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2013-06-07 2:12 PM
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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

Originally posted by axteraa Anyone have any races this weekend or anything else exciting?  We are getting the remnants of the tropical storm passing through Sat and Sun so it could be a bit messy with wind and rain.  I'm hoping to get out on the bike for 3 hours early tomorrow to beat the rain.

Redondo Beach Tri, this was my first tri in 2005, and I've either raced it or volunteered every year since it started.  I went back to racing 2 years ago, as it's easier than volunteering     But I still do my part since my wife is one of the captains, I show up at 5 am like everyone else and work until I start getting ready 

It's an odd format, set up so the S/B/R are theoretically equal. .5 mile swim, 6 mile bike, 2 mile run.  It's a good course for swimmers      This is my first year as an AGer and I hope to break :50 and get on the podium.  That would be a first for me.  There's a guy from San Diego who won my AG last year by several minutes showing up again, so it's a battle for 2d and 3d at this point 

Also going in tomorrow for a followup on the fit, I got some new aerobar extensions that I am going to have adjusted and installed for the race.



Edited by ChrisM 2013-06-07 2:15 PM


2013-06-07 2:35 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by axteraa Anyone have any races this weekend or anything else exciting?  We are getting the remnants of the tropical storm passing through Sat and Sun so it could be a bit messy with wind and rain.  I'm hoping to get out on the bike for 3 hours early tomorrow to beat the rain.

Redondo Beach Tri, this was my first tri in 2005, and I've either raced it or volunteered every year since it started.  I went back to racing 2 years ago, as it's easier than volunteering     But I still do my part since my wife is one of the captains, I show up at 5 am like everyone else and work until I start getting ready 

It's an odd format, set up so the S/B/R are theoretically equal. .5 mile swim, 6 mile bike, 2 mile run.  It's a good course for swimmers      This is my first year as an AGer and I hope to break :50 and get on the podium.  That would be a first for me.  There's a guy from San Diego who won my AG last year by several minutes showing up again, so it's a battle for 2d and 3d at this point 

Also going in tomorrow for a followup on the fit, I got some new aerobar extensions that I am going to have adjusted and installed for the race.

Good luck - hope you bag a podium!!

Great venue (my brother lived on Redondo for a decade or so some years back, and I'd visit whenever I could!).  Sounds like a family affair, too - nice!

Matt

2013-06-07 2:41 PM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

Originally posted by tri808 Matt, I think your grounds for investigating that theory makes sense. However, I think when all the math is accounted for, it ends up that even pacing is the way to go. The reason being is that we are riding a given distance, not a given amount of time. The slower we go into the wind, we have to go even faster with the wind to make up for it. For example, if the goal is to ride at 20 mph on a 20 mile out and back (10 miles each way, with a goal of 1 hour flat) with a headwind down, and a tailwind back. We can't just ride 15 mph down and 25 mph back to get 20 mph. This is because at 15 mph, you're going to take 40 minutes to get down, and 25 minutes to come back at 25 mph. This results in a 1:05 time...slower than 20 mph. If we wanted to go 15 mph down and still hit 1 hour, we would need to ride at 30 mph coming back (20 minutes). For someone with a goal of 20 mph overall...the chances of you sustaining 30 mph even with a strong tailwind is not likely even if you used less power on the first half. For my race, I'm expecting about a steady 10-20 mph head crosswind going out, and the opposite tailwind coming back. My goal is roughly 25 mph...and if I were to pace it relatively even...I would expect to ride the first half at around 23.8 mph (31:20), and the second half at around 27 mph (27:40) for 59 minutes total. If I took your proposed strategy, and say rode 20 watts less on the first half, and 20 watts more on the second half. IME, I would expect to ride the out portion into the wind around 1 mph slower. So at 22.8 mph, that's 32:42. To ride 59 minutes, I would need to ride 26:18, or 28.3 mph. So basically, I would need 20 extra watts on the second half to equate to an additional 1.3 mph in speed just to be even...which in my experience...is fairly close to accurate. So your theory is right. If we reduce 20 watts when going into the wind we only may lose 1 mph. And by adding 20 watts when going with the wind where there is less net wind resistance we gain 1.3 mph. But the overall time is still the same. The theory was though that you would actually go faster....which means a 20 watt increase would result in MORE than a 1.3 mph increase in speed. I can tell you though, at 28ish mph...I even with a strong tailwind there is still plenty of wind resistance, and gaining another 0.2 mph will take some wattage. But the primary reason you won't see anyone use this strategy is because the physical demands of riding 20 watts over your goal for 30ish minutes. It's not an equal trade. If your one hour power is 250, that doesn't mean you can ride at 230 for 30 minutes and 270 for 30 minutes. The 270 for 30 minutes is going to put you over the red line.

That's a really interesting point, and certainly matches my experience.  I wonder if the curve for exertion:W is just as non-linear as the W needed to overcome wind resistance!

Likely at least somewhat so, right?  Makes the math next to impossible (I'm not that guy).

So, any benefits - even if there are some - would end up being even slighter... and probably not worth the mental effort of riding at exactly 2 or 3 W different.  Shoot for an average within as tight a band as you can and hammer away, I suppose.

2013-06-07 2:48 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by mcmanusclan5




Yeah...you're really starting to split hairs. If you could put every single variable into a computer, I'm certain it could tell you exactly how many watts to put out in every situation (hills, wind, rough road, etc)...but most people struggle with riding at the same wattage on the trainer where there are no variables...so to think much beyond that is sort of a waste of energy in itself.

Always an interesting discussion though.
2013-06-07 2:53 PM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

Originally posted by tri808
Originally posted by mcmanusclan5
Yeah...you're really starting to split hairs. If you could put every single variable into a computer, I'm certain it could tell you exactly how many watts to put out in every situation (hills, wind, rough road, etc)...but most people struggle with riding at the same wattage on the trainer where there are no variables...so to think much beyond that is sort of a waste of energy in itself. Always an interesting discussion though.

I am very interested in this discussion as IM Canada has a very flat out and back section in the last 1/2 of the course, with variable winds (although sure to be some combo of a head and cross wind), followed by a long climb back up to Whistler (about 9 miles).  Pacing during that flat portion is I think going to make or break the day

2013-06-07 3:14 PM
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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

Just curious - can anyone see my RR from the Holliston tri in MA?  A few people have told me they can't get to it, and I'm wondering if it's because BT has the date wrong and it hasn't officially happened yet (6/9 v 6/2) or if I have to do something else to make it show up.

The link that I get by copy/paste:  http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/RaceLog/races-view-container.asp?raceid=248548 

Just curious if I am creating these wrong...  (FNG at S/B/R RRs)

Thanks!

Matt

ETA: the link works fine for me.  ????



Edited by mcmanusclan5 2013-06-07 3:16 PM


2013-06-07 3:27 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by GoFaster
Originally posted by axteraa Anyone have any races this weekend or anything else exciting?  We are getting the remnants of the tropical storm passing through Sat and Sun so it could be a bit messy with wind and rain.  I'm hoping to get out on the bike for 3 hours early tomorrow to beat the rain.
I'm heading up to the inlaws and then planning on driving to the site of a July Olympic race and then ride the course a couple of times and run some of it. New course for me, and it's kind of a cool race. They cap the race at only 300 because they take you out into the middle of the lake on a couple of classic paddleboats (limited space) and drop you off, and you then swim back to shore. Racing with/against friends so this one by default becomes an A race.

That's really cool, where is the race?




The town is Gravenhurst, and it's up in the Muskoka's so you're riding around parts of the Canadian Shield. It's supposed to have some of the nicest scenery of any race in Ontario. It's also supposed to be hilly on the ride (which is fine), with a bit of a harder undulating run. I did another Olympic last year in the same area and the ride was definitely hilly, but that one had a pretty flat run.
2013-06-07 3:33 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Just curious - can anyone see my RR from the Holliston tri in MA?  A few people have told me they can't get to it, and I'm wondering if it's because BT has the date wrong and it hasn't officially happened yet (6/9 v 6/2) or if I have to do something else to make it show up.

The link that I get by copy/paste:  http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/RaceLog/races-view-container.asp?raceid=248548 

Just curious if I am creating these wrong...  (FNG at S/B/R RRs)

Thanks!

Matt

ETA: the link works fine for me.  ????

I can't get to it.  Looks like you still have the RR in draft mode, you have to do the save and make public thing (or whatever it's called with the new BT).

2013-06-07 4:07 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Just curious - can anyone see my RR from the Holliston tri in MA?  A few people have told me they can't get to it, and I'm wondering if it's because BT has the date wrong and it hasn't officially happened yet (6/9 v 6/2) or if I have to do something else to make it show up.

The link that I get by copy/paste:  http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/RaceLog/races-view-container.asp?raceid=248548 

Just curious if I am creating these wrong...  (FNG at S/B/R RRs)

Thanks!

Matt

ETA: the link works fine for me.  ????

nope

2013-06-07 4:39 PM
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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

Hunh… 

There is a Save option under edit, but nothing I can choose to make it final or public or such.

Flummoxed.

Thanks for checking, though.

ETA: when I log out and look for it, I see the report in the main page but cannot get to the full report.  So, must be the draft thing...

Second ETA: it appears to be that the date BT has is this coming Sunday, rather than when the race happened (last Sunday), as my older RR's have the option to make public but this one doesn't.  So, look forward to some wonderful reading next week (I know y'all just can't wait to read about me swimming, biking and running - oh, wait…  

Thanks!

Matt



Edited by mcmanusclan5 2013-06-07 4:45 PM
2013-06-07 6:18 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

RR fixed, i think.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=491421 

Enjoy, if so inclined!

Matt



2013-06-07 9:55 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Part II of this group is now live in the current menor group area.
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