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2014-05-13 7:19 PM
in reply to: BigDH

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Kansas
Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread

Originally posted by BigDH 

The thing about this diet is that you don't need to eat. So there is no reason to cook.

Aaaah but I LOVE to cook

Last night I made a lemon chicken salad. Basically cooked/cubed chicken breast, celery, red onion, capers, red grapes (limited these) and a sauce that was Greek yogurt, lemon juice, salt and pepper. Pretty good. Going to tackle a noodle-free lasagna tomorrow - basically layered ground beef, ricotta cheese/egg, red sauce and mozzarella cheese.

I made some grain free orange scones the other day and while they were grain/gluten free (made from almond flour, coconut flour, splenda, eggs, etc.) I went overboard and ate 5 (half the batch) the first day. This is why I can't even have replacement comfort foods around me



2014-06-03 12:22 PM
in reply to: lisac957


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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Good Morning. Wow! I can’t believe that I’ve found this thread! It has taken me 3 days to finally make it through the entire thing but I have and what a wealth of knowledge you all have to share. Thank you!
A little back ground on myself. Let me start by saying that I’m not a “fast” runner or competitor. My sport of choice is triathlon, just sprints at this point but I plan on moving up to a HIM for my 40th birthday (2017).
Anyway, I have just recently returned to running/cycling following a 5 month break from last season (long cold Ohio winter, full time student, family obligations) I started running again in March and much to my surprise within about a month I was running at just about 20sec below may fastest pace at the end of last season. (PR 26:02, 5K)
Last fall I ran my first sprint Tri and I held my own through the swim and outpaced ½ the pack on the bike but I completely ran out of gas in the run. I think the reason for this is twofold:
1. Not enough long “endurance” (I didn’t regularly run distances longer than those in the race) training and brick runs prior to the actual tri.
2. Most importantly I just completely ran out of gas after about 45min of racing! I believe this to be because of the “high carb” mentality I was using to fuel at the time.
So this season I decided to attempt to go the keto route (after a lot of research, I don’t want to risk my health on a “fad”, but the science on nutritional ketosis seems even more sound than the diets we’ve all been fed for years) and hope to improve my performance and endurance and maybe actually be able to compete as opposed to just participating in my age group this fall.
With all that being said, here are the results that I’ve seen so far in my personal training: (I have been in full ketosis for ~25+ days) Although, weight loss was not my motivation it is a nice little perk of this diet, all told I’m down probably 15-20lbs in about a month. I haven’t been on the scale in 2 weeks so I’ll keep you posted.
The first 1.5 weeks of the transition SUCK! I had no energy and pretty much felt crappy for just about the entire time. After this period there was a period where it felt like I got a shot in the arm and felt really good. Since that time my energy has been more consistent and I feel MUCH better!
I have noticed in my training that I don’t have the top end that I had before starting this diet. As I mentioned before I’m not a fast runner but before the diet I was comfortable just pacing myself at 9:00mi/min and just kind of hanging out there for the 5k distance, I had to really push myself to break into the 26min 5K. Now that seems to be a thing of the past, now it’s all I can do to hit that 9:20 pace let alone improve on it. However, if I stay in a very low HR zone (>=143<=150 BPM) I think I could run forever, where before the diet change after about 40-50 minutes I was toast and running on fumes. I’ve noticed this same thing on the bike as well my “long & slow” seem to be better but my top end is gone. (update: I have found that I can run at a faster pace as I ran 4+ miles at an average 9:30/mi pace and other than being winded I maintained the entire time, the fastest since the keto diet began)



My typical diet for the last 3+ weeks has been:
65.3+% fat
21.1% protein
-13.6%carb (equaling about 27-50g, with no processed carbs, all carbs are from whole foods (no grains), limited fruits, through strict monitoring of my diet I have remained in solid ketosis the past 25+ days))
With all of that being said I have a couple of questions.
1. Is it typical for my performance ceiling to vaporize with this change in diet, and my working towards fat adaptation?
2. If this is normal how would you recommend I train? This is all new to me and the low and slow routine does not come easily to me.
3. If I keep training low and slow will my base (speed) improve?
4. I know everyone is different but is there an average time that I could anticipate it taking for me to reach my pre-keto paces again?


Thanks everyone!
lost
2014-06-03 12:48 PM
in reply to: lostinthewoods

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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
I will take a stab and try to add some science.

1. Is it typical for my performance ceiling to vaporize with this change in diet, and my working towards fat adaptation?
Yes, I have found that mu high end, all out Z4-5 range drops, in the beginning. I have found that with time I can get to my carb fuel performance. The issue is in anaerobic metabolism you are using a larger portion of glycogen from your muscles and liver rather than then the metabolism of fatty acids.

2. If this is normal how would you recommend I train? This is all new to me and the low and slow routine does not come easily to me.

Train to how you feel, let your body tell you. If you feel too slow move faster, if you are in pain stop or change. If you are trying to get faster stronger, you need to move outside of your comfort level to make those gains.

3. If I keep training low and slow will my base (speed) improve?

Yes, if you want to get faster you need to do it more, it’s that simple. See below. Just like swimming, volume is a huge factor.

4. I know everyone is different but is there an average time that I could anticipate it taking for me to reach my pre-keto paces again?

There are concerns with over training, as I stated above you need to listen to your body, you need to be smart about it, Like try not to increase distance more than 10% a week, I look at time rather than distance (I know time is constant) I do know that I can get away with a little more distance one I get to 90+ min runs, I can add 10-15 mins a week, but I try to run a min of 5k a run, I know it goes against my time rule, but it’s my minimum.
2014-06-03 9:52 PM
in reply to: #4958600


4

Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Thanks for the input GotBackUp! Glad to here that there is some hope for getting back to my lack luster speed while in ketosis. The past two weeks I've been running with the maffetone school of though, you have to go slower to get faster. And the science seems to support this school of thought when it comes to fat adaptation. Does anyone else utilize the maffetone system while eating a keto diet? I would be interested in hearing your results. I'm going to try to give it the next 3 weeks and then run another time trial mile and see if there is any improvement. I hope there is improvement but as of yet if there is any it is mild at best.

Thanks all!
lost
2014-06-04 7:11 AM
in reply to: lostinthewoods

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Apple Valley, Minnesota
Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Well I started going keto late last July, I was running 30+ miles a week and In early September I ran a 22 min 5k with a 6:50 mi split. It was a PR, I probably could have cranked it up, but was unsure of how my body would respond.
2014-06-05 6:57 AM
in reply to: GotBackup


4

Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Wow that's pretty fast GotBackUp! I'm not to that level yet but I'm still working on it. I think I am seeing some changes in the the low and slow training. I'm going to give it another 3 weeks and retest and see how it works out. Last night I did run some speed intervals and it felt much better than the last time I tried them. I do believe that my fat adaptation is improving. Now just to get the rest of me in line!

Thanks again!

lost

PS. So how is everyone else doing?


2014-06-05 1:07 PM
in reply to: lostinthewoods

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Apple Valley, Minnesota
Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread

I think I am seeing some changes in the the low and slow training.

Well Training is exactly that, you need to work on base and slowly increment distance to run farther/longer, you will get faster doing that at the shorter distances, Intervals are great for speed training, there are tons of tobata sets, one I can think of is 3x ( 4 min @ 5k Pace, 8 x (20 sec Sprint, 10 sec Rest)) its a 24 min workout and best if done on a track, its painful and hard. But that is speed work, I have vomited more then once from this workout.

I'm going to give it another 3 weeks and retest and see how it works out.

Ketosis is funny, some people cane get into it in a few days others take 45-60 days, I don't think 3 weeks is a good enough sample, but in those 3 weeks you could acclimate well to being fat adapted or into deep ketosis. again Ketosis is a in or out of thing, if you are peeing any shade of purple you are making ketones.

Last night I did run some speed intervals and it felt much better than the last time I tried them. I do believe that my fat adaptation is improving.
You will probably notice the most gains on the long runs, doing interval work (anaerobic) you are burning a greater percentage of your muscle and liver glycogen, at the slower Z2(aerobic) range you will be burning more fat, but gram for gram fat is more then twice the bang for the buck, 4 ATP to 9 ATP. The science and math are rather interesting, The statement a calorie is a calorie is true, however they are not all equal the source depends on how your body stores it and how it is used that's where the difference is huge, IE Insulin is not really a factor in storage and usage of Fats, but it is in the consumption of carbohydrates, the burning or protein has some issues too as gluconeogenesis can target your tissue and organs(not a good thing). So you are basically left to choose between carbs or fats. I think the science points to fats, though there is a split on that, but that's a choice everyone makes. If you are fat adapted or in ketosis you are very unlikely to bonk, as your body has an alternative to glycogen. Glycogen is only stored in the liver and muscle, you have a capacity (~ 2000 calories worth I think), Fat on the other hand, as a lot of people can prove is limitless, if you figure a pound of fat is about 3500 calories and you multiply that by you fat, and you have a fat reactor to power you.

***NOTE: I know the exact math is a it depends, but for the sake of easy math and to simplify the science I approximated it.

2014-07-09 11:02 AM
in reply to: GotBackup

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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Can't believe it - have been sticking with about 25-30 gms of carbs/day and not feeling so energetic working out. Can't do the 1000 cal/day anymore (after three months) but at 1200-1300 my weight has been steady for a few weeks.

So I decided it's time to do carbs to train. Had half a cup of cereal with almond milk and dressed for a run (just at 2-3 miles). Water pressure gone and had to have company come out to look at tank/pump. So here I sit, a little freaked out about the carbs and not working out. Now it's noon on a hot, muggy day

Will get out there this afternoon, but was focused on the pre and post fueling thing.
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