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2013-01-04 2:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
sand101 - 2013-01-04 8:07 PM

icemachineman - 2013-01-03 2:39 PM

I'm bi-lateral breathing, on every 3rd stroke which seems to be comfortable.

You're cheating yourself of the 50% more air you'd be getting if you'd breathe to one side.  You may seem to be comfortable, but the fact that you have to stop means you are driving yourself into oxygen debt (likely pace related, as well, but the breathing issue doesn't help).

The idea that bilateral breathing is somehow good for you is a myth.  

I've been swimming on an off pretty much all my life and I'd completely disagree with that as a broad brush statement.  For me (perhaps not for everybody) bilateral breathing gives my stroke much needed balance, stops my left side gradually sinking (if I breathe right) and stops my legs crossing.

There are plenty of top class swimmers who don't breathe bilaterally but most distance swimmers do (if you watch 800/1500 races or open water beyond).



2013-01-04 2:55 PM
in reply to: #4562528

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
Dan-L - 2013-01-04 1:48 PM

sand101 - 2013-01-04 8:07 PM

icemachineman - 2013-01-03 2:39 PM

I'm bi-lateral breathing, on every 3rd stroke which seems to be comfortable.

You're cheating yourself of the 50% more air you'd be getting if you'd breathe to one side.  You may seem to be comfortable, but the fact that you have to stop means you are driving yourself into oxygen debt (likely pace related, as well, but the breathing issue doesn't help).

The idea that bilateral breathing is somehow good for you is a myth.  

I've been swimming on an off pretty much all my life and I'd completely disagree with that as a broad brush statement.  For me (perhaps not for everybody) bilateral breathing gives my stroke much needed balance, stops my left side gradually sinking (if I breathe right) and stops my legs crossing.

There are plenty of top class swimmers who don't breathe bilaterally but most distance swimmers do (if you watch 800/1500 races or open water beyond).



the breathing is really a red-herring for the OP in this thread, but generally the ABILITY to breath either left or right is important.

IMO, relying on alternating 3 stroke breathing to balance your stroke does your stroke a disservice by acknowledging a problem but not addressing it. But having the option to breath every 3 strokes if you rswim demands it is invaluable...as is the option to breath every 2 or 4 to the right or the left. Options...it's all about options.
2013-01-04 3:06 PM
in reply to: #4562544

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)

AdventureBear - 2013-01-04 8:55 PM  relying on alternating 3 stroke breathing to balance your stroke does your stroke a disservice by acknowledging a problem but not addressing it.

hmm, that's really interesting, I need to think on that one..  thanks.

2013-01-04 3:08 PM
in reply to: #4562569

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
Dan-L - 2013-01-04 2:06 PM

AdventureBear - 2013-01-04 8:55 PM  relying on alternating 3 stroke breathing to balance your stroke does your stroke a disservice by acknowledging a problem but not addressing it.

hmm, that's really interesting, I need to think on that one..  thanks.



Sorry I hope that didn't come across harshly, just thinking fast. But something good to ponder. You "should" be able to breath to either side without going off course, tweaking a shoulder or kicking out a leg. Think of all the energy going into those extra movements that you balance out over the course of 6 strokes by breathing to each side. If you could use that energy to move you forward instead of moving water around you'd be faster, OR less tired
2013-01-04 3:10 PM
in reply to: #4562544

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
AdventureBear - 2013-01-04 3:55 PM
Dan-L - 2013-01-04 1:48 PM
sand101 - 2013-01-04 8:07 PM

icemachineman - 2013-01-03 2:39 PM

I'm bi-lateral breathing, on every 3rd stroke which seems to be comfortable.

You're cheating yourself of the 50% more air you'd be getting if you'd breathe to one side.  You may seem to be comfortable, but the fact that you have to stop means you are driving yourself into oxygen debt (likely pace related, as well, but the breathing issue doesn't help).

The idea that bilateral breathing is somehow good for you is a myth.  

I've been swimming on an off pretty much all my life and I'd completely disagree with that as a broad brush statement.  For me (perhaps not for everybody) bilateral breathing gives my stroke much needed balance, stops my left side gradually sinking (if I breathe right) and stops my legs crossing.

There are plenty of top class swimmers who don't breathe bilaterally but most distance swimmers do (if you watch 800/1500 races or open water beyond).

the breathing is really a red-herring for the OP in this thread, but generally the ABILITY to breath either left or right is important. IMO, relying on alternating 3 stroke breathing to balance your stroke does your stroke a disservice by acknowledging a problem but not addressing it. But having the option to breath every 3 strokes if you rswim demands it is invaluable...as is the option to breath every 2 or 4 to the right or the left. Options...it's all about options.

x2!  The concept of bilateral breathing in general is one of the most commonly misunderstood things relating to swimming.  I agree completely with Suzanne that if you need to breathe bilaterally in a set pattern to balance your stroke, then you most likely have a problem that isn't being corrected.

Now, the ability to breathe on either side as conditions (sun, waves, other swimmers, etc) dictate, or to provide the necessary oxygen to maintain your pace is an incredibly useful skill to have.

BTW, the best swimmers tend not to give their breathing pattern anymore thought than anyone else does biking or running.  Their pattern just changes to suit their needs, almost as if it were automatic.

 

2013-01-04 3:12 PM
in reply to: #4562573

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
AdventureBear - 2013-01-04 9:08 PM
Dan-L - 2013-01-04 2:06 PM

AdventureBear - 2013-01-04 8:55 PM  relying on alternating 3 stroke breathing to balance your stroke does your stroke a disservice by acknowledging a problem but not addressing it.

hmm, that's really interesting, I need to think on that one..  thanks.

Sorry I hope that didn't come across harshly, just thinking fast. But something good to ponder. You "should" be able to breath to either side without going off course, tweaking a shoulder or kicking out a leg. Think of all the energy going into those extra movements that you balance out over the course of 6 strokes by breathing to each side. If you could use that energy to move you forward instead of moving water around you'd be faster, OR less tired

Not at all!  I wasn't being sarcastic.  I don't want to derail the OP so might contact you elsewhere but I notice that when I only breathe right my left arm sinks below the surface by 10 inches or so because my shoulder is dragging it down and my left foot comes out a bit - I presume in an effort to keep balance.  It's not much but I used to be able to swim very well so I notice it.  

I need to get the books out again and do more of the drills that sorted this out before.

Thank you (honestly!)



2013-01-04 3:15 PM
in reply to: #4561343

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
erik.norgaard - 2013-01-04 1:07 AM

Try using active recovery instead of breathers: Alternate crawl and back stroke every 50, no break, no breathers. When you can do, say 20x50, like this, try repeats of 75 crawl + 25 back stroke, no break no breathers.

This is good advice.  I did much the same when I started out -- couldn't go more than 100m front crawl without getting seriously out of breath.  I just switched to a mix of breast and crawl.  It was actually good practice for what I ended up doing in the OWS Smile

I would also agree with the other posters who said that, at some point, it just clicks -- it took me a couple of months to get to 500m crawl, but once I did, I hit 800, 1000, 1200 and 1500 in the next four workouts. 

2013-01-04 3:56 PM
in reply to: #4560454

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
breathe more and slow down. I recently made a breakthrough in my swimming after finding another "gear" and slowing down a bit. I would use to start to fast in my sets and have to rest or sidestroke after 3-400 yards. Now, that I trust i won't sink, I have slowed down, breathe easier and feel like I can go all day. Now I stop because I'm thirsty after 1500 yards or so in a 2K-2.5K set.  Another note, swimming 3-4 times a week, all this past year has helped me. Just doing it more and more has helped. So much better than a year ago. I breathe on the left on every stroke once i'm going good. Yes, I can bilateral breathe, but I prefer ever stroke. good luck!
2013-01-04 3:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)

I'm a book learner also and these books were helpful to me and have been discussed on forum before:

Swim Speed Secrets by Sheila Taormina- (focuses on good PULL and breaks it down nicely) and Swim Smooth. Well worth it IMO.

2013-01-04 5:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
Dan-L - 2013-01-04 2:48 PM

There are plenty of top class swimmers who don't breathe bilaterally but most distance swimmers do (if you watch 800/1500 races or open water beyond).

Most distance swimmers do not swim bilaterally.  As the distances get longer getting oxygen is more and more important.  Watch the 1500m Olympic final.

2013-01-07 12:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)

Some great advice in here. 

I have a really difficult time thinking all is well with your stroke if a 50 is it.  The too fast theory makes some sense (what's your heart rate after you finish?  Compare it to running and you will know if you are going too fast).

Use a pull bouy and do a 200!  Nice and easy.  We all know getting more distance is hard.  For everyone.

That much time between swims is excessive.  Even if you are sprinting, 20 seconds should be more like it.

Keep at it man. 



2013-01-09 6:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
i've readvthis thread and had the exact same issue.  I couldn't make it more than 100 or 150 without a break.  Well, today I put totest a lot of what I read here and swam a non-stop 1,000.  I felt like I could have gone more, but needed to get to work.  I slowed down, kicked less (and not as hard), breathed more and made mini-milestones as I swam.  Thank you for the helpful advice!
2013-01-11 12:14 PM
in reply to: #4560454

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)

icemachineman - 2013-01-03 12:39 PM  I cannot seem to cut any time off the 30 second breaks , no matter how much I try !

My stroke analyzed by a good coach says that my stroke is pretty efficient, so what am I missing ???

There are 2 things that come quickly to mind:

1) you need to swim longer workouts to improve your conditioning. 1500 yd in a workout really won't get you to the next step.

2) you need a better coach. If a coach can not give you advice that will help you improve your swimming they're not doing their job. If you are not following their advice you're not doing yours.

 

A quick comment on bilateral breathing. I swam for years without learning it, but as I started doing longer distances in workouts I found it helped me keep from developing muscle spasms in my neck. It is also a great help when swimming open water for the reasons stated above. However, when race time comes I breath as mush and as often as I need to get the oxygen I need at any given time in the race.



Edited by E=H2O 2013-01-11 12:18 PM
2013-01-11 1:29 PM
in reply to: #4561343

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)

Most of the above advice is solid. I would only add that one 'trick' that may help is to focus on reducing your stroke count per lap.

Basically try to swim each 25m with the smallest number of strokes - count them as you go.

This will do two things: 1.) It will force you to lenghten your stroke & extend the glide period, and 2.) take your mind off trying to go fast.

 

P.S.   Are you overkicking by any chance? Kicking takes up a significant amount of aerobic capacity but only provides a fraction of the propulsion. Try swimming with a pull-bouy between the legs and not kicking. If that makes a big difference then you need to re-think your kick technique & intensity

 

 



Edited by mgalanter 2013-01-11 1:39 PM
2013-01-15 12:56 PM
in reply to: #4560454

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)

A few others have said it, but I'll pile on:  GET. MORE. AIR. 

Being able to breath on either side is important as a skill (as others said - waves, sun, other swimmers, etc.), but bilateral breathing should not be used as a balance to your stroke.  Also, if you are trying to slow your stroke and continue to breath every 3rd, you are only getting less air.  I saw the greatest gains when I slowed down (to about 1:50/100) and started breathing every other stroke (i.e., every time on my left for awhile and then every time on my right for awhile).  

Slow, easy, and with plenty of oxygen and you feel like you can go forever.  Once you get to that point, then work on speed and everything else.

2013-01-31 10:12 PM
in reply to: #4562258

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
yep,wear jammers


2013-01-31 10:20 PM
in reply to: #4561343

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)

try minimising your kick - it uses a lot of energy and HR increases quite quickly.  Unless i'm doing 25-50m sprints I try to not kick at all...I can do 3km set no rest no issue - I used to have to rest every 50m....

I breathe to one side purely because my coach said breathe when you need to breathe don't over think it.  I try to breathe to one side going up the pool and the other side coming back....

Just some thoughts - I'm no expert...

2013-01-31 10:22 PM
in reply to: #4561343

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
yeah, I think i will try flipping over on my back in between 50's and see how that goes. Thanks Erik
2013-01-31 10:23 PM
in reply to: #4560674

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
gonna try that, thanks !
2013-01-31 10:25 PM
in reply to: #4562188

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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
holy crap! that looks like some intense numbers for a "newbie" swimmer !
2013-01-31 10:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
I can tell my left side stroke goes to crap if I don't breathe bilaterally, so in my opinion it is not a myth but the cold hard truth for me. It may not matter to some swimmers, but my left arm/shoulder is much weaker than the right for some reason,and I still have to work that issue out, but breathing bilaterally helps me keep it balanced out.


2013-01-31 10:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)

icemachineman - 2013-02-01 3:30 PM I can tell my left side stroke goes to crap if I don't breathe bilaterally, so in my opinion it is not a myth but the cold hard truth for me. It may not matter to some swimmers, but my left arm/shoulder is much weaker than the right for some reason,and I still have to work that issue out, but breathing bilaterally helps me keep it balanced out.

I spent my whole swimming life breathing to the left, i turn up at masters swim two years ago Coach can't figure out what's going wrong - I'm exhausted after 50m.  He identifies what seems to be like a bicycle kick especially as I breathe....so he works and works on that kick then he says let's breathe to the other side....like a miracle - suddenly I'm kicking properly and going faster and longer!

I still do drills to breathe left (good for OWS in the choppy conditions) and we do bilateral drills etc.

I've now been told to minimise my kicking altogether because I am fast with a pull buoy so my kick isn't helping much!  I'm one of those people who is slower with fins coz I don't kick!

Anyway - rambling on - you will get there, the strangest things may be the solution!

2013-02-01 6:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)
I am working on bilateral breathing for all the reasons given already.  However while I can easily swim over a mile breathing on one side I can only manage a couple hundred yards breathing bilaterally.  I am improving but it will take time.
2013-02-01 8:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)

blynott - 2013-02-01 4:45 AM I am working on bilateral breathing for all the reasons given already.  However while I can easily swim over a mile breathing on one side I can only manage a couple hundred yards breathing bilaterally.  I am improving but it will take time.

 

Like you said, it just takes time.  I had a similar issue learning to breathe to both sides, mostly because I wouldn't get a decent breath every time I had to breathe right so I was almost breathing sixes until I figured it out.  After a month or two of working in bilateral breathing and breathing to my weak side to my normal workouts I eventually settled on a 3 3 2 breathing pattern that works well for me.

 

2013-02-01 9:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim training for continuous mile swim (no luck)

Don't wear trunks.  Like others have said, wear jammers (or a speedo).  If you think your bilateral breathing is what is holding your stroke together, try some drills (breathe only left or only right for 100 yards or so).  Are you doing flip turns?  Throw in a touch and go every 100 to get an extra breath. Try pull buoy, just to see if your legs are dragging (trunks make that worse).  Swim workout minimum 2,000 yds.  Each time you swim, include a set where you go an "extra" 100 without rest, until you are up to 1,000 without a break.  I am no expert, but I can swim at 1:50/100 (yds) for 1,000 yds, and only slightly slower for 2,000.  No way could I swim a 1:30 for more than 100 yds, and I may never be able too (I'm 55, and it is tough for an old dog to learn new tricks).  My swim workout now is 2,500 M, often with just two short breaks.

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