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Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
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2012-12-23 9:58 AM

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Subject: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
I've heard it countless times now, in many different places, that it would be impossible to make guns illegal, either by repealing or changing the 2nd Amendment. That this right is so old and traditional and ingrained in the US that it would be unthinkable.

Well, as a country we've made changes to the Constitution before, once there was enough popular support. As future generations grow up, popular opinion tends to shift. We're seeing this happen in our lifetimes with gay rights. Who's to say what the attitudes will be about guns 100 years from now?

So, here's a completely informal poll.

Do you think the 2nd Amendment is no longer appropriate for modern-day America, and should be changed or repealed to make private gun ownership illegal?


2012-12-23 10:02 AM
in reply to: #4545847

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
There needs to be a 'Hell no!' option.
2012-12-23 10:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
I thought about adding an option for "over my dead body".

But I'm genuinely curious about everyone's attitudes, especially the silent majority of people who read COJ but don't post. And I don't want this to devolve into a flame-fest.
2012-12-23 10:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
I like this rant on Saturday Night Live Weekend Update:“When you talk about guns you always hear a lot about the Second Amendment and the Founding Fathers, and what they would say if they were here. Well, I for one think that if the Founding Fathers were here today, they would be super freaked out by cars. You can talk to them all you want about the Second Amendment, and they would just yell, ‘What are all these metal beasts doing rolling down the thoroughfare?’ And you’d tell them, ‘Those are cars’. And then you’d try to talk to them about militias and they would scream, ‘How can you speak of militias when steel dragons fly through the sky?’ And you’d say, ‘Those are airplanes.’ But even if they could wrap their heads around that they would eventually ask, ‘Why are all the slaves out?’ And they would think that. You can groan all you want, but they would think that.And yes, the Founding Fathers wanted you to have the right to bear arms, but the guys who wrote that would pee through all eight layers of their pants if they saw what guns are now. In 1787 shooting a bullet was slightly faster than throwing one. If you wanted to be bulletproof in 1787 you put on a heavy coat. So with that in mind, I’m all about Americans having guns as long as they’re the muskets from 1787 that take forever to load.”
2012-12-23 10:10 AM
in reply to: #4545847

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment

Yeah, lets make guns illegal but legalize drugs.  Well. we are half way there.  (sarcasm intended)

Seriously, if you amend the 2nd, then you should go ahead and do the same with the 1st and 4th, not that thay aren't infringed on already but you can see where this is headed.  I'll fight standing up vs having my hands tied and bound!

I do believe "well armed milita" means "comparable" to current standards, regardless of the technology at the time, the intent I beleive is that "we" keep up with "them".

2012-12-23 10:30 AM
in reply to: #4545865

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
hrliles - 2012-12-23 9:10 AM

Yeah, lets make guns illegal but legalize drugs.  Well. we are half way there.  (sarcasm intended)

Seriously, if you amend the 2nd, then you should go ahead and do the same with the 1st and 4th, not that thay aren't infringed on already but you can see where this is headed.  I'll fight standing up vs having my hands tied and bound!

I do believe "well armed milita" means "comparable" to current standards, regardless of the technology at the time, the intent I beleive is that "we" keep up with "them".

There is no way "we" could keep up with "them" at all. It would take even a good heavily gun concentrated southern area a few days to get conquered should our government be so inclined. What good does a gun do when a drone comes in and blows up your house?



2012-12-23 10:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
JoshR - 2012-12-23 10:30 AM
hrliles - 2012-12-23 9:10 AM

Yeah, lets make guns illegal but legalize drugs.  Well. we are half way there.  (sarcasm intended)

Seriously, if you amend the 2nd, then you should go ahead and do the same with the 1st and 4th, not that thay aren't infringed on already but you can see where this is headed.  I'll fight standing up vs having my hands tied and bound!

I do believe "well armed milita" means "comparable" to current standards, regardless of the technology at the time, the intent I beleive is that "we" keep up with "them".

There is no way "we" could keep up with "them" at all. It would take even a good heavily gun concentrated southern area a few days to get conquered should our government be so inclined. What good does a gun do when a drone comes in and blows up your house?

Southern area of what? Idaho?
2012-12-23 11:44 AM
in reply to: #4545847

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Hold on. Looking for my 10 foot pole ......
2012-12-23 11:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment

Think you are a little off there Josh.  Thanks for implying it's a Southern thing?  In history we can examine the facts to see time after time goverments and regimes go after the weakest and no control is never enough.  Do you think Pelosi, Kennedy, Reid, Jessie Helms, Waters, Rangle, and others like them serve or served becuase they wanted to be a "public servant?  It's about power and they never have all they want, so they come back for more.  My friend I have been on soil where their governments kill, starve, rape, and oppress, in today's world, and even then they thought the people were unruly for fighting back, in most cases with pea shooters.

I beleive every man, woman, and child would defend our right for freedom to the extent of giving their life regardless of where they are from in this country.  We are to believe that our Government will keep us safe?  I want to be safe from them and our Founding Fathers clearly said we should and gave us a gift called the Counstiution to do so.  You know why, because they my friend had to fight to get their freedom.  They knew what oppression was.  You have had the luxury of their sacrafices and every solidier that came after to keep it.  A little here and a little there and we will be fighting for it again, and yes, the "we" may not have technology or power a tyrinical government may came at us with, but I will not stand there "if" that day comes and hope while under seige those that would attack us intend to play pattycake with me later.

What happend In Newtown was as horrible as it can be.  I ache for each family. 

2012-12-23 11:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Sure.....one of the amendments included in the "Bill of Rights" will be changed/repealed.....sure it will. Laughing
2012-12-23 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
ChrisM - 2012-12-23 9:44 AM

Hold on. Looking for my 10 foot pole ......





2012-12-23 12:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Hell no!
2012-12-23 12:33 PM
in reply to: #4545864

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
oldrunner - 2012-12-23 10:09 AM. If you wanted to be bulletproof in 1787 you put on a heavy coat.

Tell that to the 70,000 casualties in the American Revolution.

Who knows what the framers would think of our country today. I don't think weapons in public hands would be high on their list of things to freak about.

My company in the Marine Corps was armed organically with dozens of weapons that are not owned by private citizens (AT4s, SMAWs, Mk19s, M2 .50 cals with HE, Mortars, SAWs, M203s, C4, Anti Personel and Anti-Tank mines) proving there are already limits of reasonable armament.

Edited by GomesBolt 2012-12-23 12:42 PM

2012-12-23 12:33 PM
in reply to: #4545847

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment

in·al·ien·a·ble  

/in'ale?n?b?l/
Adjective

Unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor: "inalienable human rights".

 

I'm not so sure you understand the concept.

2012-12-23 12:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment

Hey, it'll be fun!  We can repeal the 2nd Amendment, then we can go door to door collecting guns whether people want to give them up or not, thereby nullifying the 4th Amendment.... and if you don't like it and want to complain via your 1st Amendment rights you can shut the hell up against a govt. that would control all of the guns.

Yeah.......we'll repeal the 2nd.....sure. Laughing

2012-12-23 12:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment

Tripolar - 2012-12-23 7:58 AM I've heard it countless times now, in many different places, that it would be impossible to make guns illegal, either by repealing or changing the 2nd Amendment. That this right is so old and traditional and ingrained in the US that it would be unthinkable. Well, as a country we've made changes to the Constitution before, once there was enough popular support. As future generations grow up, popular opinion tends to shift. We're seeing this happen in our lifetimes with gay rights. Who's to say what the attitudes will be about guns 100 years from now? So, here's a completely informal poll. Do you think the 2nd Amendment is no longer appropriate for modern-day America, and should be changed or repealed to make private gun ownership illegal?

Good luck finding 38 states that will ratify it. I would say that even if 60-70 percent of Americans were in favor of it, there could very well still be at least 13 states that would vote against it. It would have to be an overwhelming majority of the country.



Edited by uclamatt2007 2012-12-23 12:48 PM


2012-12-23 1:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment

This is what makes me so mad about our current political flavors.... America was set on course by the very things most despised today. We are a free nation and we drew people from every corner of the world that wanted to make their own destiny, to be FREE. They came here and did just that... took the incredible opportunities and made this nation the greatest country on Earth. We had ample resources in both materials and energy. We turned that into the most industrialized nation to ever exist. During two world wars we put forward a global military might never before seen. We have seen form the past that as soon as someone else sees a opportunity, they will most certainly strike.

Through the blood and sweat of millions of our predecessors, we have arrived where we are today. A country that enjoys supreme military security that no country would ever think of invading us. We have a power system second to none in the world. And we still have the rights afforded to us to be free, to make our own destiny, and if that shall be challenged, we have the ability to stop it.

Yet what do we have... a significant portion of this country that gets to sit on their rears and complain about the incredible gifts they have just for being born here. They can sit on their Apple computers and blog about how horrible our energy is, how horrible capitalism is, how terrible it is someone owns a gun, How horrible the military industrial complex is, and how the Federal government must have more power so they can give everything to those unwilling to earn it. They want to complain about how the Founding Fathers never envisioned such a place and the Constitution is a "Living Document".

The Founding Father most certainly envisioned exactly where we are... a Federal Government too powerful and able to take away rights they said they could not. A body of people willing to give up their freedom in exchange of being tended to like sheep. They warned about this. They told us exactly what would happen. They fought against it, and they set out a Constitution to prevent it. You can't have personal freedoms, without the freedom of press, and the freedom to bear arms... without those two, the rest are not worth the paper they are written on. As it stands... we no longer have "the press" our founders envisioned... being the public watchdogs to keep the Federal government in check... you have a media complicit in giving them more power... and now they are complicit in leading the charge for more gun control with regular scary misinformation. Call conservative Americans (literal not political term) paranoid backward hicks all you want.... but don't take for granted how deep the desire to be free runs in this country, and what they are willing to do to preserve it. I can't imagine civil war in my life time and see no reason to spend time discussing it. But I certainly could envision another civil war in this country, and with how divided the political climate is these days... I can see it getting there.

The funniest thing of all is the idea that some "rebels" could never stand up to the Federal government with it's military and equipment... uhhh... hello... who do you think is in the military??? It certainly isn't a "Occupy" member full time student at 30 sipping Starbucks and blogging on his iphone!!! What exactly do you think will happen when a sitting President gives the order to those troops to fire against fellow Americans????

2012-12-23 1:11 PM
in reply to: #4545847

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
The Constitution can be amended in one of two ways. First, amendment can take place by a vote of two-thirds of both the House of Representatives and the Senate followed by a ratification of three-fourths of the various state legislatures (ratification by thirty-eight states would be required to ratify an amendment today). This first method of amendment is the only one used to date. Second, the Constitution might be amended by a Convention called for this purpose by two-thirds of the state legislatures, if the Convention's proposed amendments are later ratified by three-fourths of the state legislatures.



Have at it.

2012-12-23 1:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
There wouldn't be enough popular support for it to happen right now. But in 100 years? Who knows... The amendments in the "Bill of Rights" are just like any other amendment - they CAN be changed if the will of the people so dictates. The will for that kind of change does not exist, at least not at this time. But who knows what the will of the people may be a century from now. Personally, it's hard for me to see a point when there would be enough support for a repeal, but public sentiment can and does change on many issues, so it's really impossible to know what the distant future may hold.
2012-12-23 1:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
powerman - 2012-12-23 2:06 PM

This is what makes me so mad about our current political flavors.... America was set on course by the very things most despised today. We are a free nation and we drew people from every corner of the world that wanted to make their own destiny, to be FREE. They came here and did just that... took the incredible opportunities and made this nation the greatest country on Earth. We had ample resources in both materials and energy. We turned that into the most industrialized nation to ever exist. During two world wars we put forward a global military might never before seen. We have seen form the past that as soon as someone else sees a opportunity, they will most certainly strike.

Through the blood and sweat of millions of our predecessors, we have arrived where we are today. A country that enjoys supreme military security that no country would ever think of invading us. We have a power system second to none in the world. And we still have the rights afforded to us to be free, to make our own destiny, and if that shall be challenged, we have the ability to stop it.

Yet what do we have... a significant portion of this country that gets to sit on their rears and complain about the incredible gifts they have just for being born here. They can sit on their Apple computers and blog about how horrible our energy is, how horrible capitalism is, how terrible it is someone owns a gun, How horrible the military industrial complex is, and how the Federal government must have more power so they can give everything to those unwilling to earn it. They want to complain about how the Founding Fathers never envisioned such a place and the Constitution is a "Living Document".

The Founding Father most certainly envisioned exactly where we are... a Federal Government too powerful and able to take away rights they said they could not. A body of people willing to give up their freedom in exchange of being tended to like sheep. They warned about this. They told us exactly what would happen. They fought against it, and they set out a Constitution to prevent it. You can't have personal freedoms, without the freedom of press, and the freedom to bear arms... without those two, the rest are not worth the paper they are written on. As it stands... we no longer have "the press" our founders envisioned... being the public watchdogs to keep the Federal government in check... you have a media complicit in giving them more power... and now they are complicit in leading the charge for more gun control with regular scary misinformation. Call conservative Americans (literal not political term) paranoid backward hicks all you want.... but don't take for granted how deep the desire to be free runs in this country, and what they are willing to do to preserve it. I can't imagine civil war in my life time and see no reason to spend time discussing it. But I certainly could envision another civil war in this country, and with how divided the political climate is these days... I can see it getting there.

The funniest thing of all is the idea that some "rebels" could never stand up to the Federal government with it's military and equipment... uhhh... hello... who do you think is in the military??? It certainly isn't a "Occupy" member full time student at 30 sipping Starbucks and blogging on his iphone!!! What exactly do you think will happen when a sitting President gives the order to those troops to fire against fellow Americans????



Where did all that rage come from?? I thought we were just having a hypothetical discussion about the VERY hypothetical idea of repealing or changing the second amendment. You know there's no way in h3ll that's going to happen... Why so angry??
2012-12-23 1:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
JoshR - 2012-12-23 8:30 AM
hrliles - 2012-12-23 9:10 AM

Yeah, lets make guns illegal but legalize drugs.  Well. we are half way there.  (sarcasm intended)

Seriously, if you amend the 2nd, then you should go ahead and do the same with the 1st and 4th, not that thay aren't infringed on already but you can see where this is headed.  I'll fight standing up vs having my hands tied and bound!

I do believe "well armed milita" means "comparable" to current standards, regardless of the technology at the time, the intent I beleive is that "we" keep up with "them".

There is no way "we" could keep up with "them" at all. It would take even a good heavily gun concentrated southern area a few days to get conquered should our government be so inclined. What good does a gun do when a drone comes in and blows up your house?

Wow, this sounds peachy and civilized.    Your comments pretty much sum up this debate.  "You", want to take our guns to control "us".  "We"  want to keep our guns under the spirit of the constitutional ammendment so as not to be controlled by "you".  On this note, I think I'll hang on to my right to bear arms.



2012-12-23 1:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
jsnowash - 2012-12-23 12:23 PM Where did all that rage come from?? I thought we were just having a hypothetical discussion about the VERY hypothetical idea of repealing or changing the second amendment. You know there's no way in h3ll that's going to happen... Why so angry??

First... I don't see why you read that with so much "rage". These are just some basic truths at this time.

I am mad for the same reason others are just at the general political climate these days. I personally think the Federal Government is too powerful. So that is part of this discussion about "changing" an inalienable right. See above for definition of "inalienable". Personally, I think we need less Federal Government, not more.

Currently, there is a growing feeling in this country of rebellion. I assure you, I am not part of it... but I know it exists as topic of discussion. I personally could not fathom Americans TODAY taking arms against each other. We had our civil war. We are the UNITED States and I can't imagine that not being anymore. I personally feel a move to secede is possible... but our elected officials better work something out before it ever gets to that.

But the 2A is not something that gets "amended"...it is an inalienable right... just like speech and religion. After that if you want to prohibit alcohol or let women vote, fine... make an amendment. Obviously, I am not talking law... that it can't be changed... but that was the intent of the Bill of rights... that no government has the right to take away what we are born with as free people.

So... I'm not angry, and I am not sitting in any "meeting".... but you simply can't have a "discussion" about changing or repealing the 2A... without having the logical follow up discussion of how to deal with the civil war. If you do not understand that, then you do not understand this country very well. It isn't anger, it's just the truth.



Edited by powerman 2012-12-23 1:51 PM
2012-12-23 2:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
JoshR - 2012-12-23 9:30 AM
hrliles - 2012-12-23 9:10 AM

Yeah, lets make guns illegal but legalize drugs.  Well. we are half way there.  (sarcasm intended)

Seriously, if you amend the 2nd, then you should go ahead and do the same with the 1st and 4th, not that thay aren't infringed on already but you can see where this is headed.  I'll fight standing up vs having my hands tied and bound!

I do believe "well armed milita" means "comparable" to current standards, regardless of the technology at the time, the intent I beleive is that "we" keep up with "them".

There is no way "we" could keep up with "them" at all. It would take even a good heavily gun concentrated southern area a few days to get conquered should our government be so inclined. What good does a gun do when a drone comes in and blows up your house?

Again... who do you think is operating the drone... take a guess on if they are pro 2A, or anti-2A. You honestly think a President could just order the military to "conquer" Americans that don't want to give up their 2A rights?

2012-12-23 2:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Sorry - it's that internet thing... hard to tell someone's tone from an online post. It came across as angry to me - sorry if I misinterpreted...

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the mood of the country ("growing feeling of rebellion"). As I said, there's no way to know what the future holds, but I very much doubt we're in danger of civil war erupting in the US any more than there is in any other first world nation... I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one, but I just don't see that as a realistic threat...
2012-12-23 2:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment

jsnowash - 2012-12-23 1:04 PM Sorry - it's that internet thing... hard to tell someone's tone from an online post. It came across as angry to me - sorry if I misinterpreted... I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the mood of the country ("growing feeling of rebellion"). As I said, there's no way to know what the future holds, but I very much doubt we're in danger of civil war erupting in the US any more than there is in any other first world nation... I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one, but I just don't see that as a realistic threat...

I'm guessing you don't hang out with a lot of pro 2A folks.

I do... and even I get tired of the "revolution" talk. It's not going to happen. And as I said... if we as a people of these United States can't come up with a solution before we take up arms against each other... then we really are in trouble. That too is one of our defining qualities... the peaceful transition of power regardless of our differences.

But.. if you want to talk of "hypothetically" repealing the 2A.... then you are going to get an earful of the "hypothetical" civil war.

Trust me it's all good JS... THIS, is what makes this country great... the free exchange of ideas without reprisal from government. The ability to have a discussion regardless of our differences and still be united at the end of the day. It isn't JUST the 2A... that is only a small part... but it is as woven into our society as any other freedom we enjoy. You can't undo it without unraveling the whole thing.



Edited by powerman 2012-12-23 2:14 PM
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