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Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
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2012-12-23 2:16 PM
in reply to: #4545847

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Somehow, I don't think the Founding Fathers envisioned this threat!





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2012-12-23 2:22 PM
in reply to: #4545847

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
If Greece can get through their current crisis without a civil war so can you guys. I lived there for five years I'm married to a Greek. A more emotional passionately political bunch you'll never meet. A nation so fiercely proud of their heritage and freedom rights and with a helluva financial crisis and a recent history of civil war they have united as a people rather than divided. I believe if your government tries to change the constitution radically it will be met with a resistance from a United States of America. Once you start messing with the very foundations of your country I think every American be they pro or anti guns will be just as outraged.

Edited by jobaxas 2012-12-23 2:25 PM
2012-12-23 3:30 PM
in reply to: #4546010

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment

jsnowash - 2012-12-23 1:14 PM There wouldn't be enough popular support for it to happen right now. But in 100 years? Who knows... The amendments in the "Bill of Rights" are just like any other amendment - they CAN be changed if the will of the people so dictates. The will for that kind of change does not exist, at least not at this time. But who knows what the will of the people may be a century from now. Personally, it's hard for me to see a point when there would be enough support for a repeal, but public sentiment can and does change on many issues, so it's really impossible to know what the distant future may hold.

That's why I will take my grandson hunting, and give him a gun of his own to hunt with by the time he is 10, and why I will pass my Grandfather's guns on to him when it comes time......it is my hope that he will hold our heritage as dear as I do.  I will do all I can to see that he does.

You need to know that I am not nearly alone.  

On another note, my twin daughters have asked to learn to shoot....they are 12 and want to go trap/skeet shooting....of course I will take them!  Maybe when they are comfortable with it I will teach them to shoot my handguns.  Then they can teach their children. Laughing



Edited by Left Brain 2012-12-23 3:30 PM
2012-12-23 3:37 PM
in reply to: #4545847

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

2012-12-23 3:47 PM
in reply to: #4546114

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 3:37 PM

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

I don't put any pressure on anyone to do anything.....just don't try to take what the Constitution of my country affords me.......it's part of why I like it here so much....and why my Great-grandparents came here.

Besides....what "change" are you talking about that we pressure other countries about?  If you don't mind, could you articulate those "changes"?

And one other thing.....our border is not "arbitrary".....try attacking it and see for yourself. Laughing  



Edited by Left Brain 2012-12-23 3:54 PM
2012-12-23 3:56 PM
in reply to: #4546123

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Left Brain - 2012-12-23 9:47 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 3:37 PM

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

I don't put any pressure on anyone to do anything.....just don't try to take what the Constitution of my country affords me.......it's part of why I like it here so much.

Besides....what "change" are you talking about that we pressure other countries about?  If you don't mind, could you articulate those "changes"?

And one other thing.....our border is not "arbitrary".....try attacking it and see for yourself. Laughing  

Fair enough, I think it's too much of a diversion from the OP's intention and I don't want to derail a thread.  The changes I had in mind were related to political models other than a democracy (supporting through the provision of arms forces to bring down dictatorships) and the various historical examples of where the US has become involved in international disputes with the most recent being Gaza I guess.

As I said, I'm not intending to be inflammatory but recognise it's probably too sensitive for it not to be so I'll leave it.

I think we 'attacked' the current borders before pretty successfully and set the place up for you Tongue out



2012-12-23 3:58 PM
in reply to: #4546114

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 2:37 PM

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

I am not a citizen of the globe. I am a citizen of the Untied States of America. There is nothing arbitrary about it. There is not a country on this planet that thinks their border is arbitrary.

2012-12-23 4:05 PM
in reply to: #4546132

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
powerman - 2012-12-23 9:58 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 2:37 PM

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

I am not a citizen of the globe. I am a citizen of the Untied States of America. There is nothing arbitrary about it. There is not a country on this planet that thinks their border is arbitrary.

Your citizenship of the USA is completely arbitrary!  You had no influence over it.  And borders are most often caused by geographic features and wars between societies that don't even exist any more.

2012-12-23 4:12 PM
in reply to: #4546129

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 2:56 PM
Left Brain - 2012-12-23 9:47 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 3:37 PM

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

I don't put any pressure on anyone to do anything.....just don't try to take what the Constitution of my country affords me.......it's part of why I like it here so much.

Besides....what "change" are you talking about that we pressure other countries about?  If you don't mind, could you articulate those "changes"?

And one other thing.....our border is not "arbitrary".....try attacking it and see for yourself. Laughing  

Fair enough, I think it's too much of a diversion from the OP's intention and I don't want to derail a thread.  The changes I had in mind were related to political models other than a democracy (supporting through the provision of arms forces to bring down dictatorships) and the various historical examples of where the US has become involved in international disputes with the most recent being Gaza I guess.

As I said, I'm not intending to be inflammatory but recognise it's probably too sensitive for it not to be so I'll leave it.

I think we 'attacked' the current borders before pretty successfully and set the place up for you Tongue out

And not to continue the derail... but I do think it is relevant... to the discussion of repealing the 2A. This idea that mankind is sooo much more evolved that 200 years ago... That this country has "moved passed" the idea of guns and violence.

Man has been killing each other for 10s of thousands of years. Survival has been winning for 100s of thousands of years. On the streets of America somebody just got robbed by one person exerting their will over another with force. Some will die today for the same reason. Women are raped on a daily basis. Kids are killed. Countries invade other countries. People fly planes into buildings, governments gas their own citizens, and people overthrew their government...

But ya... we are soooo evolved past all that stuff and the 2A. We live in a real Garden of Eden where all global citizens are respected and loved. I can pretty much guarantee you the same things will be going on 100 years from now.

I'm not trying to argue... I want to live in a world where we have moved past the need for guns. Truly. That isn't the world we live in. People like to take a snap shot of now and think it is so different than in the past... but "people" are the same people we always have been for the last 10,000 years. You and I can agree we do not want to conduct our lives based on violence, but I can promise you not everyone agrees to that.

2012-12-23 4:16 PM
in reply to: #4546142

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 3:05 PM
powerman - 2012-12-23 9:58 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 2:37 PM

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

I am not a citizen of the globe. I am a citizen of the Untied States of America. There is nothing arbitrary about it. There is not a country on this planet that thinks their border is arbitrary.

Your citizenship of the USA is completely arbitrary!  You had no influence over it.  And borders are most often caused by geographic features and wars between societies that don't even exist any more.

That is where you are wrong... I served in the military. The one standing to prevent such things. Do you think if we disbanded our armies after the Revolution that our borders or our society would look the same today? Do you honestly think you would be here having this conversation if our military did not stand watch for over 200 years now? I still pay taxes for it, and I still support it. And it is still keeping me free.

2012-12-23 4:31 PM
in reply to: #4546155

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
powerman - 2012-12-23 10:16 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 3:05 PM
powerman - 2012-12-23 9:58 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 2:37 PM

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

I am not a citizen of the globe. I am a citizen of the Untied States of America. There is nothing arbitrary about it. There is not a country on this planet that thinks their border is arbitrary.

Your citizenship of the USA is completely arbitrary!  You had no influence over it.  And borders are most often caused by geographic features and wars between societies that don't even exist any more.

That is where you are wrong... I served in the military. The one standing to prevent such things. Do you think if we disbanded our armies after the Revolution that our borders or our society would look the same today? Do you honestly think you would be here having this conversation if our military did not stand watch for over 200 years now? I still pay taxes for it, and I still support it. And it is still keeping me free.

Really like your post before this one.  Some really good points.

I don't think society would look the same but the whole reason for this thread is that there is a huge fracture in society so perhaps a change wouldn't be such a bad thing.  I'm not saying that change is as radical as bringing down borders or disbanding any military (after all, if it wasn't for the US military I'd probably be called Hans) but I do think that we could be much better at learning from other communities and cultures that clinging onto our own for dear life as if doing otherwise was a sign of weakness.



2012-12-23 4:53 PM
in reply to: #4545903

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
mdg2003 - 2012-12-23 9:55 AM
JoshR - 2012-12-23 10:30 AM
hrliles - 2012-12-23 9:10 AM

Yeah, lets make guns illegal but legalize drugs.  Well. we are half way there.  (sarcasm intended)

Seriously, if you amend the 2nd, then you should go ahead and do the same with the 1st and 4th, not that thay aren't infringed on already but you can see where this is headed.  I'll fight standing up vs having my hands tied and bound!

I do believe "well armed milita" means "comparable" to current standards, regardless of the technology at the time, the intent I beleive is that "we" keep up with "them".

There is no way "we" could keep up with "them" at all. It would take even a good heavily gun concentrated southern area a few days to get conquered should our government be so inclined. What good does a gun do when a drone comes in and blows up your house?

Southern area of what? Idaho?

 

Sorry, I was implying the south has more guns than the north, that's all. My point was even in an area with a heavily armed population, wouldn't stand a chance if "they" really  wanted to.

2012-12-23 4:54 PM
in reply to: #4546171

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 3:31 PM
powerman - 2012-12-23 10:16 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 3:05 PM
powerman - 2012-12-23 9:58 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 2:37 PM

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

I am not a citizen of the globe. I am a citizen of the Untied States of America. There is nothing arbitrary about it. There is not a country on this planet that thinks their border is arbitrary.

Your citizenship of the USA is completely arbitrary!  You had no influence over it.  And borders are most often caused by geographic features and wars between societies that don't even exist any more.

That is where you are wrong... I served in the military. The one standing to prevent such things. Do you think if we disbanded our armies after the Revolution that our borders or our society would look the same today? Do you honestly think you would be here having this conversation if our military did not stand watch for over 200 years now? I still pay taxes for it, and I still support it. And it is still keeping me free.

Really like your post before this one.  Some really good points.

I don't think society would look the same but the whole reason for this thread is that there is a huge fracture in society so perhaps a change wouldn't be such a bad thing.  I'm not saying that change is as radical as bringing down borders or disbanding any military (after all, if it wasn't for the US military I'd probably be called Hans) but I do think that we could be much better at learning from other communities and cultures that clinging onto our own for dear life as if doing otherwise was a sign of weakness.

In general I agree.... as society gets bigger, and we are social animals... we learn to get along. Obviously we live in a "civilized" country where we honor each others rights. This isn't a free for all and neither is the rest of the world. There are consequences to every action. I have way too many things to do to include fighting for my life all day and I don't want yours.

But obviously, to ignore the other side of ourselves, and those in the world that are still more than happy to take what they want, well, that's just being a little unrealistic. There was a quote I saw once but could never find it... the gist is... there will always be those willing to take from those that are not. Not everyone agrees to play by the same rules...

On a side rant.. I can't stand listening to all the gansta rappers talking about how they will just kill anyone for no reason because they are so tough... hu... no you won't, or you would be on death row right now... and you would not be taking about it... you would just be doing it... I can't stand that stuff! With 6 billion people on the planet... that kind of mind set isn't going to get you real far... but obviously, they are free to try.

2012-12-23 5:03 PM
in reply to: #4546185

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
JoshR - 2012-12-23 4:53 PM
mdg2003 - 2012-12-23 9:55 AM
JoshR - 2012-12-23 10:30 AM
hrliles - 2012-12-23 9:10 AM

Yeah, lets make guns illegal but legalize drugs.  Well. we are half way there.  (sarcasm intended)

Seriously, if you amend the 2nd, then you should go ahead and do the same with the 1st and 4th, not that thay aren't infringed on already but you can see where this is headed.  I'll fight standing up vs having my hands tied and bound!

I do believe "well armed milita" means "comparable" to current standards, regardless of the technology at the time, the intent I beleive is that "we" keep up with "them".

There is no way "we" could keep up with "them" at all. It would take even a good heavily gun concentrated southern area a few days to get conquered should our government be so inclined. What good does a gun do when a drone comes in and blows up your house?

Southern area of what? Idaho?

 

Sorry, I was implying the south has more guns than the north, that's all. My point was even in an area with a heavily armed population, wouldn't stand a chance if "they" really  wanted to.

And that's wrong.  You are assuming that those in our military would automatically adhere to "killing their own" if the govt. ordered it.  I've got news for you.....there are plenty of pilots, drone operators, tank operators, etc. who would NOT side with a govt. intent on pushing it's will on free people.  Do you know what it would take to gain a jet for the "other side"....or a tank, or a drone, or munitions of any type, with plenty of people to use them?  That's right......a gun.

I always go back to pictures of thousands of Jews being herded into rail cars by a few dozen men with guns.  No way, never again.  I'm not Jewish, but it's not happening to me or my family without a fight, and it obviously won't happen to the Jews, again, without a fight.

Here, I'll get us back on track with the OP.....repeal the 2A?  Good luck! Laughing

2012-12-23 5:19 PM
in reply to: #4546152

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
powerman - 2012-12-23 2:12 PM

Dan-L - 2012-12-23 2:56 PM
Left Brain - 2012-12-23 9:47 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 3:37 PM

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

I don't put any pressure on anyone to do anything.....just don't try to take what the Constitution of my country affords me.......it's part of why I like it here so much.

Besides....what "change" are you talking about that we pressure other countries about?  If you don't mind, could you articulate those "changes"?

And one other thing.....our border is not "arbitrary".....try attacking it and see for yourself. Laughing  

Fair enough, I think it's too much of a diversion from the OP's intention and I don't want to derail a thread.  The changes I had in mind were related to political models other than a democracy (supporting through the provision of arms forces to bring down dictatorships) and the various historical examples of where the US has become involved in international disputes with the most recent being Gaza I guess.

As I said, I'm not intending to be inflammatory but recognise it's probably too sensitive for it not to be so I'll leave it.

I think we 'attacked' the current borders before pretty successfully and set the place up for you Tongue out

And not to continue the derail... but I do think it is relevant... to the discussion of repealing the 2A. This idea that mankind is sooo much more evolved that 200 years ago...That this country has "moved passed" the idea of guns and violence.

Man has been killing each other for 10s of thousands of years. Survival has been winning for 100s of thousands of years. On the streets of America somebody just got robbed by one person exerting their will over another with force. Some will die today for the same reason. Women are raped on a daily basis. Kids are killed. Countries invade other countries. People fly planes into buildings, governments gas their own citizens, and people overthrew their government...

But ya... we are soooo evolved past all that stuff and the 2A. We live in a real Garden of Eden where all global citizens are respected and loved. I can pretty much guarantee you the same things will be going on 100 years from now.

I'm not trying to argue... I want to live in a world where we have moved past the need for guns. Truly. That isn't the world we live in. People like to take a snap shot of now and think it is so different than in the past... but "people" are the same people we always have been for the last 10,000 years. You and I can agree we do not want to conduct our lives based on violence, but I can promise you not everyone agrees to that.



I never claimed that our society has moved past violence to a Garden of Eden. In fact, I think we have devolved a bit, to where not as much value is placed on life as it once was. Further, as the population continues to increase, and new gun owners don't necessarily share the same responsible and mature mindset as most existing gun owners, it will invariably lead to more violence and death.

Also, in reply to an earlier comment, it's a big mistake to assume that if someone is in favor of making private gun ownership illegal, he/she doesn't believe in freedom, a strong military, the free market, or other longstanding American ideals. I realize it's convenient and makes it simpler to vilify the other side if you group all possible stereotypes together, of course. But the world doesn't always fit into neat categories.
2012-12-23 5:34 PM
in reply to: #4546216

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Tripolar - 2012-12-23 5:19 PM
powerman - 2012-12-23 2:12 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 2:56 PM
Left Brain - 2012-12-23 9:47 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 3:37 PM

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

I don't put any pressure on anyone to do anything.....just don't try to take what the Constitution of my country affords me.......it's part of why I like it here so much.

Besides....what "change" are you talking about that we pressure other countries about?  If you don't mind, could you articulate those "changes"?

And one other thing.....our border is not "arbitrary".....try attacking it and see for yourself. Laughing  

Fair enough, I think it's too much of a diversion from the OP's intention and I don't want to derail a thread.  The changes I had in mind were related to political models other than a democracy (supporting through the provision of arms forces to bring down dictatorships) and the various historical examples of where the US has become involved in international disputes with the most recent being Gaza I guess.

As I said, I'm not intending to be inflammatory but recognise it's probably too sensitive for it not to be so I'll leave it.

I think we 'attacked' the current borders before pretty successfully and set the place up for you Tongue out

And not to continue the derail... but I do think it is relevant... to the discussion of repealing the 2A. This idea that mankind is sooo much more evolved that 200 years ago...That this country has "moved passed" the idea of guns and violence.

Man has been killing each other for 10s of thousands of years. Survival has been winning for 100s of thousands of years. On the streets of America somebody just got robbed by one person exerting their will over another with force. Some will die today for the same reason. Women are raped on a daily basis. Kids are killed. Countries invade other countries. People fly planes into buildings, governments gas their own citizens, and people overthrew their government...

But ya... we are soooo evolved past all that stuff and the 2A. We live in a real Garden of Eden where all global citizens are respected and loved. I can pretty much guarantee you the same things will be going on 100 years from now.

I'm not trying to argue... I want to live in a world where we have moved past the need for guns. Truly. That isn't the world we live in. People like to take a snap shot of now and think it is so different than in the past... but "people" are the same people we always have been for the last 10,000 years. You and I can agree we do not want to conduct our lives based on violence, but I can promise you not everyone agrees to that.

I never claimed that our society has moved past violence to a Garden of Eden. In fact, I think we have devolved a bit, to where not as much value is placed on life as it once was. Further, as the population continues to increase, and new gun owners don't necessarily share the same responsible and mature mindset as most existing gun owners, it will invariably lead to more violence and death. Also, in reply to an earlier comment, it's a big mistake to assume that if someone is in favor of making private gun ownership illegal, he/she doesn't believe in freedom, a strong military, the free market, or other longstanding American ideals. I realize it's convenient and makes it simpler to vilify the other side if you group all possible stereotypes together, of course. But the world doesn't always fit into neat categories.

That is EXACTLY what you are doing if you don't think I, as a private citizen, can responsibly own guns of any type.  

This is why your arguments won't hold water with gun owners........we just laugh.  I know most anti-gun people hate that, but truly, we laugh at you.  We laugh at your ignorance, your emotion, and your inability to apply common sense to the issue.  If you can find your way through those things to come up with some ideas that have a chance of working, we'll listen....we HATE innocent people being killed.  But you MUST address the issue from the root of the problem...and the root of the problem doesn't include the absolutely HUGE majority of gun owners.



2012-12-23 5:39 PM
in reply to: #4546216

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Tripolar - 2012-12-23 4:19 PM
powerman - 2012-12-23 2:12 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 2:56 PM
Left Brain - 2012-12-23 9:47 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 3:37 PM

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

I don't put any pressure on anyone to do anything.....just don't try to take what the Constitution of my country affords me.......it's part of why I like it here so much.

Besides....what "change" are you talking about that we pressure other countries about?  If you don't mind, could you articulate those "changes"?

And one other thing.....our border is not "arbitrary".....try attacking it and see for yourself. Laughing  

Fair enough, I think it's too much of a diversion from the OP's intention and I don't want to derail a thread.  The changes I had in mind were related to political models other than a democracy (supporting through the provision of arms forces to bring down dictatorships) and the various historical examples of where the US has become involved in international disputes with the most recent being Gaza I guess.

As I said, I'm not intending to be inflammatory but recognise it's probably too sensitive for it not to be so I'll leave it.

I think we 'attacked' the current borders before pretty successfully and set the place up for you Tongue out

And not to continue the derail... but I do think it is relevant... to the discussion of repealing the 2A. This idea that mankind is sooo much more evolved that 200 years ago...That this country has "moved passed" the idea of guns and violence.

Man has been killing each other for 10s of thousands of years. Survival has been winning for 100s of thousands of years. On the streets of America somebody just got robbed by one person exerting their will over another with force. Some will die today for the same reason. Women are raped on a daily basis. Kids are killed. Countries invade other countries. People fly planes into buildings, governments gas their own citizens, and people overthrew their government...

But ya... we are soooo evolved past all that stuff and the 2A. We live in a real Garden of Eden where all global citizens are respected and loved. I can pretty much guarantee you the same things will be going on 100 years from now.

I'm not trying to argue... I want to live in a world where we have moved past the need for guns. Truly. That isn't the world we live in. People like to take a snap shot of now and think it is so different than in the past... but "people" are the same people we always have been for the last 10,000 years. You and I can agree we do not want to conduct our lives based on violence, but I can promise you not everyone agrees to that.

I never claimed that our society has moved past violence to a Garden of Eden. In fact, I think we have devolved a bit, to where not as much value is placed on life as it once was. Further, as the population continues to increase, and new gun owners don't necessarily share the same responsible and mature mindset as most existing gun owners, it will invariably lead to more violence and death. Also, in reply to an earlier comment, it's a big mistake to assume that if someone is in favor of making private gun ownership illegal, he/she doesn't believe in freedom, a strong military, the free market, or other longstanding American ideals. I realize it's convenient and makes it simpler to vilify the other side if you group all possible stereotypes together, of course. But the world doesn't always fit into neat categories.

You mean like stereotyping new gun owners as irresponsible and no real values... I see what you mean.

I never said those that do not agree with private ownership of guns thinks one certain way... what I do know is there is most certainly a group of people that do think that way and most certainly want to make guns illegal too.

2012-12-23 5:42 PM
in reply to: #4546224

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Left Brain - 2012-12-23 3:34 PM

Tripolar - 2012-12-23 5:19 PM
powerman - 2012-12-23 2:12 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 2:56 PM
Left Brain - 2012-12-23 9:47 PM
Dan-L - 2012-12-23 3:37 PM

I hope this doesn't come across as offensive because I really don't mean it to be - but isn't it a bit ironic that the USA puts a fair amount of pressure on foreign lands to 'change' but the concept of changing anything about the USA itself seems entirely implausible?  

Time moves on, societies evolve.  We now exist in a global society where the consequences of our actions aren't limited by arbitrary borders and seas.

I don't put any pressure on anyone to do anything.....just don't try to take what the Constitution of my country affords me.......it's part of why I like it here so much.

Besides....what "change" are you talking about that we pressure other countries about?  If you don't mind, could you articulate those "changes"?

And one other thing.....our border is not "arbitrary".....try attacking it and see for yourself. Laughing  

Fair enough, I think it's too much of a diversion from the OP's intention and I don't want to derail a thread.  The changes I had in mind were related to political models other than a democracy (supporting through the provision of arms forces to bring down dictatorships) and the various historical examples of where the US has become involved in international disputes with the most recent being Gaza I guess.

As I said, I'm not intending to be inflammatory but recognise it's probably too sensitive for it not to be so I'll leave it.

I think we 'attacked' the current borders before pretty successfully and set the place up for you Tongue out

And not to continue the derail... but I do think it is relevant... to the discussion of repealing the 2A. This idea that mankind is sooo much more evolved that 200 years ago...That this country has "moved passed" the idea of guns and violence.

Man has been killing each other for 10s of thousands of years. Survival has been winning for 100s of thousands of years. On the streets of America somebody just got robbed by one person exerting their will over another with force. Some will die today for the same reason. Women are raped on a daily basis. Kids are killed. Countries invade other countries. People fly planes into buildings, governments gas their own citizens, and people overthrew their government...

But ya... we are soooo evolved past all that stuff and the 2A. We live in a real Garden of Eden where all global citizens are respected and loved. I can pretty much guarantee you the same things will be going on 100 years from now.

I'm not trying to argue... I want to live in a world where we have moved past the need for guns. Truly. That isn't the world we live in. People like to take a snap shot of now and think it is so different than in the past... but "people" are the same people we always have been for the last 10,000 years. You and I can agree we do not want to conduct our lives based on violence, but I can promise you not everyone agrees to that.

I never claimed that our society has moved past violence to a Garden of Eden. In fact, I think we have devolved a bit, to where not as much value is placed on life as it once was. Further, as the population continues to increase, and new gun owners don't necessarily share the same responsible and mature mindset as most existing gun owners, it will invariably lead to more violence and death. Also, in reply to an earlier comment, it's a big mistake to assume that if someone is in favor of making private gun ownership illegal, he/she doesn't believe in freedom, a strong military, the free market, or other longstanding American ideals. I realize it's convenient and makes it simpler to vilify the other side if you group all possible stereotypes together, of course. But the world doesn't always fit into neat categories.

That is EXACTLY what you are doing if you don't think I, as a private citizen, can responsibly own guns of any type.  

This is why your arguments won't hold water with gun owners........we just laugh.  I know most anti-gun people hate that, but truly, we laugh at you.  We laugh at your ignorance, your emotion, and your inability to apply common sense to the issue.  If you can find your way through those things to come up with some ideas that have a chance of working, we'll listen....we HATE innocent people being killed.  But you MUST address the issue from the root of the problem...and the root of the problem doesn't include the absolutely HUGE majority of gun owners.



And that is not what I said. I said the majority of existing gun owners are responsible and mature about it. But as the population increases, and overall moral/ethical standards decline, not all gun owners will be just like you. They will include people who don't think of a gun as a last resort, but something they'll turn to more quickly. It is simply my opinion that as this continues, especially in densely populated areas, we will see increasing gun violence and death.
2012-12-23 5:44 PM
in reply to: #4545847

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
But by all means, if you feel the need to laugh at me and others like me for these opinions, feel free.
2012-12-23 5:49 PM
in reply to: #4545847

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment

I love COJ.  We all have to meet and have these dscussions face to face.  These are great topics.

Powerman and LeftBrain, I agree with you my friends.

Oh BTW, an issue with many people that do buy guns is that they have no clue how to strip and clean one.  Just like a car engine, you have to maintenance that baby to get distance.

News flash, don't show up at my door demanding any guns I may or may not have. 

Simper Fi



Edited by hrliles 2012-12-23 5:50 PM
2012-12-23 6:41 PM
in reply to: #4546199

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
Left Brain - 2012-12-23 4:03 PM
JoshR - 2012-12-23 4:53 PM
mdg2003 - 2012-12-23 9:55 AM
JoshR - 2012-12-23 10:30 AM
hrliles - 2012-12-23 9:10 AM

Yeah, lets make guns illegal but legalize drugs.  Well. we are half way there.  (sarcasm intended)

Seriously, if you amend the 2nd, then you should go ahead and do the same with the 1st and 4th, not that thay aren't infringed on already but you can see where this is headed.  I'll fight standing up vs having my hands tied and bound!

I do believe "well armed milita" means "comparable" to current standards, regardless of the technology at the time, the intent I beleive is that "we" keep up with "them".

There is no way "we" could keep up with "them" at all. It would take even a good heavily gun concentrated southern area a few days to get conquered should our government be so inclined. What good does a gun do when a drone comes in and blows up your house?

Southern area of what? Idaho?

 

Sorry, I was implying the south has more guns than the north, that's all. My point was even in an area with a heavily armed population, wouldn't stand a chance if "they" really  wanted to.

And that's wrong.  You are assuming that those in our military would automatically adhere to "killing their own" if the govt. ordered it.  I've got news for you.....there are plenty of pilots, drone operators, tank operators, etc. who would NOT side with a govt. intent on pushing it's will on free people.  Do you know what it would take to gain a jet for the "other side"....or a tank, or a drone, or munitions of any type, with plenty of people to use them?  That's right......a gun.

I always go back to pictures of thousands of Jews being herded into rail cars by a few dozen men with guns.  No way, never again.  I'm not Jewish, but it's not happening to me or my family without a fight, and it obviously won't happen to the Jews, again, without a fight.

Here, I'll get us back on track with the OP.....repeal the 2A?  Good luck! Laughing

 

I disagree. I think some people might disobey orders, but I think that enough people wouldn't that anyone who tried to steal military equipment would be subdued. Not to mention that once you get a vehicle you run into the most basic of military issues, supplies.



2012-12-23 6:55 PM
in reply to: #4546185

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
JoshR - 2012-12-23 4:53 PM
mdg2003 - 2012-12-23 9:55 AM
JoshR - 2012-12-23 10:30 AM
hrliles - 2012-12-23 9:10 AM

Yeah, lets make guns illegal but legalize drugs.  Well. we are half way there.  (sarcasm intended)

Seriously, if you amend the 2nd, then you should go ahead and do the same with the 1st and 4th, not that thay aren't infringed on already but you can see where this is headed.  I'll fight standing up vs having my hands tied and bound!

I do believe "well armed milita" means "comparable" to current standards, regardless of the technology at the time, the intent I beleive is that "we" keep up with "them".

There is no way "we" could keep up with "them" at all. It would take even a good heavily gun concentrated southern area a few days to get conquered should our government be so inclined. What good does a gun do when a drone comes in and blows up your house?

Southern area of what? Idaho?

 

Sorry, I was implying the south has more guns than the north, that's all. My point was even in an area with a heavily armed population, wouldn't stand a chance if "they" really  wanted to.

You might be wrong is what i was getting at. But yeah, as gomesbolt posted, the Armed Forces have a clear upper hand. Kind of like the redcoats had with muskets against poorly armed revolutionary forces. The musket was the baddest "assault type" weapon on the block at the time the those clueless founding fathers were drafting the docs we're debating. Hmm, maybe they did intend for us to have machine guns and grenade launchers and whatnot.....

2012-12-23 7:21 PM
in reply to: #4545847

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
I'm pretty sure in the state by state secession thread a few weeks ago, the southern states had a clear advantage. Don't make me resurrect that thread.

2012-12-23 7:42 PM
in reply to: #4546275

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment
JoshR - 2012-12-23 5:41 PM
Left Brain - 2012-12-23 4:03 PM
JoshR - 2012-12-23 4:53 PM
mdg2003 - 2012-12-23 9:55 AM
JoshR - 2012-12-23 10:30 AM
hrliles - 2012-12-23 9:10 AM

Yeah, lets make guns illegal but legalize drugs.  Well. we are half way there.  (sarcasm intended)

Seriously, if you amend the 2nd, then you should go ahead and do the same with the 1st and 4th, not that thay aren't infringed on already but you can see where this is headed.  I'll fight standing up vs having my hands tied and bound!

I do believe "well armed milita" means "comparable" to current standards, regardless of the technology at the time, the intent I beleive is that "we" keep up with "them".

There is no way "we" could keep up with "them" at all. It would take even a good heavily gun concentrated southern area a few days to get conquered should our government be so inclined. What good does a gun do when a drone comes in and blows up your house?

Southern area of what? Idaho?

 

Sorry, I was implying the south has more guns than the north, that's all. My point was even in an area with a heavily armed population, wouldn't stand a chance if "they" really  wanted to.

And that's wrong.  You are assuming that those in our military would automatically adhere to "killing their own" if the govt. ordered it.  I've got news for you.....there are plenty of pilots, drone operators, tank operators, etc. who would NOT side with a govt. intent on pushing it's will on free people.  Do you know what it would take to gain a jet for the "other side"....or a tank, or a drone, or munitions of any type, with plenty of people to use them?  That's right......a gun.

I always go back to pictures of thousands of Jews being herded into rail cars by a few dozen men with guns.  No way, never again.  I'm not Jewish, but it's not happening to me or my family without a fight, and it obviously won't happen to the Jews, again, without a fight.

Here, I'll get us back on track with the OP.....repeal the 2A?  Good luck! Laughing

 

I disagree. I think some people might disobey orders, but I think that enough people wouldn't that anyone who tried to steal military equipment would be subdued. Not to mention that once you get a vehicle you run into the most basic of military issues, supplies.

Come on now... seriously. For what ever reason, things are not going well. There is a clear disagreement with the Federal Government. The Federal government is talking of controlling the population with the U.S. military (not national guard)... even take the 2A thing... point is... this isn't some "lone wolf" stealing  a hummer with a M60. If we were to ever get to that point... I think you seriously underestimate the make up of the armed forces. I'm not saying that they want to overthrow the government... but the majority are of the "from my cold dead hands" mentality. That's all I'm saying. Not trying to "talk tough"... because even going there... well, it's unimaginable. I don't believe we would get there without figuring it out first.

 

But here is the real funny part... I realize I must seem like a real 2A nut here... I'm not. It's just the back drop of this site and the fact it is an interesting subject to me. I went back to my old gun forum that I have not been a part of in a while. Total "RED" site... I asked the question of what would they be willing to compromise on with gun control and recent events.... I was pretty much laughed off the site, my manhood and citizenship were questioned... and that indeed, "people like you are the problem". This is a VERY deep subject with a lot of passion behind it. It should not be taken lightly of what "hypothetically repealing the 2A" would be like. There are many in this country that already feel there is too much gun control.



Edited by powerman 2012-12-23 7:46 PM
2012-12-23 8:11 PM
in reply to: #4546231

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Subject: RE: Changing/Repealing the 2nd Amendment

Tripolar - 2012-12-23 5:44 PM But by all means, if you feel the need to laugh at me and others like me for these opinions, feel free.

Eh.....don't lose your sense of humor.  Remember, I come from a "gun culture"....we laugh at everyone who doesn't get it.  Trust me, we wouldn't hurt a fly if unprovoked, but rest assured, we run toward the gunfire if someone is in trouble.....it is what it is.

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