

 

This article is essentially my point.  Obesity has costs and those living that lifestyle need to pony up for their share of the costs to the system..

I don't believe many of our obese population can make good choices so I'm essentially advocating cutting them off from the crap...

I also see the sin tax application would be tricky and needs thought but I still feel the concept is worth consideration...

Loss of jobs due to tight margins sucks but I'd have to argue their margins are prepayments on the backs of the taxpayers paying for their customers' medical costs...Short term and long term, last year of life etc...

So if I am hearing you correctly you are OK putting tens of thousands of companies out of business, throwing millions of hard working people out of work and making foods millions can enjoy responsibly either too expensive to buy or illegal because some people can't make good choices?  That is an acceptable response to the problem to you?

You said above: ??????"Obesity has costs and those living that lifestyle need to pony up for their share of the costs to the system."  'Those living that lifestyle' are the obese, not the food manufacturers, not the fast food joints, and certainly not the employees of these businesses you are so willing to sacrifice. 

Why should you and I pay more to enjoy a burger and fries which we do in moderation while maintaining a healthy lifestyle because others can't exercise the same restraint?  Why should some foods be banned because thier calorie count exceeds some magic number by the food police?  Last time I checked chocolate cake was very low in nutrients and very high in calories so let's ban birthday cake!

Let me ask you for a third time a point blank question.  A simple yes or no will suffice:

Are you willing to see See's Candy, Hersheys and 7-Eleven go out of business to acheive your objectives here? 

2012-12-19 9:16 PM
in reply to: #4542160

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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight
Stuartap - 2012-12-19 9:58 PM
TriMike - 2012-12-19 6:02 PM
Stuartap - 2012-12-19 7:28 PM

Interesting article from earlier in the year from Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmaris/2012/04/19/is-a-tax-on-obesity-in-americas-future/.  It's a long article but here is the opening:

Is A Fat Tax In America's Future?

Put down that junk food and hit the treadmill.

1 in 3 Americans believe that obese people should pay more in taxes than healthy weight people, according to a national survey conducted last week by my firm, Phalanx Investment Partners LLC, utilizing a national survey service. In addition, a higher percentage of Americans believe we should tax obese people rather than tax high-fat and high-sugar foods.

The fact that taxing the obese could garner support by nearly 40% of Americans in a country where approximately 75% of the population is overweight is surprising. In other words – it’s not just skinny people who think those that consume more of the healthcare dollars, should pay for their share of the expenses.

 

This article is essentially my point.  Obesity has costs and those living that lifestyle need to pony up for their share of the costs to the system..

I don't believe many of our obese population can make good choices so I'm essentially advocating cutting them off from the crap...

I also see the sin tax application would be tricky and needs thought but I still feel the concept is worth consideration...

Loss of jobs due to tight margins sucks but I'd have to argue their margins are prepayments on the backs of the taxpayers paying for their customers' medical costs...Short term and long term, last year of life etc...

So if I am hearing you correctly you are OK putting tens of thousands of companies out of business, throwing millions of hard working people out of work and making foods millions can enjoy responsibly either too expensive to buy or illegal because some people can't make good choices?  That is an acceptable response to the problem to you?

You said above: ??????"Obesity has costs and those living that lifestyle need to pony up for their share of the costs to the system."  'Those living that lifestyle' are the obese, not the food manufacturers, not the fast food joints, and certainly not the employees of these businesses you are so willing to sacrifice. 

Why should you and I pay more to enjoy a burger and fries which we do in moderation while maintaining a healthy lifestyle because others can't exercise the same restraint?  Why should some foods be banned because thier calorie count exceeds some magic number by the food police?  Last time I checked chocolate cake was very low in nutrients and very high in calories so let's ban birthday cake!

Let me ask you for a third time a point blank question.  A simple yes or no will suffice:

Are you willing to see See's Candy, Hersheys and 7-Eleven go out of business to acheive your objectives here? 

 

You're worried about saving jobs and that's great.  However you haven't offered any solutions to end obesity other than to say it's all personal choice...

You appear more concerned with paying more for a hamburger than you do figuring out how to pay 135 BILLION a year in obesity related costs...

Give me at least ONE viable solution to ending obesity from your perspective and we can go from there debating costs to society....

You either are over optimistic or afraid of the truth..

2012-12-19 9:59 PM
in reply to: #4542170

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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight
TriMike - 2012-12-19 7:16 PM
Stuartap - 2012-12-19 9:58 PM
TriMike - 2012-12-19 6:02 PM
Stuartap - 2012-12-19 7:28 PM

Interesting article from earlier in the year from Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmaris/2012/04/19/is-a-tax-on-obesity-in-americas-future/.  It's a long article but here is the opening:

Is A Fat Tax In America's Future?

Put down that junk food and hit the treadmill.

1 in 3 Americans believe that obese people should pay more in taxes than healthy weight people, according to a national survey conducted last week by my firm, Phalanx Investment Partners LLC, utilizing a national survey service. In addition, a higher percentage of Americans believe we should tax obese people rather than tax high-fat and high-sugar foods.

The fact that taxing the obese could garner support by nearly 40% of Americans in a country where approximately 75% of the population is overweight is surprising. In other words – it’s not just skinny people who think those that consume more of the healthcare dollars, should pay for their share of the expenses.

 

This article is essentially my point.  Obesity has costs and those living that lifestyle need to pony up for their share of the costs to the system..

I don't believe many of our obese population can make good choices so I'm essentially advocating cutting them off from the crap...

I also see the sin tax application would be tricky and needs thought but I still feel the concept is worth consideration...

Loss of jobs due to tight margins sucks but I'd have to argue their margins are prepayments on the backs of the taxpayers paying for their customers' medical costs...Short term and long term, last year of life etc...

So if I am hearing you correctly you are OK putting tens of thousands of companies out of business, throwing millions of hard working people out of work and making foods millions can enjoy responsibly either too expensive to buy or illegal because some people can't make good choices?  That is an acceptable response to the problem to you?

You said above: ??????"Obesity has costs and those living that lifestyle need to pony up for their share of the costs to the system."  'Those living that lifestyle' are the obese, not the food manufacturers, not the fast food joints, and certainly not the employees of these businesses you are so willing to sacrifice. 

Why should you and I pay more to enjoy a burger and fries which we do in moderation while maintaining a healthy lifestyle because others can't exercise the same restraint?  Why should some foods be banned because thier calorie count exceeds some magic number by the food police?  Last time I checked chocolate cake was very low in nutrients and very high in calories so let's ban birthday cake!

Let me ask you for a third time a point blank question.  A simple yes or no will suffice:

Are you willing to see See's Candy, Hersheys and 7-Eleven go out of business to acheive your objectives here? 

 

You're worried about saving jobs and that's great.  However you haven't offered any solutions to end obesity other than to say it's all personal choice...

You appear more concerned with paying more for a hamburger than you do figuring out how to pay 135 BILLION a year in obesity related costs...

Give me at least ONE viable solution to ending obesity from your perspective and we can go from there debating costs to society....

You either are over optimistic or afraid of the truth..

I believe I did give you one viable solution but you didn't seem to like it.  Tax those that are the source of the 135 Billion/year cost. 

Let's say you have 100 drivers. 60 have perfectly clean records, 20 have a ticket or two and another 20 have multiple DUI's, running red lights and serious accidents.  Would you advocate adding a dollar a gallon to the price of gas so all 100 drivers can get thier cars fixed and thier victims compensated?  Please, this time rather than calling me silly, try answering the question.

I won't ask the question about See's Candy et all for a fourth time because it appears you are afraid to answer that. 

For the record, I am not arguing that obesity is not a serious problem.  And for the record, I am not wholly opposed to the idea of some mechanism to some sort of tax as you advocate.  What I am opposed to is jumping into another govt regulation to protect people from themselves at the expense of those who do do take care of themselves without a serious understanding of the consequences.  It is here that it seems you are afraid of the truth.

As much as I hate to open this Pandora's box I must because it is related.  Look at healthcare.  Regardless of which side of the obamacare debate you are on, the legislation seems to have fallen into the same trap.  Require everyone to pay for healthcare plus half a trillion dollars in new taxes so everyone can have healthcare coverage as if money is an inexhausable resource. 

At some point in time smart people need to make real decisions about priorities.  Sadly none of our current elected officials seems willing to do that.  We can not have everything.  If we raise funds for obesity healthcare related costs all we have done is funded the perpetuation of the problem.  How does that reduce the number of obese?  If lower income people have a higher incidence of obsesity and healthier choices are more expensive are you not making it more difficult for them to survive economically?  Does that not have both a dollar cost and a human cost?

Our current budget is way out of wack.  If you or I had a similar budget we would have been forced into bankruptcy.  And as much as some people want to say healthcare is more important than money I have never had a sinlge person with that philosophy tell me where the money will come from.  So let's play this out:

1. We start taxing foods someone decides are contributing to obesity.

2. Healthcare costs are partially paid for with this money.

3. Unemployment costs skyrocket for higher numbers of unemployed for a longer period of time because you put several industries out of business.

4. You raise unemployment taxes on the remaining business.

5. Thousands more businesses who were already on the edge go under.

6. Repeat 3-4-5 above.

If I said OK, Mike gets to decide what foods should be taxed and what should be banned altogether.  Can you tell me exactly what consequences you are willing to accept since you so easily dismiss those I have raised?

 

2012-12-19 10:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight

Mike I appreciate your passion but I am beginning to feel like this is a two person conversation that is adding little value to the group here.  May I suggest we consider one of three options:

1. We take this offline.  I would be happy to PM my email and we can go back and forth as long as we choose without boring the people on this site.

2. We agree to disagree and walk away friends.

3. We each pose to the other specific questions (say three max at a time) that the other pledges to answer in a courteous and professional manner.  This could add to peoples understanding of the problem and how those on either side of the arguement see the problems and solutions differently.

If you would prefer option 3 please feel free to take the first opportunity to ask away.

Thanks,



2012-12-20 6:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight
Stuartap - 2012-12-19 11:23 PM

Mike I appreciate your passion but I am beginning to feel like this is a two person conversation that is adding little value to the group here.  May I suggest we consider one of three options:

1. We take this offline.  I would be happy to PM my email and we can go back and forth as long as we choose without boring the people on this site.

2. We agree to disagree and walk away friends.

3. We each pose to the other specific questions (say three max at a time) that the other pledges to answer in a courteous and professional manner.  This could add to peoples understanding of the problem and how those on either side of the arguement see the problems and solutions differently.

If you would prefer option 3 please feel free to take the first opportunity to ask away.

Thanks,

I choose option #2.....I think we're on the same page regarding somehow attributing the costs of obesity to the obese...We just have differing opinions on  how to get there...

I don't have data to support my thoughts on food/sin tax, and wouldn't fully endorse the program until I understood the layout...My frustration is seeing a fat family chowing down at a fast food place or seeing their cart at the grocery store full of bad stuff...

Punishing ALL (food/sin tax) because of the obese isn't completely fair I'll agree with you on that...However if it's bad for one it's bad for all, just that the disciplined eater eats the crap food in moderation....Still isn't technically any better for them either...

You did mention taxing based on BMI which is heading in the right direction but there would need to be exceptions to the rule for those that are muscle bound....

So we agree to disagree but it was a good discussion and I'm thankful we aren't on ST where people are quick to start with the F-bombs and insults..

2012-12-20 8:58 AM
in reply to: #4538044

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Subject: RE: Local news story this AM -- Running will help you lose weight

Mike thanks for the lively discussion. Certainly a topic worth spending some intellectual capital on.

Have a Happy Holiday!

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